H3X0r

I like the part about how science dosn't try to prove anything, and how it is constantly under scrutiny. Good point, though not neccesarily true. It's true that throughout history science has made claims towards what the truth is, and then later it is found that the world actually is round, that germs and bacteria do egsist, that you can fly faster than sound, etc. You think we would have figured out by now that we should never make assumptions like that, but it continues. I just saw on a program the other day that traveling faster than the speed of light was impossible, that you couldn't do it. I also read about how somebody accelerated a particle of light really fast, and somehow proved that time paradox couldn't egsist (I don't remember the details, it was very confusing and way over my head.) Maybe I'm just being argumentive, but I have noticed alot of claims towards absolute truth in science.

Listen, about the thing about Vulcans. I'm really sorry man, I can't amswer all of your questions, they're almost socratic. I may have misunderstood your first post but I was under the impression that you asked everyone for some alternatives for a society to egsist without religion, but still persued morality and ethics in the same way thay we wish everyone did here, only defining them through rational and scientific thought. Was I right? That was how you said the hypothetical society functioned correct? I mentioned Gene Roddenbury's work simply because he had created a fictional species whose culture was based on those values. You wanted alternatives, so I just pointed out an interesting one that everyone can already recognize from pop culture, that's all. And I wasn't trying define rationality or get into a debate about whether or not the idea of the Vulcan mindset can egsactly fit your hypothetical society. I was just trying to point out an alternative, like you asked for at the start. I can't explain past that, I thought that was what you were looking for. I'm sorry if I was confusing but I'll try to be more specific in the future I guess. On atheism and non-believing! Clifford A. Beckover wrote in his book "The Egsistence of God and the Science of Omnisciene," that atheism was defined as a skeptic attitude toward the possible egsistence of God. An Atheist might tell you he dosn't believe in God because you can't prove he egsists. But by mirroring that same logic, by putting faith in the same school of skepticism but looking at it in a different way, one could say that as much as you can't prove that he's real you can't prove that he isn't real. Both points have no evidence, you can't support one side more than the other.

I apologize for the sarcasm. I thought it would prove my point on diversity of religions the world over, which was what I was suggesting you take a look at, and what would surprise you. Comparitive religion is enlightening. It's time for me to geek out. Does anyone like Star Trek? I like Star Trek. In science fiction, and in this case specifically Star Trek, you get to explore hypotheticals like this one all the time. The Vulcans(fictional) are a race that have found out a way to live in such a society where rational thought governs the actions of all individuals. To accomplish this they subdue emotion and trade it for logical thought. Through intensive meditation and extensive use of will power to help them along the path of logic they have constructed a culture wherein issues such as over-population simply do not arise. The problem with this is that with a constant rational mind set they never explore the irational, which has also proven usefuful in the past. If a problem arises they thing about solutions in a systematic way, starting with the most likely fix and working their way through every idea they have until their logical thought process runs out. Whereas a less rational person would think differently, perhaps work on a hunch, and also perhaps arising at a solution swiftly. It seems to me that for this hypothetical to be a success, for us to arrive at an alternative solution, we would have to kill the part of human intellect that helped us create religion. I'm not saying that atheists and all unbelievers have something missing from their brains(or perhaps something added), but if we wanted to make sure that this culture keeps away from religion all together, and it appears that religion has proven itself to be a natural extension of society, than it would seem something unatural would have to have occured. Just a thought. "If you aren't having fun with your religion than something is wrong." - some guys wife.

"Theytheytheytheytheytheytheytheythey" Dear Gods in the in the greenhouse! Listen to yourselves! Such a display of public ignorance! That must sound incredibly asshole of me, I know. I'm so sorry, but you have to step back and realise the words that you are typing. You are saying terrible things like "parents have to convince their children, because they would choose differently in adulthood"! After this you go on and on listing the mistakes of others without noticing the mistakes you make as you type those very words! My personal favorite: "Taking someone off of life support when they are suffering a violent and painful death is wrong even if they beg for it. Why? It is written in a book." Hmmmm, I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and say that you are reffering to the Holy Bible? Of course, what other book could there be? Tell me mister religious expert. What do you know of eastern religions? The Tao? Buddhism? Ancient samurai? Tantra? How about pre-christian european religions, like Druidism, or Shamanism? Have you read the Quran? How about the Kabbalah? I'm sorry, that't too hard. How about something way easier. Since you seem to be reffering to religions that are in your immediate vicinity in both time and space, tell me, what do you know about Native American rituals and beliefs? Little or nothing? You are basing your claims that religion is harmfull not on what religion has to offer, but on what you have seen so far! The truth of religion is not going to just present itself to you, that is not its nature. Here let me sum it up for you. You don't know alot, but you are very disenfranchised by religion. Who could blame you? Everything that you have been shown on television is dirt! But the only thing on television is soulless, comercialised garbage. Whether it be gatorade commercials or Bush pushing his puritist bull crap, it would seem that our societies take on religion is not one of the beauty and joy that CAN be found if you look. I suggest you look, I know you will be surprised. In reply to you Tawasakm I do not feel that religion is the only way to the path of happiness! Never will you hear me make such a claim! I was merely suggesting one of many alternatives to your question, not the only one. I picked that alternative because I feel strongly about it and try to live up to those ideals, so I know that path well. In fact, those who act within the "fear of God" as you put it are not acting ethicall, but totally outside the idea of ethics. How do you define good as a virtue, as Socrates once tried? That is a discussion for another day! But imagine society, ALL society the world over, had a massive philosophical epiphony and suddenly understood what "good" was. Your hypothetical would work then.

Looking for soemthing that's a better-then-band-aid solution? It occurs to me that to define religion as nothing more than a security blanket, as the answer to the questions of insecure peoples who are afraid and unsure about life and the unkown, is to shortcome it. Religion provides a multifaceted purpose. For that reason I think that to consider the abolishment of religion would be hasty, at best. In my "religion" I am encouraged to grow as an individual, to become stronger, smarter, and more powerful daily. I'm coaxed to read books, to speak with as many people of like and unlike minds as possible, to seek knowledge, to gain wisdom. Religion also guides me with a moral compass. I am to harm none, through action or inaction. At times this is difficult, really really hard. But because of dedication to something I can see and define through legend, myth, and tale I am set on a path to happiness. The "alternative" I'm suggesting to the religion we experience today is a religion we can experience tommorow. I'm not talking about changing the church you attend, but redifining the word, the idea, and your life.