Senior Tory Minister to be named judge?

[Bryan]

I have tried to limit my comments on his personal life but it now all anyone can talk about in Manitoba when it comes to Toews in the last days. It will only get worse as his divorce proceedings go public. It promises to be very messy.

Every family has their share of issues. You are completely mistaken if you think the bible belt is nothing but judgmental. Some of the greatest men of the bible did far worse things in their lives. Forgiving others just as God forgave them is one of their core beliefs. It won't be anything. He won by nearly 20,000 votes last time. If he runs again, he might only win by 15,000.

[Bryan]

No. Please pay attention to the specific point at issue.

The YOA is the law of the land.

No it isn't. Has not been since 2003.

Besides, I didn't change the subject at all, YOU are the one who first speculated as to what the woman meant, I only corrected you as to what is closer to what she probably really meant. If anything, your appeal to wikipedia is the real red herring here.

Doesn't it sound like she's hoping for judges to deliver particular outcomes, irrespective of the law?

Or put it this way, if it will help: tell me what sort of evidence you would accept as suggesting that "judicial activism" is essentially used as code for "insufficiently socially conservative rulings" rather than "rulings that construct rather than following the law of the land"? Then we can keep an eye out, you and me, for evidence of that sort...

Again, no. There are plenty of real penalties that are within the letter of the current law that can be imposed on youths. The problem is, most judges are going for the lightest, least punitive options. Serious prison sentences can be imposed, it's just that far too often, they are not imposed. Every offender over the age of 14 is eligible to be tried as an adult. For serious crimes, and repeat offenders, try them adults as the default, not as the last resort.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Bryan

[jdobbin]

Every family has their share of issues. You are completely mistaken if you think the bible belt is nothing but judgmental. Some of the greatest men of the bible did far worse things in their lives. Forgiving others just as God forgave them is one of their core beliefs. It won't be anything. He won by nearly 20,000 votes last time. If he runs again, he might only win by 15,000.

It is already damaging his credibility on issues on family values. He had complete authority on this subject prior to the Natioanl Post report on his divorce. He has had to defer questions in Parliament and when he is questioned on the sanctity of marriage, he doesn't answer at at.

Yes, this has hurt Toews in a riding that is very unforgiving on the subject. If they could drive out a generally decent man like Jake Epp, you can bet they would make Toews' life a misery.

It also puts more into question his possible judicial appointment. It starts looking like a golden parachute for a man who might need a job because his reputation is damaged in his home community.

Edited May 25, 2008 by jdobbin

[Bryan]

If they could drive out a generally decent man like Jake Epp, you can bet they would make Toews' life a misery.

You need to provide a cite for where Jake Epp was driven out. He never lost an election in Provencher. He retired after 20 yrs in office at a time when the whole party was imploding.

[jdobbin]

You need to provide a cite for where Jake Epp was driven out. He never lost an election in Provencher. He retired after 20 yrs in office at a time when the whole party was imploding.

In the debate on abortion in the late 1988-1989, Epp came in for huge criticism because he was the Health minister. Mulroney moved him from Health to Energy to avoid the relentless criticism he was facing for letting any abortion happen as minister. He was kicked out of his own church, the church he helped to found. I never did hear if they reconciled that matter but it was in the Winnipeg Free Press at the time and I believe it is in the Mulroney book.

In short, the Mennonites of Provencher shunned Epp in several important aspects of his life. When he left politics, he took a job with Trans-Canada Pipelines outside of Manitoba which removed him from the harsh social climate of Steinbach.

I don't have a linked cite for the issue in regards to his church but anyone who knows Steinbach can attest to it being very unforgiving in regards to religion. The region was furious with Epp, Campbell and Mulroney for not invoking the notwithstanding clause on the abortion issue.

You are free to believe anything you want about the issue of Epp but I was intimately involved in the political scene in 1988 and the Tories got hammered both provincially and federally by the Liberals at the time. Some of it was the religious right sitting on their hands in 1988. Epp saw his margin decrease significantly in the 1988 election. By 1993, it was evident that Epp was going to face a significant challenge from David Iftody who came from the increasingly active Roman Catholic community. That community liked Chretien a lot.

Epp was feeling more alienated from his party and his community in late 1992. He left his party some years later to support Alliance, one of the first Tories to do so. He left his community and has lived in Toronto for some time now.

As far as this pertains to Toews, it means he has lot credibility on a major issue in the riding: that of marriage. It is possible he could win another election. Given the competition he faces, I don't doubt that he might. But he is not a bit of an embarrassment for the Tories and his opportunity for advancement might be blunted.

It puts into question his ambiguity about whether he would accept the judge's job.

In any event, I still say a 2 year wait in preferable for *all* politicians. This was something that Toews seemed to agree with once upon a time.

Edited May 26, 2008 by jdobbin

[Bryan]

I don't have a linked cite for the issue in regards to his church

I didn't expect that you would.

anyone who knows Steinbach can attest to it being very unforgiving in regards to religion.

I know Steinbach very well. Lots of family and friends in the area. All died in the wool Mennonites. Never met a single one who is anything like what you're describing. The most forgiving and understanding people you will ever meet. Mennonites in the region didn't like way things went with the abortion issue one bit, but they also fully understood that's the way things go in politics.

Epp saw his margin decrease significantly in the 1988 election

Sure, but weak support by his standards meant he still got almost 5,000 more votes than the other 4 candidates combined.

[jdobbin]

I didn't expect that you would.

I know Steinbach very well. Lots of family and friends in the area. All died in the wool Mennonites. Never met a single one who is anything like what you're describing. The most forgiving and understanding people you will ever meet. Mennonites in the region didn't like way things went with the abortion issue one bit, but they also fully understood that's the way things go in politics.

If you know Steinbach so well, you can ask someone what happened in regards to Epp and the church he founded. It should be known to someone there. The straw that broke the camel's back was Bill C-43 which Epp helped to craft with Campbell. The anger in Provencher came in the form of asking Epp to leave the church he helped to found. Mulroney had mercy on Epp and moved him to Energy after that. I can't find a link for it but I do know that Epp is often called a former member of the Mennonite Brethren.

http://www.multiculturalcanada.ca/ecp/cont...mennonites.html

In subsequent federal elections a dozen or so ran for office, and some eight were elected to Parliament. Jake Epp, a former member of the Mennonite Brethren in Steinbach, was first elected in 1972 and was the only Mennonite ever to be appointed to the federal cabinet. He served his party and constituency with distinction until he resigned in 1993.

Ask why he is a former member fro the family and friends there.

Epp was personally against abortion and tried to make a law that would not be struck down by the Supreme Court. He often said that God himself wished him to be Parliament. The abortion issue must have torn him apart. It certainly was a major issue in Steinbach.

As far as not very forgiving, I suggest you read Miriam Toews book. It talks a lot about shunning.

Sure, but weak support by his standards meant he still got almost 5,000 more votes than the other 4 candidates combined.

True. However, in 1993, he was going to be challenged by Reform on issues such as abortion and western alienation. David Iftody was a beneficiary of the split in 1993. Epp might have been able to overcome that but Provencher was was now split on both the Tories and on Epp himself. It wasn't very pleasant.

It is quite possible that Vic Toews could win again in Provencher but there is no doubt that he will be damaged when it comes to the issue of family values.

None of this should come as a surprise to you or anyone who knows Provencher.

Edited May 26, 2008 by jdobbin

[Bryan]

You keep claiming that he founded his church. Steinbach Mennonite Brethren was founded in 1927, over a decade before this Jake Epp was born.

[Kitchener]

No it isn't. Has not been since 2003.

Good grief. The YCJA, then.

Besides, I didn't change the subject at all, YOU are the one who first speculated as to what the woman meant, I only corrected you as to what is closer to what she probably really meant.

No. Your story explicitly raised attitudes towards legislation underlying "He should be a tough judge"; on this account, judicial activism is still more likely to be what she was advocating. So your explanation for why this wasn't advocating activism was confused at best. If anything, you were attributing far more of an explicitly activist flavor to her remarks than I would have. I suspect she just doesn't care one way or the other about activism -- she just wants someone to teach them damn kids a lesson. That this practically amounts to favoring activism is unlikely to concern people having that attitude.

Again, no. There are plenty of real penalties that are within the letter of the current law that can be imposed on youths. The problem is, most judges are going for the lightest, least punitive options.

Never mind that this empirical claim is wholly uncontaminated by evidence; we've seen again and again that bleading heart librul judgez!! is an article of faith for a whole political demographic, so I recognize there is no way to get you to actually support such argle-bargle. In any case, the Act precisely enjoins light or no sentences in a wide class of cases. Do you think she really did mean, "...unless those car-stealing kids were first-time offenders committing a non-violent crime with no clear evidence of likely recidivism, of course. Then they should avoid sentencing and have extrajudicial sanctions instead"? Or should judges legislate from the bench instead?

[jdobbin]

You keep claiming that he founded his church. Steinbach Mennonite Brethren was founded in 1927, over a decade before this Jake Epp was born.

You are correct. It was the Epp family that was one of the families that started the church. Just asking around this morning and I was told it was the Friesens, the Reimers, the Toews, the Epps and the Penners who helped found the church.

Mennonite churches have split off several times over the decades. Probably the biggest split was over whether Mennonites should be in business. It was a tough decision made in the 1960s and the 1970 that saw Mennonites move from agriculture to a variety of business operations.

Mennonite churches have split off routinely before and after that due to disagreements over social issues, politics, theology and personal frictions.

The abortion debate in the 1980s was a huge issue due to Jake Epp's part in it. It is a minor footnote in the grand scheme of things. However, personal shunnings happened as result of it.

The latest issue to tear the local community apart was last year's application to allow a liquor license to a restaurant.

Abortion and marriage are of great importance in Provencher. Toews' won massively on opposing same sex marriage and on advocating marriage as a family value. I believe Toews could win this riding again but for a substantial portion of the community, his personal life might cause them to sit out an election or vote elsewhere. The victory of David Iftody is a testament to that.