Visual Identification of Voters

[ScottSA]

Why don't people do their own research? The legislation has either just been tabled or it's about to be, and the "Muslim community" is saying two things at once, as usual.

[Guest American Woman]

The mail in vote would also have to be photo IDed in advance.

Muslim women show their faces in countries where it is required for ID such as a passport or driver's licence. I don't think it will pose a problem.

It is a bit of overkill though since all anyone needed to vote prior was two pieces of ID or a voter's registration card.

Photo IDing is different from showing your face at the voting booth, and even if one were photo ID'd when picking up an absentee ballot there's no guarentee that the ballot is going to be filled out by the person ID'd; I imagine all they have to go on is the signature, so why isn't that good enough at the voting booths?

I can't think of anyone besides a Muslim wearing a veil who wouldn't be showing their face, so this must be aimed at Muslim women. I have to wonder why-- I wonder if it's been a problem.

[maldon_road]

Does anybody have a link to this legislation? Thanks.

Canada Elections Act

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/E-...h=50&page=6

Section 143

143. (1) Each elector, on arriving at the polling station, shall give his or her name and address to the deputy returning officer and the poll clerk, and, on request, to a candidate or his or her representative.

Proof of identity and residence

(2) If the poll clerk determines that the elector’s name and address appear on the list of electors or that the elector is allowed to vote under section 146, 147, 148 or 149, then, subject to subsection (3), the elector shall provide to the deputy returning officer and the poll clerk the following proof of his or her identity and residence:

(a) one piece of identification issued by a Canadian government, whether federal, provincial or local, or an agency of that government, that contains a photograph of the elector and his or her name and address; or

(b ) two pieces of identification authorized by the Chief Electoral Officer each of which establish the elector’s name and at least one of which establishes the elector’s address.

Bill C-465

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/P...e=1&File=24

Bill C-6

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/P...ge=e&Mode=1

Edited October 27, 2007 by maldon_road

[Higgly]

So we can transact commerce on the basis of a number (and possibly a password) and yet we cannot vote except by showing our faces? Good grief.

Clearly we need better government.

[jdobbin]

Photo IDing is different from showing your face at the voting booth, and even if one were photo ID'd when picking up an absentee ballot there's no guarentee that the ballot is going to be filled out by the person ID'd; I imagine all they have to go on is the signature, so why isn't that good enough at the voting booths?

I can't think of anyone besides a Muslim wearing a veil who wouldn't be showing their face, so this must be aimed at Muslim women. I have to wonder why-- I wonder if it's been a problem.

You're right that it still leaves problems with mail in ballots. If you are outside of Canada such as during a tour of duty for the military or embassy officials and their families, you still mail in your vote. There is no way to prove that someone voting overseas is the person putting the X on the ballot.

Mail in ballots are permitted while living in Canada too. You simply request it and you can mail it in if that is what you wish. I wonder if they will end that and say it is mandatory in Canada to turn up at the polls and show your face.

I have never heard of this veil thing being an issue in Canada at any time over the last few years.

[jdobbin]

Why don't people do their own research? The legislation has either just been tabled or it's about to be, and the "Muslim community" is saying two things at once, as usual.

What two things are you talking about?

[maldon_road]

So we can transact commerce on the basis of a number (and possibly a password) and yet we cannot vote except by showing our faces? Good grief.

Clearly we need better government.

If you walk into a bank with a bag over your head would they serve you if you just handed them an ATM card and you asked for 500 bucks?

[jdobbin]

If you walk into a bank with a bag over your head would they serve you if you just handed them an ATM card and you asked for 500 bucks?

Why not? Do they need photo ID at the bank for your own account? You still have to type in your password.

[Guest American Woman]

If you walk into a bank with a bag over your head would they serve you if you just handed them an ATM card and you asked for 500 bucks?

Do they ask Muslims to remove their veils in order to draw money out of their account?

[Higgly]

Do they ask Muslims to remove their veils in order to draw money out of their account?

Anybody who has a valid account just slides their card into the slot and enters a password. It works like this at every banking machine in the country. The Maritimes. Quebec. Ontario. The Prairies. Lotusland....

Isn't that how it works for you?

[Guest American Woman]

Anybody who has a valid account just slides their card into the slot and enters a password. It works like this at every banking machine in the country. The Maritimes. Quebec. Ontario. The Prairies. Lotusland....

Isn't that how it works for you?

Nope. Because I don't use ATM's.

[Higgly]

Nope. Because I don't use ATM's.

Who the fuck cares. This is our vote, and you can do whatever the fuck you want in your own jurisdiction. Otherwise, piss off.

[Guest trex]

Its a non-issue for another reason- if the vast majority of people who vote are who they say they they are, voter "fraud" by a small number of persons has no effect on the outcomes. Only if large groups of people organized themselves to vote fraudulently would it make any difference.

But the fact remains that mail voting gets completely around the visual ID, so it will be interesting to see how they will deal with that. If they can't come up with something useful to cover that one, it will prove that it's just smoke and mirrors from the government.

[maldon_road]

Why not? Do they need photo ID at the bank for your own account? You still have to type in your password.

I'm not talking about an ATM machine. I'm talking about a bank branch. I would expect that someone walking into a bank branch with his head covered would generate a call to the police.

In Vancouver recently I went into a bank branch - my bank, BMO. Gave them my ATM card, then they asked for picture ID so they could compare the name on the card with the name and photo on my drivers licence with me. Hard to do that with a Loblaws bag on your head.

[ScottSA]

In Saudi Arabia they have fashion police who go around whipping women who aren't bagged. I suggest that here we ought to have fashion police with hemline torches...anyone with a bag on their bodies gets the torch treatment on the bottom of their hemlines. Might be a tad Pavlovian, but I bet we won't see many bagged women after one or two hem torchings...

[Guest trex]

In Saudi Arabia they have fashion police who go around whipping women who aren't bagged. I suggest that here we ought to have fashion police with hemline torches...anyone with a bag on their bodies gets the torch treatment on the bottom of their hemlines. Might be a tad Pavlovian, but I bet we won't see many bagged women after one or two hem torchings...

I see, so you advocate that we should behave like the extremists, who have no respect for other peoples individual choices.

[jdobbin]

I'm not talking about an ATM machine. I'm talking about a bank branch. I would expect that someone walking into a bank branch with his head covered would generate a call to the police.

In Vancouver recently I went into a bank branch - my bank, BMO. Gave them my ATM card, then they asked for picture ID so they could compare the name on the card with the name and photo on my drivers licence with me. Hard to do that with a Loblaws bag on your head.

And in Winnipeg, I've seen at BMO people with veils or with snow mask have no problem as long as they had their bank card and knew their password at the teller. I don't know that I have seen a bank policy of visual verification. Do you have a cite for the bank of Montreal for visual verification? I can't find one.

Edited October 27, 2007 by jdobbin

[Guest American Woman]

In Saudi Arabia they have fashion police who go around whipping women who aren't bagged. I suggest that here we ought to have fashion police with hemline torches...anyone with a bag on their bodies gets the torch treatment on the bottom of their hemlines. Might be a tad Pavlovian, but I bet we won't see many bagged women after one or two hem torchings...

I see, so you advocate that we should behave like the extremists, who have no respect for other peoples individual choices.

That was my reaction to ScottSA's post, too. And I also can't help but wonder why it would bother someone if a Muslim woman chooses to dress in a "bag."

[maldon_road]

And in Winnipeg, I've seen at BMO people with veils or with snow mask have no problem as long as they had their bank card and knew their password at the teller. I don't know that I have seen a bank policy of visual verification. Do you have a cite for the bank of Montreal for visual verification? I can't find one.

No. But it did not seem unreasonable. You go in with a bank card and purport to be George Stephen Harper Bush. Asking for a picture ID that tallies with YOU and has a name the same as the bank card seemed to be prudent when I asked to buy a sterling money order.

[capricorn]

Regarding banks, what I have observed during winter months is that customers wearing parkas and ski masks automatically remove the headgear and the ski mask upon entering. It's the normal thing to do. It can get pretty hot in there when you're lined up waiting your turn.

Now, if I see someone walk into the bank with a ski mask in July, well I try to make myself small, very, very, small. :lol:

[capricorn]

Since I'm in the kidding mood, how would a Muslim woman who habitually wears a burqa disguise herself for a Halloween party?

On the topic of the proposed legislation, yes I think Muslim women should show their face in order to vote. I think it reasonable that she show her face to a female voting attendant rather than a male if it is her preference. And that would take care of those clowns who wore disguises in the last Quebec by-elections and the Ontario elections. One guy actually wore a pumpkin over his head.

[maldon_road]

Regarding banks, what I have observed during winter months is that customers wearing parkas and ski masks automatically remove the headgear and the ski mask upon entering. It's the normal thing to do. It can get pretty hot in there when you're lined up waiting your turn.

Now, if I see someone walk into the bank with a ski mask in July, well I try to make myself small, very, very, small. :lol:

To get my library card renewed I need to produce picture ID. I sure don't object to doing it to get banking services. And I don't mind showing my mug to vote.

[Guest American Woman]

To get my library card renewed I need to produce picture ID. I sure don't object to doing it to get banking services. And I don't mind showing my mug to vote.

I've had to show my driver's license to withdraw money from my bank account too, but not for library cards or voting. But I'm wondering if Muslim women wearing a veil, if they don't drive or have a passport, would have a picture ID and/or if they are required to remove their veils when banking.

[capricorn]

Jean Charest will be introducing similar voter id legislation for Quebec. Given the current mood of Quebecers these days, I think they will welcome this move.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Canada/200...609285-sun.html

[maldon_road]

Jean Charest will be introducing similar voter id legislation for Quebec. Given the current mood of Quebecers these days, I think they will welcome this move.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/News/Canada/200...609285-sun.html

I think Quebec law already requires it. St Jean has been talking about amending the human rights act to give women "super-rights" where their rights would trump religious ones.