[An intresting observation today]

I wonder if there is any sense or reason in arguing with the fanatics who defend the war foaming at their mouth.

When perls like "Saddam supported terrorists", "Iraqi people are free now", "Iraqi people live better now", "democracy reigns", "USA cares about human rights" start rolling in, you *KNOW* you're talking to an uneducated redneck at best, a fascist wannabe at worst.

Oh and to the original poster..nice touch mentioning that USA is building a hospital in Fallujah. You forgot to mention that they're RE-building a hospital they destroyed with air strikes before.

And the "they didn't even have hospitals before" was a nice touch. A city of 350k people without a hospital eh?

[British Navy Sailors]

AshNazg:

Most of your post concentrates on slagging the US military, and it's soldiers. and mentions little of those that truely controls that dept.

And you pat yourself on the back for leaving the US, leaving the problem behind, perhaps to come back when things change. when in reality your lack of action is no better than those soldiers who called them selfs free thinkers, Running is not the answer, many of americans have stayed and stood thier ground and have challanged americans direction. That does make you an armchair theorist.

Fair enough, the leaders are guilty - that much is obvious. The soldiers are guilty too for following illegal orders. You cant absolve them of all responsibility.

As to the fact that I fled the country..true, that was an act of cowardice when viewed under a certain angle. However, I despaired after seeing Bush reelected for the second term after wrecking our country so thoroughly in his first and lost all faith in our country or its people. I don't see any things changing just yet though.

For a real change we need to break away from this one party system and elect people who don't regurgitate the same agenda with a couple of cosmetic changes.

[British Navy Sailors]

My 21 year old brother is there right now. If he is killed by Iranian supplied goods, then yeah fuck them.

Perhaps your 21 year old brother should've thought twice before he signed away his life in exchange for the benefits that army provides.

Military is a dangerous place, people get hurt and killed there. I wonder if half the recruits that so eagerly hop into our army know what the hell they're doing. I also wonder if those recruits even for a second realize that an army isnt fun and games and people can lose their limbs and life there.

I guess some people who join the army start off in such bad economic conditions that joining the army is an only "sure way" to improve their station in life, which makes them little better than common mercenaries really. They're willing to kill other people for money and benefits for their own life.

I wonder if anyone is dumb enough to still believe that the army is fighting for the well-being of common American people and not for the benefit of a select elite few.

Either way, if you join an army voluntarily, follow illegal orders (you know, like the whole invasion of Iraq), kill innocent people as "collateral damage" because your own well-being concerns you more than the well-being of people on the other end of the rifle then you're no better than the fascist troops and deserve a fate no different from theirs.

Its kind of funny actually. I have had several friends in the Marines and they all swore that they're free-thinking men above everything else and that they would never execute an illegal order. Yet, funnily enough, when the war on Iraq was declared they shipped off without so much as a protest.

Yes, I know we treat ourselves as special and choose to follow the international laws and conventions only when we think they suit us, but thats what I hate about our country the most - this belief that we're somehow special and superior to others around us.

Anyways, I'm not an armchair theorist. I moved out of US and I haven't had a cause to regret it since. Eventually the leadership will change, and I might come back to friends and family who chose to stay behind, but I am afraid that at this pace there wont be much to come back to.

[Troop surge is working]

And the funny part is that with Saddam in power Iraq was a safer place for both Iraqis and USA.

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

You have a personal vendetta against religion and you can not justify it.

That the best you can do? Tsk

I followed your rant more than enough.

You say religion is like slavery and everybody is a slave if they have a job.

If thats how you choose to see it *shrug*

Although among the two of us I am not the one whose arguments are having problems with the logic.

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

I cannot help being surprised that we are being distracted from the main question whether we have the luxury to believe there is a creator of the universe …

Scientifically speaking, no-one yet has any strong point that this universe does not have a creator…

The opinions I have seen are:

1- Over millions of years, the un-living materials – no-one even told us from where they came – shaped themselves blindly into this unique universe. Furthermore, they created life on this earth.

2- Seeing living cells and organs in action, then they have their own logic and they created themselves, work by themselves. So why do we need a creator?

3- If everything needs a creator, so why we exclude God from that?

Apart from the third point, I am surprised we consider some un-living materials understand it all; away more that we do, and shaped this amazing universe and created us…

If any one told me that the most perfect and complicated computer or any high-tech tool was created blindly by some materials, I found it much to accept - although I will have to sacrifice my mind though – than saying I, or the intelligent people arguing me here were made by them…

Ask any scientist in any field about the perfect design and logic in this universe and he/she will tell you that ages and ages are needed just to give a general idea about what we know so far. They will tell you that the more they know the more they realize that there a lot more to learn. The scientist will tell - modestly - you they are LEARNING about the universe and LEARNING from the universe. Many many wonderful inventions came into existence by merely mimicking some creatures in this universe…

And guess what, I am being told this universe were created by itself blindly..try/error..!!! and they take the driver’s seat and advise people to talk “logically”

Now to the third point. Who created the creator Himself?

If we gave a mind to a car and ask it how it would picture its maker, it would tell you that he (more accurately – from its point of view - it) must have a motor, steering wheel, brakes, wheels….etc. Why? Because it compares the maker to itself which is wrong…

As I mentioned before, the creator is above time and place. He is not a being of anyway we could imagine. He is much greater than we might think. Concepts like life and death are created the same like universe when living being were created.

Existence is the rule not non-existence.

One more example to clarify

Our souls are from outside this created universe. Death does not apply to them. Death is just a separation between our bodies and our souls. Anyone can easily tell that. Anyone will feel time does not affect his soul. It is above time. A man or a women aged 10, 20, 50, 80 would feel no time passed and if the body helps, he/she will live forever …

I see what you're saying Adel.

However, isn't it much easier to imagine that on a billion different worlds, where atoms and molecules arrange themselves in various ways under the pressure of different forces, eventually, somewhere life will develop at random without interference of any higher deity.

Logically speaking it is impossible to prove that God does not exist, therefore the burden of proof lies on the believers to prove beyond doubt that God does exist.

What you have cited is merely evidence that we do not understand everything about the Universe. This does not mean that the missing part is God, this only means we're not yet omniscient. 2000 years ago people thought thunder was caused by God..we know better now, don't we? Same will happen when we crack other secrets of the world.

The perfect design and logic in this universe only seem perfect and logical because we're an innate part of the system, we developed within the system and we were optimized for the system by evolution. Naturally the system looks optimal to us. Our eyes see light because our Sun has a radiation peak in the visible wavelength. If our eyes only saw infrared and our Sun peaked in visible light, then our bodies would NOT be perfect for the system and then you'd have room to argue that maybe we were artificially designed by someone. Our planet has an oxygen atmosphere, and our lungs have evolved to breath oxygen so we could survive. This "perfect design" that you refer to is only logical and has nothing to do with Creator.

And of course our science imitates other creatures. Again, nature itself ensured that those creatures are optimized for their habitats and she spent 4 billion years so far evolving creatures to make sure that they're "up-to-date". Naturally we can borrow many principles from those creatures.

As far as aging and soul goes. Im not sure what you're talking about. When I age from 10 to 20 I surely feel more mature, more experienced, more jaded perhaps. Is that my soul or my body? I feel older and I ask myself many questions I didn't when I was 10. Is my soul not aging?

The existence of a soul itself is dubious at best. What is it tied to? Your head? Is it basically your mind? If so, indulge me with a little thought experiment.

If you were in a surgery room and a robot was operating on your brain, slicing little pieces of it at a time and reconstructing a perfect copy of that brain from other organic molecules, piece by piece, right next to your body, at what point would your perception shift from the old brain into the new? Or would you die?

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

I'm merely saying that

You have a personal vendetta against religion and you can not justify it.

That the best you can do? Tsk

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

Slavery is evil because it takes the brains and wills of many people and makes them subservient to one.

That makes sense.

The reason why I said slavery is a necessary evil is because from the standpoint of economics, someone HAS to clean the toilets.

That is not subservience. People can quit their jobs.

No they cannot. Not if they want to live an acceptable life anyway. Economic servitude is quite brutal.

Incidentally, it helps if people who work low end jobs are religious, they'd be more willing to endure suffering in this life so that they'd be rewarded in the afterlife.

Hence the "necessary evil" part.

Now you are suggesting that religion is necessary...??

I'm merely saying that religion is a necessary evil (hence the necessary part) that should be fought against and abolished as soon as it is possible to do so with little reprecussions for society.

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

What makes slavery or religion evil? Even though one is

No. That was not my question.

I asked: what makes slavery evil?

You equated religion to slavery and you said slavery was a necessary evil.

Slavery is evil because it takes the brains and wills of many people and makes them subservient to one. One who might not be smarter, brighter or even more mature than any of the subservient people.

It takes a number of human personalities (lets call them potential talents) out of circulation and from that standpoint people who are enslaved are forever lost to the society.

Religion enslaves peoples minds in the same manner. They refuse to see facts and follow logical reasoning and instead blindly cling onto the ephemeral. Those minds could be great minds, they could have great potential for unlocking the secrets of the universe but they do not, because they're dominated by the idea of God. Because of that loss of potential I pity them and I pity our society for allowing such mass "slavery" if you will to take place.

When I likened religion to slavery I said religion is a sort of slavery to imply that where slavery normally presumes physical possession, religion implies mental possession.

The reason why I said slavery is a necessary evil is because from the standpoint of economics, someone HAS to clean the toilets. Therefore we need people working for min wages and being economically bound to those positions. Incidentally, it helps if people who work low end jobs are religious, they'd be more willing to endure suffering in this life so that they'd be rewarded in the afterlife.

Hence the "necessary evil" part.

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

I'm not sure what this has to do with my message,

It has everything to do with your message because you equated religion with slavery.

but the answer to yours is that it depends on the definition of slavery. No, I don't consider it to be universally evil. Or rather, I consider it to be a necessary evil.

What makes it evil?

What makes slavery or religion evil? Even though one is reminiscent of the other, they're not necessarily equal.

Religion allows for easy and simple segregation of people into "friend/enemy" camp. It allows to demonize people by claiming they are inferior and sub-human (check the treatment of Native americans by Colonial powers for instance). It allows people to claim that they do work for the favor of the "Lord" and it allows them to commit unspeakable atrocities in his name without remorse or pity. It doesn't even register as a bad thing to do, since surely the Lord would reward any murders done in his name in the afterlife. (Check Inquisition, suicide bombers).

Basically it removes peoples capacity of independent and critical thinking and makes zealots out of them, brainwashing them into blind obedience to anyone who keeps their hand on the pulse of religion.

It also removes the burden of responsibility for your actions.

Zealotry + lack of responsibility make for a dangerous combination (check Nazi germany, who was guided by the same principle that underlies many religions, that of an inherent superiority of the "our" camp and inhumanity of the "their" camp).

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

Do you identify slavery as being universally evil?

I do.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my message, but the answer to yours is that it depends on the definition of slavery. No, I don't consider it to be universally evil. Or rather, I consider it to be a necessary evil.

It has existed since the dawn of time and it still exists now, on a variety of scales starting from personal slavery of low wage workers for corporate monsters and ending with economic enslavement of third world countries by developed nations.

Until we develop a way of having robots do all the dirty and hard work for us (and enslave robots) we will be reliant on human slave labor.

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

All I am saying here is from the holy book… not faking anything…

The holy book written by less than holy people. Had we lived by the holy book we would still treat women like they do in Afghanistan and keep slaves around.

The holy book was a guideline to live by 2000 years ago. We're beyond that now.

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

In fact, I would gladly welcome a regime that obliterates religion.

How should that be done?

Depends on what kind of person you are and the society you live in of course.

There are several options available to us.

The brutal, quick and highly ineffective in the long run one is to simply destroy or convert churches and other places of public worship into utilitarian buildings, sack the priests and convert them into someone else or exile them from the country if they refuse to take a more practical position. Forbid any religious holidays and revert back to holidays that celebrate natural events (Summer solstice, winter solstice, etc) or important scientific achievements. Slowly edge out religous worship from public view by destroying religious regalia (such as wooden crosses with Jesus image on them and so on). Then relegate the study of religion to history.

Forbid any sort of indictment into religion (baptism), abolish any religious taints in the marriage and other public ceremonies, impose a ban on people that stops them from openly practicing their religion anywhere outside of their house.

One other option would be to slowly edge religion out through media (which is kind of what is happening now). Continually bash it, denounce it, send a message across that people who are religious are mentally sick (after all religion is a sort of slavery!). Basically a massive PR campaign against it.

There are other options yet, one just needs to use ones imagination.

[Is it up to us to believe in God?]

Perpetual universe? Supreme being? Same difference.

So you're saying an inanimate object (which, essentially, is what the universe is), the "behaviour" of which is subject to various restrictions is the same as an animate, concious, sentient, omnipotent and omniscient entity that exists completely outside the bounds of what we know as reality? Look, if you were arguing that God is merely a human term to describe the mysteries of the universe and the infinite possibilities it contains (including the possibility of this universe being one among an infinite number)-IOW, shorthand for "all the shit we can't really fathom with our puny minds"- fine. But that's not what most people, including the O.P, are talking about.

Given our limited knowledge of the way human mind works and our almost complete absense of knowledge regarding what exactly makes something sentient or concious, we cannot really make claims about universe as a whole of being inanimate.

(sci-fi mode on) Sure it looks like its just a soup of radiation, but who knows, perhaps the universe as a whole is sentient and galaxies are its neurons. This then would be God. I mean, is it really far fetched to assume that our understanding of the world around us is so limited that we simply cannot concieve of a greater intelligence than us, elsewhere in the universe? (sci-fi mode off).

The best analogy i've heard so far is the one that likens humans to the fish living at the ocean bottom. To this fish, nothing but water exists and it cannot concieve of anything beyond the ocean. A term such as "outside of the water" would have no meaning to it, since water is its world. Same deal for us humans, we cannot concieve (yet) of anything outside of our limited world.

I myself believe that there exist intelligences greater than ours in the universe, but they are probably not aware of us and if they are, they certainly don't care that much (or maybe have a purely scientific interest in our development). The notion of God as religion sees it (an object of worship) and the notion of afterlife is utterly foreign to me. I see it as tool of societal control, nothing else. It is much easier to keep peons in check if you feed them with tales of heavenly riches that await them.

In fact, I would gladly welcome a regime that obliterates religion. Such a regime might at long last ensure a world that is relatively peaceful. (Example: USSR was a very diverse country back in the day, with muslims, christians, buddhists and other religious groups working peacefully side by side. There was very little racial / religious segregation and hatred because USSR as a government abolished religion and promoted science and communist ideals. Now with the conversion to capitalism, Russia is experiencing a lot of religious and racial tension).

[Putin blasts U.S.]

Cleaning up others people's messes.... Is there truly anything more American than that?

Don't you mean cleaning up your own mess?

Lets just name a couple of the screwups by the esteemed states in recent history.

1. Financing of AQ, Bin Laden and Taliban precursors in Afghanistan circa 1980ies by US. Feeding the same enemy that would later turn on its master. All for what? To screw over the Soviet Union? Why so surprised that Russia is helping Iran against US now?

2. Tacitly approving and supporting the wars by Saddam Hussein against his neighbours. Mind you he was later condemned for those wars, even though he engaged in them with the full knowledge and approval of his american masters. By the way, good job lopping off Saddams head. Would've looked better if he was actually convicted of his crimes by a proper court before he died, instead of pathetic puppet court.

Oh wait, if Saddam was given a chance to defend himself properly, he'd walk free and some unfortunate US decisions would be exposed. Kind of the same thing as would've happened in Milosevic trial had he not died of a "heart attack".

As far as Putin and democracy goes...I don't live in Russia, so I certainly cannot vouch for how free or unbiased their press is. I do however watch Fox news, CNN and so on quite frequently. I haven't seen worse journalism ever. Talk about unbiased press, lol. Mass media in the states has reached levels of brainwashing that NK can only dream of.

Secret police? Making people disappear? Journalist murders? House explosions? Watch more Fox please.

There is no evidence that links Putin to any journalist murders, so trying to blame him of it smacks of prejudice. Might as well claim Bush orchestrated 9/11 himself. And contrary to the popular (all too often ignorant) opinion, Litvinenko case *still* has no conclusive ties to Kremlin.

If you're not completely zombified yet, take a look around your own country, or maybe even Europe. France for example passed laws that allow them to fine and jail people for passive soliciting (ie. if you look like a prostitute, you may be charged, even if you didnt actually do anything). Or yeah, that new law that forbids ANYONE who is not a professional journalist from filming violence on the streets (police action included).

Shall I even bring up legalization of torture in US, confessions elicited at gunpoint (see the most recent one with that arab from g.bay), wiretapping abuse by Homeland security and a tendency of CIA to nab ANYONE and hold them in detention as long as they want without trial or access to advocates?

Damn. And i thought China was a police state.

For your information, from 1990 and up Russia was in a state of complete anarchy. Now that is REAL FREEDOM. Kind of freedom that even democracy cannot provide. Now they're of course fixing things up a little. Did you know by the way that Russia has a multiparty system, as opposed to two party system of USA? Thats closer to what a real democracy is supposed to be.

Democracy? US doesnt know what a democracy is. Never did. Free country? As if.

Yes, the living conditions are better than elsewhere for now, but that is only the momentum at this point. In a few years the system will disintegrate and the power will completely and irrevocably (for the near future) shift to the BRIC or BIC (Brazil Russia India China or Brazil India China)

Mind you, I live in US and I intend to stay here for as long as it needs to get what I want out of this country. I hold no loyalty to it or to any other country for that matter. I think constant warfare and strife is good, so I don't blame USA for what it is doing to ensure its supremacy over everyone else. Eventually all empires fall though and we right now are witnessing the fall of West (USA, Europe, Canada and so on). Socialism does not work and this will further prove it. I have no hate or dislike towards any country really, I just hate seeing people spewing nonsense about how free USA is, when its anything but.

Night everyone