Elder

I agree, that the whole movement is really just a way to exploit people and keep them in the dark ages. However, Craig, I'm having some trouble finding that book. Do you have another source where I could find information on the topic while I'm looking for it. I would love to comment on this, however, I'd like to know what I'm talking about too.

Amen Mr. Farrius. To believe in any Religion by it's very nature is to believe that there is a higher power capable of doing what we deem to be impossible. In my opinion, human beings are not the best judges of what is possible and impossible. At one point we said that it was impossible for man to fly. Of course there were still those who would try. Most of them were considered crazy. We now know better. Those early inventors and such weren't crazy, they were just a few steps on the way to where we are now, with the entire globe accessable by flight. Is it not possible that believers, who despite the evidence Christ, still believe he existed and is the source of all salvation, are just a step on the road to where God wants us to be? Is it possible that there are a thousand things about this that we don't know? You bet it is! Is it not possible that there is a being powerful enough to come here, perform miracles, bleed and die for all mankind to save them, and then rise up? Is it not possible that he, after starting one of the most powerful religious movements in the history of mankind, would wipe his tracks so that those who believed on him would have to prove their faith? Is it at all impossible that such a being, being massively more wise and intelligent than any human being could possibly fathom, would have a plan that we, being human, would not be able to understand? Is it not possible that the contradictions make perfect sense from his almighty point of view (which we cannot comprehend, and is infinitely better than our own?) Who is to say what is logical. Could not a being with such power derail that train with a bicycle? I find that far more probable than all of existence being an accident. Far more probable than the mass needed for the big bang to just spontaneously apear. Of course, I being human, would not know if that couldn't happen. Humans are not the best judges of what is possible or impossible, a contradiction or a not. Why is it that some people can't accept the idea that we as Humans don't know everything yet!

I agree with you that the U.N. is taking an extremely biased stand here. In all honesty I believe it to be a useless corrupt organization. However, before leaving it, let's look at what might happen. Leaving it would definitely cut it's power, and set us apart from the mistakes that it's making. However, it still would have some power, and if everyone with a conscience leaves it, it will only get worse. One can do far more to help fix an organization from the inside than the out. The real question is, is it at all possible to fix it?

Hugo is absolutely right. Abortion, whether it be right or wrong, is a side affect of the massively un-chaste atmosphere that society has been creating. Chastity is both moral and practical. If teenage pregnancy is cut, and more children are actually born inside families, Abortion itself will fall as well. Even if someone is "pro-choice," do they really want to abort if they can avoid the situation entirely. There is an easy way to do this. It's called abstinence. Teach teenagers to hold off on sex until they are ready and willing to be responsible and deal with the consequences thereof, until they are ready and willing to raise children.

Many people believe that homosexuality is wrong for religious reasons. Many people use religion as their basis for what's right and wrong. As I said before, it's a parent's responsibility to teach their child what they believe is right and wrong to the best of their ability.

Despite my lack of knowledge in Genetics, I hold my position. If Homosexuality is caused by a gene, is that any justification for it? A person can choose to overcome their genetics. You can choose to overcome habits and tendancies. Sometimes it's difficult, but that's where a test of character comes in. Whether Homosexuality is genetic or not does not affect the morality thereof.

Please see my posting under "Was Jesus a Fraud." It's not a matter of Proof. It's a matter of Faith. I would like to comment though, that your idea of a Christian Atheist, has some merit. I like how it puts Christ as an example. Many Christians see Christ only as their means to salvation, which I believe he is. I also believe that he is the ultimate example of how we should try to live, and that is a point that many Christians seem to overlook sometimes.

Derek, I admire your zeal, but Craig is not going to be convinced by the Bible, as he doesn't believe it to be what you call a credible source. Honestly, as I said before, in matters of Religion, it's not a question of proof. It's a question of faith. I do believe the Bible, I believe in Moses and Jacob, and above all, I believe in Christ. I don't believe this because of any of the evidence that I've seen. I don't believe it because of what I was taught. I don't believe in Christ simply because he is spoken of in the Bible, which I do regard as Scripture. I believe the Bible because it speaks of Christ. I seldom hear of a man convert to Christianity because of the overwhelming proof thereof. One has to find out for him or herself whether they believe it to be true. As for proof, I stick by my last post. The studies of Science and History are noble undertakings, whith great results. However, neither art is perfect. We still don't know everything about our past. We still have a lot of discoveries to make. Who's to say we won't find evidence later on, after we've proven our faith. Who's to say we will. Our view of History and Science is changing as we find out more and more. I do agree with Mr. Farrius, that before God, the wisdom of man is pretty much nothing. I personally believe he spends a great deal of time laughing at our attempts at wisdom. However, to each his own. We all decide what we choose to believe. Some go with the modern sciences of today, or the secular records of the past. Some rely on Scripture. Some rely on other things entirely. Each person has the right to choose what they believe, and what they base their belief on.

While I do agree that abortion is wrong, KrustyKidd brings up a valid point. Abortion is the product of a bigger problem. Abortion, actually, is the attempt to remove responsibility for ones actions. Freedom is one thing, but with freedom always comes responsibility. People have the freedom to choose their lifestyle yes. When they do so, they are bringing on consequences. I find abortion irresponsible, among other things. We have laws that enforce responsibility. Why should this be different.

Hugo, My apologies. I thought you were a Catholic. My point does still stand, that while Hugo may not be a Catholic, he still is trying to do something good, although it may not have the best results. In these arguements, both sides usually have good intentions, whether it be to fight what one sees as corruption, or to defend a faith from what one believes to be an un-just accusation. However, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Most of the time, these arguements do far more harm than help. As for your comment on us discussing history, not spirituality, I did not start this discussion to talk about history, I started this discussion to talk about hate between religions and what can be done about it.

My apologies for my statement on genetics. I'm really no expert in that field. My position on Homosexuality stands, but I will concede that when it comes to genetics, I don't have the knowledge to offer a valid opinion.

I repeat, when it comes to religion, you cannot change one's opinion with facts or arguments. Mr. Farrius sees what he believes to be corruption and speaks against it. However, his arguments will only enrage a Catholic who will only argue with him. Hugo hears an accusation against his church and stands to defend his faith. However, his statements will only enrage the protestant, who will then simply argue all the more against him. Each side is trying to do something good, whether it be to try to destroy corruption that he sees, or to defend the faith he believes in. However, both sides are merely angering the other. Each side has been ready to stop the bickering at various times, but then the other side was quick to step in and perpetuate the argument. Now I'm not going to argue for or against the Catholic Church, or for or against Protestantism. I have my own beliefs in this matter, but that's not what I want to discuss right now. I only wish both sides would be far more tolerant of the other.

Does it really matter if homosexuality is a gene? If it is, than it's not a helpful one, from a biological or religious standpoint. If it is a gene, it's a loosing adaptation that discourages reproduction. That is not helpful to the human race, to religion, to culture, or society. To say that it is a gene is not all that different from saying that Down Syndrome is a gene, which we know is. To say that it is a gene is basicly to say that homosexuals are the product of a genetic defect. Now, we do not persecute people who have down syndrome, but we still try to help them overcome their disabillities. Similarly, we shouldn't persecute homosexuals, but if this is a gene, we should try to help them overcome this defect and become contributing members to society, and that includes the contribution of having children (something that a gay couple can't do by being gay) and raising those children to be contributing members of society. If it isn't a gene, than it's a choice, which will be much easier to deal with. At any rate, homosexuality, gene or no, is not at all helpful, and while those who are homosexual should not be persecuted, they should be helped.

I am aware of the history of the Catholic Church. I know something of the history of Protestantism. I have read of both the bloody Catholic Inquisitions and the persecutions against Catholics in England and Ireland under the Puritan Regime of Oliver Cromwel, which the Anglican Church allowed to stay in place long after his reign ended (My history is a little sketchy. If anyone would like to correct me on these points, by all means.) These acts are both extreme examples of the fractures which I have spoken of. However, these days, we don't kill eachother, but we certainly are a far way from what Christ would have wanted. Religious history has always been of great interest to me. However, my friends trying to argue with me about religion has taught me something. When it comes to religion, you can not change someones opinion with arguments. You can not change it with facts. Any progress you do make will simply be blown away by the next person with a citation from a book or website, and I've seen a lot of those. You have to leave these things to both your conscience and the spirit. Arguing about it won't help with that, and never once has it changed my mind or the mind of anyone that I know of.

I'm very curious. Why is it that, while we as Christians are taught to judge not, to be loving and kind to all, there is so much emnity between some religious sects. Openly calling other Churches cults is not necessarily what I call Christian behaviour. Many churches full of God-fearing people who wish only to come closer to Christ are accused of not being Christians. I was once told by a virtuous, Southern Baptiste (please note, I am not speaking against the Baptiste Churches, for whom I have a great deal of respect as good Christians who try to come closer to God) girl who is my friend that she believed that I was not a Christian going to Hell because of my Faith (which teaches values like Faith, Hope and Charity, and that it is only through the atonement of Christ that one can be saved.) This friend is one of the best people I know, yet she said this. She and many of her friends would constantly slam my faith, Bible bashing me left and right, saying that I was no Christian. I wondered why. I learned that she was taught that my church was a cult, along with many things that are not true about my church. I learned that there was even a sunday-school class devoted to bashing my faith. I have met this sort of thing many times. Constant Bible Bashing, accusations, and people trying to tear down my faith because it was different. However, anyone who looks, will see thousands of different Christian Faiths, with various translations of the Bible, and interpretations of those translations. My friend and I never did settle our religious disagreement. It was sometimes a source of strife between us. She still is my friend, and I respect her for her morals. She is not perfect. No Christian is perfect. That's why we are Christians. If we were perfect, we wouldn't need Christ to suffer for our sins, as we wouldn't have any. We must become more understanding of the flaws in those around us. If you believe that a Faith is wrong or misguided, I have no problems with simple, quiet non-forceful proselyting of good doctrine, however, animosity and Hatred for another faith is not what Christ would have wanted. He never once bashed the Roman Polytheistic rule, or any other faith of the time. He preached his word and answered the questions of those who would have tried to stop him. He never called the Pharisees a cult. We will have our flaws, but must a hatred for other Christian sects be one of them?

I would seriously like to point out that in the matter of religion, God leaves much up to our own faith. It would be way too easy for us if we had tangible solid proof of his existence, on Earth or in Heaven. Mankind is way to dependant on it's own knowledge in these things. I've been shown evidence to scripture, but it's not why I am a Christian. The knowledge of the human race is very very flawed. The laws of science are constantly being rewritten as we find more and more. History is always written by those in power, by imperfect, flawed human benings, and we also have much to discover in the field of archeology. I do not think that we should give up on these practices, but neither should we base what we believe on it. I personally know that Jesus Christ is the true and living son of God, and by him are all that will follow him redeemed from both Death and Hell. As for how I know, that is my business. I get my information from the sources I believe in, you may get yours wherever you please. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve............................................ but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Why do we attach tax benefits and other such things to a marriage? Because the marriage is the beginning of a family, and it is not at all easy to support a family. Two people of the same gender usually aren't looking to start a family. The family is the basic unit of society. I call it God, but if you want to call it evolution or something else entirely that's your business, but men and women were created differently so that they could have children and raise them to be upstanding young men and women. There are things that a woman is necessary for in the raising of a child that a man can't accomplish on his own. There are things that a Man in necessary for in the raising of a child that the Woman is not ready to handle. Does that make either better than the other? Of course not. Both Genders are imperfect, and thus they rely on eachother to compliment eachother. That is what the family is about. Now obviosly there are circumstances where either the Father and the Mother are left alone with the children. I realize that it is possible for that parent to raise children on his or her own, but any child from a broken home, any single parent will tell you that such things are full of hardship. God (once again, if you want to call it nature, evolution, or anything else that's your business) meant for the family to involve a Mother and a Father and children. There is more to marriage than just being in love, than just having sex and getting tax write-offs. It's about taking someone who you love and care about, and loving, honoring, cherishing and protecting that person, in good times and bad, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health. It's a full time commitment. It's an agreement to support eachother, to have family together, and raise children together. A homosexual couple is not going to be able to do that the same way a Mother and Father will. It's about more than just being in love. Love is certainly an important factor, and you shouldn't marry without love, but you should also be able to have family together, to be able to work together towards common goals with your children.

Honestly, a parent, no matter what the circumstances, has a responsibillity to him or her self, to that child, and to God to do her best to teach a child what is right and wrong, what her values are. It's part of being a parent. It is one of the most important things that a parent can do. I don't see how a parent can stand by and let her child be taught something that he or she believes is wrong and just let it go. If the homosexual parent wants to teach the girl one thing, at least give the straight parent equal access.