Groundwork Guides

[kengs333]

Everybody who works for the schoolboards or was on social assistance when the Harris government cut benefits can bitch about it now, but the fact is that the Bob Rae - N.D.P. government and the previous two Liberal governments almost bankrupted Ontario. Harris had to do the dirty work to make the cuts needed to balance the budget, along with cutting the excessive tax burden of Ontarians to stimulate economic growth needed to restart the economy.

The problem was the Liberals, not the NDP. Rae inherited a hopeless situation and tried to take steps to rectify the problem when the economy was very bad, and he gets unfairly blamed as a result. And who's doing the blaming? Conservatives, of course, even though Brian Mulroney during this time had been inflating the national debt considerably. One example of what Rae did was to institute so called "Rae Days" a measure that was continued by the PCs. And as for the PCs balancing the budget, they left the current Liberal government with a heft debt to pay off. Hardly what I would call fiscally responsible.

[WIP]

The problem was the Liberals, not the NDP. Rae inherited a hopeless situation and tried to take steps to rectify the problem when the economy was very bad, and he gets unfairly blamed as a result. And who's doing the blaming? Conservatives, of course, even though Brian Mulroney during this time had been inflating the national debt considerably. One example of what Rae did was to institute so called "Rae Days" a measure that was continued by the PCs. And as for the PCs balancing the budget, they left the current Liberal government with a heft debt to pay off. Hardly what I would call fiscally responsible.

I'm not buying! It's true that Peterson hid a two billion dollar deficit until just prior to election day, but Rae's finance minister - Pink Floyd Laughren, turned it into a 10 billion dollar deficit; and doubling the size of the provincial debt, they tried to hide the size of their last budget deficit by selling government assets and moving some debts off budget -- things that would get an equivalent comptroller in industry, thrown in jail. And Mulroney wasn't a financial genius either, or he would have realized that a recession was a bad time to introduce a new sales tax.

Whatever your ideology is, the facts are: Bob Rae didn't know a thing about economics, and his finance minister tried to tax his way out of annual deficits and couldn't understand why they kept getting bigger! There may not be a lot of things about Harris to warm people's hearts, but he did have enough sense to realize that tax rates in Ontario were too high and the social welfare system was becoming so much more generous than other provinces under the Rae Government, that people on the dole in other provinces were moving to Ontario just to file welfare claims.

[kengs333]

I'm not buying! It's true that Peterson hid a two billion dollar deficit until just prior to election day, but Rae's finance minister - Pink Floyd Laughren, turned it into a 10 billion dollar deficit; and doubling the size of the provincial debt, they tried to hide the size of their last budget deficit by selling government assets and moving some debts off budget -- things that would get an equivalent comptroller in industry, thrown in jail. And Mulroney wasn't a financial genius either, or he would have realized that a recession was a bad time to introduce a new sales tax.

Whatever your ideology is, the facts are: Bob Rae didn't know a thing about economics, and his finance minister tried to tax his way out of annual deficits and couldn't understand why they kept getting bigger! There may not be a lot of things about Harris to warm people's hearts, but he did have enough sense to realize that tax rates in Ontario were too high and the social welfare system was becoming so much more generous than other provinces under the Rae Government, that people on the dole in other provinces were moving to Ontario just to file welfare claims.

So detached from reality you're not worth the time. You stay out west and by all means gain your independence so that we don't have to keep supporting people stuck in the 19th century.

[Canadian Blue]

So detached from reality you're not worth the time. You stay out west and by all means gain your independence so that we don't have to keep supporting people stuck in the 19th century.

Living under John A MacDonald beats living under the rule of the German Democratic Republic in the mid 1980's.

But from what I understand the economic power is moving to the west, it seems that Alberta, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia, are all now have provinces. What can be said of Ontario's economy exactly.

Perhaps when you realize that it's often better that you let people spend their money the way they want instead of trying to coerce it from them to subsidize an unprofitable industry.

[kengs333]

Perhaps when you realize that it's often better that you let people spend their money the way they want instead of trying to coerce it from them to subsidize an unprofitable industry.

So you agree that your Conservative government should stop providing welfare for corporations?

[WIP]

So detached from reality you're not worth the time. You stay out west and by all means gain your independence so that we don't have to keep supporting people stuck in the 19th century.

Oh! And exactly how far west is Hamilton? You mindless, socialist nutjob! It's idiots like you that will keep me from going anywhere near the NDP for the rest of my life!

You concocted some BS story about Bob Rae being hamstrung by debt and a weak economy left over from the Peterson Government, because the facts don't support NDP mythology! They turned Peterson's deficit into annual 10 billion dollar a year deficits, and in one term in office, Bob Rae doubled Ontario's provincial debt before he left in 95. Let's pause and reflect on the good old days of Ontario's first and last N.D.P. government:

The Rae government's first budget, introduced in 1991, increased social spending to mitigate the economic slowdown and projected a record deficit of $9.1 billion. Finance Minister Floyd Laughren argued that Ontario made a decision to target the effects of the recession rather than the deficit, and said that the budget would create or protect 70,000 jobs. It targeted more money to social assistance, social housing and child benefits, and raised taxes for high-income earners while lowering rates for 700,000 low-income Ontarians.[44]

A few years later, journalist Thomas Walkom described the budget as following a Keynesian orthodoxy, spending money in the public sector to stimulate employment and productivity. Unfortunately, it did not achieve its stated purpose due to the unforeseen severity of the recession. Walkom described the budget as "the worst of both worlds", angering the business community but not doing enough to provide for public relief. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Rae

Yeah! Worst of both worlds is an understatement! Common sense would lead most people to scrap strategies that don't work, and try something new. But every year, the Rae Government increased taxes, increased government spending, and waited for a turnaround in the economy. Instead of creating conditions that would encourage companies to hire new staff, Rae started "Jobs Ontario", a multimillion dollar boondoggle that only provided jobs for the bureaucrats who created the program!

With all that, I'm surprised that Bob Rae was allowed to reinvent himself and come close to winning in his bid to become Liberal leader. If Stephan Dion heads for exit after this election, I hope that there are other prospects available to put an end to his bid to do for Canada what he did for Ontario!

[AngusThermopyle]

You stay out west and by all means gain your independence so that we don't have to keep supporting people stuck in the 19th century.

This makes no sense. Ontario does not support Alberta, Alberta injects huge amounts of money into the economy and if anything could be said it would have to be that Alberta supports a large percentage of the rest of the country. Next up will be Saskatchewan with their oil fields. Then everyone in Ontario can start hating them as well while they hold their hands out for Western generated revenue.

Edited September 18, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[White Doors]

That's a pretty sad comment, actually, especially coming from someone from NB. All I'm saying is that Ontario can easily go on it's own; that means our money stays in the province (country) and doesn't get doled out to provinces that can't develop their economy. As I'm sure you well know, NB is the second highest recipient per capita of our money, money that could be better spent on social services and infrastructure here.

I think it's sad that you are so provincial in outlook and mindset.

[White Doors]

So detached from reality you're not worth the time. You stay out west and by all means gain your independence so that we don't have to keep supporting people stuck in the 19th century.

He's from Hamilton, Einstein

[charter.rights]

I think it's sad that you are so provincial in outlook and mindset.

I disagree. I think the way to democratic freedom and back to the original concepts of a federation is to follow the way of the Bloc and create provincially-focused parties. Government would then become a coalition of similar interests.

[White Doors]

I disagree. I think the way to democratic freedom and back to the original concepts of a federation is to follow the way of the Bloc and create provincially-focused parties. Government would then become a coalition of similar interests.

Look up the meaning of provincial in the context that I used and write a 4 page double spaced essay on how not properly understanding the English language can make you look dumb.

[kengs333]

He's from Hamilton, Einstein

No, really?!?!?!?!?!

WIP stands for Western Independence Party in my books until otherwise explained. Just because a person claims to be from a certain location doesn't mean that they are, or that they aren't originally from another location. You should know.

[kengs333]

I think it's sad that you are so provincial in outlook and mindset.

There's absolutely no problem with that because Ontario encompasses a geographic size similar in size or larger than most countries on this planet. The more localized that governance is, the better that it is for individual citizens; and the more connected a citizen feels to their government/politicians, the better it is for society in general. Therefore, having a "provincial outlook and mindset" is hardly unsophisticated or narrow, as you would have it. Having a strong connection with and sense of place is good, and naturally in the modern world this is something that gets discredited.

[Canadian Blue]

I actually fully agree that Tories shouldn't dole out corporate welfare. However I'll choose them over the alternatives as the Libs and NDP would be much worse.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Canadian Blue

[White Doors]

No, really?!?!?!?!?!

WIP stands for Western Independence Party in my books until otherwise explained. Just because a person claims to be from a certain location doesn't mean that they are, or that they aren't originally from another location. You should know.

You know what they say about assumptions!

Something about looking like an ass?

lol

[White Doors]

There's absolutely no problem with that because Ontario encompasses a geographic size similar in size or larger than most countries on this planet. The more localized that governance is, the better that it is for individual citizens; and the more connected a citizen feels to their government/politicians, the better it is for society in general. Therefore, having a "provincial outlook and mindset" is hardly unsophisticated or narrow, as you would have it. Having a strong connection with and sense of place is good, and naturally in the modern world this is something that gets discredited.

I see, so do you advocate seperation from Confederation for Ontario?

[kengs333]

You know what they say about assumptions!

Something about looking like an ass?

lol

Not making an assumption; that's what it stands for, until evidence to the contrary is provided.

lol

[kengs333]

I see, so do you advocate seperation from Confederation for Ontario?

It's always an option, but I don't advocate it.

[WIP]

No, really?!?!?!?!?!

WIP stands for Western Independence Party in my books until otherwise explained. Just because a person claims to be from a certain location doesn't mean that they are, or that they aren't originally from another location. You should know.

And it never occurred to you that an acronym can have more than one meaning! You have conditioned your mind to believe that every question has only one possible answer, and more than likely, you are a conspiracy theorist who believes there are no accidents or coincidences -- every event has some mysterious, secret cabal working behind the scenes to control world events. You likely have other issues that you decide what the answers are before you look at any evidence.

Interesting that a google search doesn't turn up Western Independence Party in the first page of results even though this is the conclusion you jumped to! There's: "Web Inquiry Projects," "Waste Implementation Programme," "Women in Publishing," "Women in Property, and finally "Work In Progress," or alternatively "Work In Process," -- a term I recall when I was an inventory control clerk many years ago, and it refers to unfinished products in between the raw materials and finished goods stages of manufacturing. Since I don't seem to enjoy the absolute metaphysical certainty that many people walk around with, and I have changed my mind on many issues over the years, I thought this would make a good user name. But I shortened the screen name to WIP because I seemed to get a lot of responses that shortened it for me.

And there's your Western Independence conspiracy! On other pages I found two bloggers who use WIP in the title, but for the record, Western Independence Party doesn't show up until page 8, even though that's the only meaning you can believe in. Could be that you are seeing Western separatists hiding under every rock and behind every tree!

Every so often, people should step back and evaluate how closely their core beliefs match outside reality -- it may be time for you to do a recalibration!