Community Advocate

Can you say segregation?

Teachers only associate with other teachers? I've never heard that one before! I think teachers are in a good position (working in the system) to have a clear perspective from their own point of view. It's how we listen (or not) to them that makes the difference. I pooh-pooh the idea because it is not even close to realistic. It is different because it is public education. It is not the child's fault, nor the parent's fault if the school can not manage their resources with the students they have, it is the fault of the school system, budgets, and administrators. They have the same right to education that your children have. Farther down your list of concerns is children who have parents who aren't ufilling their own responsibilities? That statement smacks of judgement, and lacks empathy and understanding. Getting lawyers involved will not work. Talk to your Minister of Education and let that sector know of the shortfalls in supporting special needs in this province. Then, you'll be a part of the solution for the teachers, the special needs students, and the 'good' students who care about their education. The suggestion to sue parents of special needs kids for taking away from 'civilized' students shows you do not care. The civilized child is the primary interest and everything else is secondary? This speaks volumes about your paradigm. 11In one case at our elementary school, the poor little boy who fought back was told to do so by his school principal, who then expelled him for the action he took, as suggested. Twice victimized is very rare. Usually, one who is the target of bullying is victimized over and over again throughout their school years. My son had this experience as well. What did I do? I rallied other parents in our school district, had them fill in my survey, write victim impact statements, met for six weeks over my kitchen table with nine other parents, and we delegated to the school board. The result? An anti-harassment policy WRITTEN for students, (similar to those teachers have), a district wide mandatory education program for all administrators, teachers, and open to parents, and training sessions for school staff and administrators, along with a 'blue sheet' reporting system whereby all incidents must be recorded. I also fundraised to get anti-bullying groups into the elementary schools. My son learned by my role modelling that authority figures will protect him, and will ensure that he was heard. He also learned that parents can make a difference for all kids in the school, and that if we see something not working well, we can be a part of the problem by standing by and watching, or we can be a part of the solution by taking action. Had that parent had the means and support to address the issue with the school board, they may have been able to find a different solution. But they were right to move their child to another school if it was deemed he was not safe. Suing other parents for the behaviour problems their children display in the classroom is far from a solution IMO, and completely unachieveable. As most of us would. Perhaps you can share your idea of exactly what steps you would take if one of your children were involved? I'm quite curious.

That is your choice. You are fortunate to be able to make that choice for your children. Some parents do not have this choice, and are stuck in the public education system, which is exactly why it exists. Can you say mental illness? Bi Polar? Autistic? Fetal Alcohol Syndrome? (that's only a few) There are a whole host of mental illnesses and disorders that children are faced with today. Many of them are labelled 'brats' and are never properly diagnosed. Some of those end up incarcerated. Many more end up addicts. This is quite an ignorant statement. Name calling children is never acceptable, 'brat', 'loser' whatever your choice of negative words. Especially for those whom you do not know anything about. You call yourself a 'civilized person', yet you express yourself in this way? Children with learning disabilities, mental illnesses and disorders are in every school in every school district in every province. Another ignorant statement. They are only at school in session for less than five hours per day for starters, and count the number of teachers through the K-12 years, and you'll be hard pressed to charge them all with being brainwashing socialists!

Not in this lifetime on this earth. How do you think you could ever prove in a court of law that a child's behavior at school is the fault of a parent? If the problem child misbehaves, it is the teacher's responsibility to intervene and manage the classroom. This statement reminds me of a parent who said at one of our meetings that special needs and behaviour disordered kids should not be admitted to schools, they don't belong there. I suppose she thought it would be best to leave them uneducated, roaming the neighbourhoods breaking into houses to relieve their boredom or something. I don't know where people get these 'holier than thou' ideas about other people's children, but the judgements and ignorant statements are unacceptable. The only positive outcry would be about human rights, and the right to public education regardless of a child's challenges or disabilities. What a can o worms that would open! Actually, more power does nothing for the parent, if the student has behaviour problems for which the causes have been undiagnosed, or if the student has been diagnosed as special needs. Just some of my thoughts...

Those would be the students who have not yet been diagnosed. There is always a reason for behaviour issues. Once their diagnoses has been confirmed by the medical professionals, the school will then take some of those diagnoses and re-name them "behaviour disorders" for their own puroses. That is quite a generalization, Is it always the student's fault or the student that is lazy, or are there some lazy teachers as well? Are there any teachers not well educated in dealing with special needs in the classroom? Are there teachers who have more than their share of special needs students in a classroom? Are there any students in the classrooms who have not yet been, or may never be diagnosed? There are plenty. This most certainly can not be blamed on the lazy or uninterested student, and the teacher must take some accountability and responsibility for this scenario. Things are the way they are because we set them up this way. This is how the public education system is set up now, mostly due to losing students after multiple failures. This is called the 'dummy down' effect. It happens more in the states. Some people feel that special education students put on IEPs with accommodations and modifications do not belong in the public school system. Those folks may want to check into the number of IEPs in any particular school, and they would find there are high numbers. There is good reason for this. It is to help the individual child 'meet their own potential', as the square peg in the round hole, in great efforts to keep trying to squish them into the round holes. Short of going back to segregation, this will never end. I had one student at each end of the spectrum. One aced his way through public education with honours all the way. He was focussed and didn't let anything get in his way of success. The other didn't make it past 9th grade. There is such research, and once again, the success of split classes not only depends on the teacher's ability to manage the classroom, but the particular make-up of the students in the class. Usually, the benefit is for the students in the lower grade of the split, but there are some benefits for the older group as well. .You have a choice to go private sector, to homeschool, or to roll up your sleeves, and get involved through your PAC, DPAC, BCCPAC, and your local school board.

or make someone else that disgusting metaphor.

1. No problem with that, should be in effect for everyone, regardless of age, or driving experience. ZERO alcohol tolerance when driving for everyone. 2. No problem with that, should be in effect for everyone, regardless of age, or driving experience. FOLLOW the speed limits as posted, everyone. (as an option to 22-30 day syspension of license - a few weeks doing speedwatch in school zones. 3. Ridiculous, and another example of a few spoiling it for everyone. Correction though, no more than 1 passenger ADD: UNDER THE AGE OF 25.

Public education will never be able to meet the needs of all students. You would have to understand special education, and certain cerebral disabilities in order to understand the problems these special needs students present in a classroom, and how difficult it is for teachers to deal with them, without adequate support from a TA. EA, or classroom assistant. It is your provincial government minister of education you should be complaining to about this. Your disgust is misplaced. It should not be at the special needs kids. Your disgust should be aimed at the government that does not provide the required support to help these special needs students be successful in school. The square peg in the round hold syndrome still exists.

I for one am not anti-police. I am anti drinking and driving.

The public is not 'well served' by police who spend a few hours in the club after work and then drive home.

They are drinking and driving. The police in West Vancouver were reprimanded,and their 'club' closed down.

The success is in the statistics within the evaluation of the Alberta legislation of 2006. And, the success in a drug rehab, as I have recently learned, is NOT that the addict no longer needs professional help and support systems. They are necessary for some addicts to continue with in order to stay clean. The whole goal is to stay off the drugs, so whatever that takes for that individual is what is necessary. It's not about guaranteed income, it's about guaranteed support for the addict. Lucky them.

I'm so happy to hear this success story! It can be done if we just let it happen and provide the resources (such as no playpen and no meds!)

http://news.wired.com/dynamic/stories/O/OB...-02-05-02-58-08 Interesting concept. Do I have a civic duty to start eating cheesburgers and start smoking again? All I ever heard was the costs that these issues presented to society, never heard that they are actually saving us money!

GO OPRAH! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfzFmYoZajY

A few years back in our turmoil, a friend of mine said something I will never forget. She told me that if we lived on a farm, and ds was doing all this that you mention - he would be so much happier, and in effect, a different person. You've confirmed that for me. Can't go back now, but if I could, that's what I would do, I think.

The part in the quote boxes is you the part outside the quote boxes is me. I'll go back to colourize my text if it helps.

My reply:In our case, the diagnoses was ADHD, TS, and ODD, early signs of Conduct Disorder. Again, a wonderful kid, inventive, happy go lucky, personable, but very active and bored in school (plus seven years of being bullied). I now think all these diagnoses could come under one heading of 'anxiety disorder'. The kid was always so anxious about going to school, it almost destroyed him. Made it to grade 9 though, even though the school officials told us that we were rendering him "unteachable" because he was not medicated with ritalin, dexedrine, concerta, adderal..... quote from post in quote box my reply: I'm one of those. ADHD undiagnosed, selfdiagnosed. We are known as the 'movers and shakers' vs. followers. Public schools are not set up for these 'square pegs' that don't fit in the round holes. Fortunately, many are entrepreneurial spirits who do quite well in life, once they are relieved from the public school system Unfortunately, others will go down the self-medicaton route for anxiety, depression, inability to hold a meaningless job for income, etc. It's somewhat of a crap shoot, I think, as far as which way they go, but in my experience the more human resource support provided to them while young, the better they fare. Pharmaceuticals present a real problem for dual diagnoses. btw; clicking on minus quote does not remove the quote from reply box.

Thanks for that. I was wondering myself. I also wonder how the post by Oleg is at all related to this issue?/

But we can't do THAT! He has CRIMINAL'S RIGHTS!!!! HUMAN RIGHTS!!!!! VISITORS' RIGHTS!!!! IMMIGRANTS' RIGHTS!!!! and what about his "PRIVACY RIGHTS"!!!!! ????? I have trouble understanding how Canada can trump the laws of his own state by refusing to return him without guarantee of no death penalty.

Yes, it is about the health, safety and education of youth, as well as contractual obligations. It is not about CONTROL, but it is about responsibility, integrity, accountability.... I'm far from a 'control freak'. And teens are not dying from eating cheeseburgers. Cheeseburgers are legal. Drugs are illegal. Some kid being high is not a safety risk at all? Cheesburgers are just as concerning as crystal meth and crack cocaine? I think you'd have a rough time finding anyone toa gree with you there. Cheeseburgers are not my issue. Youth on dangerous drugs are my issue. The comparison is ridiculous. This isn't about using pot, this is about coming to school high, or with drugs in your posession as a youth. I'm always amazed at how you pull these statistics out of thin air. You do realize that 85% of statistics are made up? FINALLY for once, we agree! (in part , as I am not adovocating fascism nor a police state. People rarely take pharma mind-benders for fun, recreation, or to 'relax'. They are legal, they are prescribed by physicians, and the patient is monitored. Apples and oranges so to speak. Authority figures will have no control on their lives whatsoever, especially when they are adults. You can't seem to understand this is not about adult use of pot. For goodness sakes, please start another thread on that issue! This is about youth and dangerous drugs. What drug testing programs will do is promote the safety of all students holding them accountable to the law, and their agreements and contractual obligations. I have absolutely no doubt about that. Double crispy! Done.

Why do you find this odd? It's quite true, and most common. Hmmm, hadn't thought of it this way, as my thoughts are about health, safety and well-being. I can talk to you about this, because you are not stuck in the 'pot-people' paradigm, and you understand what kind of drugs are out there besides mj. I suppose your idea is a part of the purpose, but they don't bite with those teeth, they gently pick up by the scruff of the neck, and help them into a safe place. If a student agrees to come to school drug free, and breaks that agreement, then we're back to the discipline thing again, right? No spanking teens though, that isn't allowed! But school principals have autonomy much greater than most parents realize. He can search and seize easier than police can. I will tell you what will happen. I think I understand what you're saying. Blame others for our own situation, caused by our own choices. This is what will happen if half the job is done, not if the job is done well. Well, the fortunate part is that he is now clear-headed having gone through detox and rehab, he is away from those who influence him negatively, and he is in the care of professionals, support systems, and people who genuinely care about him and have the capacity to help him and support him towards a healthier lifestyle. These professionals, btw, are not nannies prescribing pharmeceuticals to replace the drugs. I think this is another paradigm that gets in your way of understanding this. But I understand how you're thinking there. I agree with you on all that. But I AM talking about children under 18. It's not often we find a 45 year old in schools with teens. The issue of drug testing in schools is about youth, and contractual obligations, and the health and safety of all students.

Now, you are understanding the problem more clearly. Okay, we could carry on this forty year long arguement about spanking, but spanking is punishemnt - not discipline. This is where thoughts differ. Punishment can get quite abusive, depending on how angry the parent is who is dishing it out. But discipline is meant to teach. I'll stop there. Well, if you think corporal punishment is necessary, you may not be using effective measures of discipline. But again, to each his own. That is a sad situation about the teens sneaking out, but it's always been that way, and probably always will. Putting the blame on the bleeding hearts does nothing towards a soloution though, it will take much more than blame, it would take a huge involvement on the part of the apathetic. That won't happen any time soon. Im not learning much from that statement, unless you care to expand alittle? But yes, I am learning a lot here, mostly about people. People are my passion. Eta: I now see you are referring to Dr. Greenthumb? i'll read your post again.....

Thank you both for your insights. I agree with all that myself.

I'm sorry, since I do not work in the schools I can not answer these questions accurately. You would have to find a school that does drug testing to find out accurate answers to those questions. They are good questions. Our schools do not do drug testing. The school I will refer to has mouth swab tests available if a student is suspected (pretty much known) to be stoned, so that they can prove the admin wrong and stay at school. The ones who are stoned usually just leave. They know the admin has noticed - they're not stupid, they're just impaired. If they are not high on drugs, they might choose the swab, the test is negative, and they go to class. You see, the rule is no drugs at school, and don't come to school stoned. So, the students are fully aware that they are not to come to school stoned,. and have agreed to this ahead of time. It may help you to know that this particular school is an 'alternate' school which is a place for students who have not been successful in their community school, and for some, it's a last ditch effort to get an education. The staff are specially trained to work with at-risk youth, and each youth is assigned a youth worker. There is an on-site addictions counsellor as well. The administrator has education up the wazoo, and is quite well trained in working with at-risk youth. to answer your questions anecdotally, from what I understand at one particular school, and from my experience in that school I would say the following: 1) I wouldn't personally be present. I am not a school employee. If the admin suspects a student to be high, (and yes, they can tell quite easily, they know the kids very well) he would talk to the student, and ask them if they're high on drugs. If the student says no, and the admin knows they are stoned, they will offer the swab for the student, telling them that they are free to proove the admin wrong by swabbing. If they swab, and it's positive, the student would leave, and come back when he's not high and ready to swab again for proof (if the admin still has doubt). They know they are not to come to school stoned, and they know that they will be called on it if they do. It's an agreement they've already made in order to attend. 2)No, the students are of legal age of consent (12), therefore parental approval is not necessary. The students in effect, give their consent when they suck on the swab. Parental consent is unnecessary. (aside, do you realize that you, as the parent and caregiver of your minor children can not obtain any legal or medical information about your own child, even while being held accountable to pay the costs of medical and legal services? The Federal Privacy Act section 8 (2).) (Oh, did you also know that your 12/13,14, 15, 16, 17 yr olds can consent to medical operations and treatments without your knowledge and consent as well?) 3) The school pays for the kits, provide them to the student, and the student tests himself. 4) Well, there's no going out nor coming back, the swab comes out and results are available in moments. Both the admin and the student see the results almost immediately. 5) No, as I said, the student is aware right away. (It rarely happens that a stoned student will suck the swab, they usually leave.) I'm not sure if parents would be notified if the kid tested positive, some of these kids live on their own, some live with foster parents, some live with guardians, it depends on the individual case. But in a case where parents are in close contact with the school, the parent would likely be notified that the kid is not at school today, and why they were sent away. But I do know this: A students' privacy on issues of disclosure with the school counsellor take precendence over the parents right to know. That is, if your child discloses a drug addiction and/or pregnancy and/or s.t.d. or even suicide to the school counsellor, the school counsellor will not talk to the parents without the student's consent. Confidentiality is assured for the student. 6) There is a school liaison officer available to all the schools. They are rarely called in for serious issues and events, so they would not be called in for one stoned student, never. If they were called, they wouldn't come out. They wouldn't be notified either. They are'nt the 'bad cops', they're the 'good cops', just there to be available to the kids, to talk to them, etc. Police aren't even notified of drug possession, unless it's a serious amount, which never happens, cuz the kids are not that stupid. Usually when they do bring 'it' to school, they hide it outside the building. So, from what I've seen, no the police are never notified. Administrators aren't that stupid either - In a regular school, it is more important to keep this information inside the school walls, so as the community doesn't see the school as having a drug problem, so student population stays high as does the per/pupil budget received. 7) None involved, no file transfers. 8) All kids are treated fairly. That does not mean they are treated the same, That means that they are treated according to their needs. Whatever their needs are, and whatever meets those needs for that student, that is how the student is treated. The educators are there to try to keep these kids in school so they get some level of high school education. Many have already quit, been suspended, or can not function in a normal school setting. Again, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability, from informaton I've obtained from the administrators, counsellors, and youth workers in the school/