Adel

Kind of like religion, a whole lot out of nothing. People can believe in a higher god, that is their perogative , and frankly none of my business. I may have insulted people with my "whole lot of nothing " comment, and thats wrong. But to try and convince me to believe, in the face of my strong observation , is a pain in my arse, like the idiots who come to my door on the weekend. When I answer and say what religious doctrine are you repping, or what church, they obfuscate . Shutting the door works tho. But to each their own. I cannot balm you that many of people trying to explain their beliefs are bad examples or bad representatives. But at least I understand their good intentions… and I appreciate their efforts…. When I said the creator created the universe from nothing I did not mean at all He was playing. The universe is a very very serious matter. I just wanted to say the creator did not need any materials of previous examples to use… The creator said in one of his wholly books “I was not playing when I created heavens and earth. I created them on purpose…”

Why not? So everything heeds to come from something except the creator? That's junk. Why not just say the universe has always existed and cut out the middle man? No. There's naturalistic explanations for all of the phenomenons you describe. In the case of the fetus, we know how cells combine and mulitply. There's a process there, it's not happening "by itself". Cars, building etc. come from raw materials. But God apparently doesn't need raw materials. He just makes stuff out of nothing. So your analogies are weak. Thanks for you reply.. Again you are talking about HOW these things happen. This is the way – among endless other possible ways- the creator chose to create living beings. He did not need at all to use means of any specific ways to do that. He just chose this way, which is miraculous to us – to do it. He did not need any means to create the universe from nothing. He did not need a father to create Jesus. He did not need means to turn Moses’ stick into a living snake….. If you think cells know what they doing by themselves, you went so far using your ‘logic’… I completely agree that the creator does not need raw materials to create anything (He created even the row material though…) He just makes stuff out of nothing. That is true and that is exactly what I am trying to explain… But if you expect the creator would do the ‘direct creation’ every time he wanted to create everything, then this is something else and He did not chose that, although He is completely capable of. Ho chose to make things as clear to our minds as possible. I am sure you want to see you kid being help in your wife’s womb and then you see it grow in front of you instead of suddenly you found something from nothing called your kid….

What evidence do you have that God/the Creator ever sent a messenger?I'm not disputing your claim that God must exist. That's your belief. I am questioning how you know that God is mixed up in the affairs of men. Specifically, I am questioning how a person can make the claim to be God's messenger. What stops a charlatan from making the same claim? That is a very valid question... Anyone could come up and pretended he was a prophet... and actually this happened.... Through history, these are the characteristics of true prophets : 1- They were the best people in terms of mental, logical, moral aspects. Proof: Even their enemies could not truly deny that. 2- They were not looking for money or authorities. Proof: They were offered all this from the people who did not believe them just to stop conveying their messages. They offered many prophets to share authority but all of them refused that. 3- All of prophets conveyed the same message. All prophet said “You have one God. Your God is the creator of the whole universe. He created you and created everything. He is telling you to worship him not anything or anybody else. All people are the same, rich or poor, white or black or red, men or women, rulers or subjects, all the same ” 4- They have never said anything that did not make sense. Even when they were talking about scientific facts like universe creation, heavens and earth, or future which was completely unknown to people at that time… One example : one prophet conveyed a verse, more than a thousand years ago, saying “Do not the unbelievers know that heavens and earth were one piece and then we separated them”. Another verse - the creator says- “I created heaven with great might and I am going to expand it”. So who told that prophet long long time ago, when all people knew almost nothing about what we know now that the universe is expanding? …. 5- For people who did not believe using their minds, and for people who were suspicious, all prophets were sent with miracles. 6- Proof: Abraham was inside the fire and the creator order fire to stop acting as being fire and he did not feel it. (For those “logical” people who like to use their mind, it is a good time here to tell them that all the behaviors of everything are not the only possible behaviors. Behavior of everything is the behavior that the creator chose. Otherwise logically, we could have three or four eyes…water could hurt, fire could be cold, earth could be flat, we did not need air to live….etc.) Here we can take another verse from a whole book. The creator said “Mankind, if I took light out of you, who would bring it back to you? Or if I took the ability of seeing from you who would give it back to you? If I took the ability of hearing from you who would give it back to you?”). This makes sense. He is the one he gave them to us and he could take them back if he wants or if we did not appreciate. And to make us think about that, we can find people not being able to see and nothing wrong with their eyes, some people cannot have kinds although nothing wrong with both the husband and the wife… We can mention other prophets’ miracles but that would be a lot… 7- They lived and died an example of their messages. They never said something and did the opposite. They made it clear, their rewards are in the heavens after life. They did not want or expected – actual the rejected – all kind of life enjoyment (money, women, authority, clothes, houses….etc)

People who say there is a God only have to answer a single question: if everything needs a creator, who created God? I cannot consider this as any answer to any question I asked.... Your question is not a valid one when it comes to The Creator... If a god was created then he is not a god.... Being creatures, we tend to compare everything to us... that holds true for everything except for the creator.. Existence is the base not non-existence.. because nothing comes from nothing... this is something clear and many philosophers stated that... Because we were created and we - as the whole universe - have a beginning, we think this is the base and it must apply to even the creator ... The confusing point for people denying the creator is when they do not see the creator HIMSELF do his actions in front of their eyes.. they just think things just happen - seemingly - by themselves.... So when people see - for example - a fetus is being formed inside a womb, they say 'Oh, that is normal. nobody forms that fetus..we don't see anyone is doing that..' That does not sound logical to me… So they want the unlimited creator - who is above time and space - to appear and physically does it in front of them to know that that fetus was not being created by itself... In previous times… the creator send his messengers with those kind of miracles for people who did not want to think...but wanted to see something physical to happen in front of their eyes… even some people asked their prophet to show them the creator… Rational people do not need physical miracles to think and realize that not seeing the cars, houses, planes, trains, computers….etc being made does not mean no-one made them…. Rational people do not need physical miracles to realize drones don’t fly be themselves…etc..

Well I am thankful you are happy with my reply. Except those that believe perhaps? I have. Their is no god, buddha, mohhamed, santa or the easter bunny. Ahh the old "we know you think and it was gods design that gave you that tool" crap. I should have explained....Jimmy Swaggert, Ted Haggerty, Jim and pancake makeup lady whatshername, Billy Graham, Pat Buchanan, Ernest Angely....those are "profits" So God put the amoeba like cell on earth and said...grow into a fish, crawl on land, make like a monkey and voila..MAN in my image. How about I take some of bluebloods canola, and wait for a couple of million years and it will magically be turned into a Buick, albeit a real fancy one.The people will worship me? The fools if they do. How about the explanation that lightening caused the right conditions to perpetuate life on earth? Oh right, god made lightning too. I dont know, go ask the same question in the rain forest circa 1950 when white men and airplanes were seen for the first time.....I kind of think they didnt slap their foreheads and say " there really is a god !!!! " Thats true , but no one can see the same and say there is proof of god. Again I cannot hide my appreciation and admiration of your reply... You admitted that there is wisdom behind everything in this universe. Well, that is good... Could you explain to me who put that wisdom? Scientists will tell you about the miraculous logic behind everything - I repeat EVERYTHING - and you are telling me that it happened by chance. That is really braveness to say that. And still you call this LOGIC.... So the blind cells in my body know everything. They know what is good and what bad. My lungs know - guess what - the components of air and they select - by chance - what is good and get rid of what is bad?? I can give you endless number of examples that I am sure you have NO answers to them except the ready answer: no God.... That is why I said earlier that people who deny God have to answer endless number of questions and convince us that THE IS NO CREATOR. People who admit there must be a creator - whoever - who created this very perfect universe are closer to logic than others.. Look at your food. Who created it? Who made it perfect to our bodies? Who created seeds, rain, and soil to give you food? You just take this for granted, don't you? People take for granted everything. Well of somebody gives you a hundred dollars, I am sure you would not take that for granted. But you take millions of millions of things around you for granted....

No I dont., I face no questions what so ever. But of course you think so. While you do have a point , it is not the one your think you are making. If one "beleives" he does not think....but if one doesnt then he "has to " think. Wow that is messed up. Ahh...more religious claptrap. Yes, totally impossible that men who would be lining their pockets would lie to the public.I think the word should be changed to "profits" as that is what most seem to want. Tell ya what, you get out and think instead of being fed pablum by some crockery wannabe deity and I will think about it. But just to let you know, Darwin figured it out. You are typing with what used to be fins Take your own advice. I am happy with your reply... But maybe I will have to put some light on what I mean by "Believing"... Fact is not afraid of any research... Use your mind. That is perfect. That is the idea behind your having a mind... Fool or ill-minded are not required to think or believe... You cannot believe without thinking and start from denying everything...think..doubt..argure..compare...and then believe is the final result... For those people who think the don't "believe"... they are wrong unfortunately.. because they DO believe but in something else...in money..in women..in power...but they do not believe in the one who created all that... For saying profits or their followers were looking for profits..nothing could be far from truth.. read the history and you will see all prophets were denied, tortured, sometimes killed, lived and died poor and were not interested at all in life enjoyment... As for Darwin or any other "theories", he just explains - even if it was fact not just arguable theory - how living beings were created not WHY or WHO... Give you an example..imagine a man who never saw a car before... once he saw it for the first time he was afraid and thought it was a ghost. After many years of studying, he recognized or discovered HOW it works and HOW it was designed. Now, does that mean NO-ONE designed and made that car? The good results from recent science and its discoveries is that it explains HOW everything works and was designed but not WHY and WHO created them... No one can deny the wisdom behind every thing in this world, from the atom to the whole universe...

But then... So is believing in God optional or isn't it? Believing in God is not optional at all, although forcing people to believe is not acceptable either... As long as people are alive, they have the absolute right to believe or not... But the fact that God exists is there.... It as we say to a student the exam date is coming and it is completely up to you from now until then to believe that and study hard or not... The law is there, but it is up to you to obey or not (Not obeying will have consequences though...) The difference here is that God made it clear that those consequences for obeying or not, believing or not, are not in this life... but in other life when the course of out life is over... So by saying it is not optional, it has nothing to do with forcing people to believe, but it has to do with the fact God exists regardless and depending on your free choice you are determining your distend

I'm not sure which is worse - the silly logic or the presumption that you alone know God's mind. I did not put the way you did... People who deny God's existence face endless number of questions they HAVE TO answer not those who believe in God... People did not invent faith. This is something they are born with. Deep inside every person, he/she feels it and from our experience you would never feel you need or want something it does not exist... Furthermore, thousands of prophets all over history delivered the same message. It is completely impossible all of those very good men were liars given that they had never met each other... Just get out of habit for a while and ask yourself who gave you this mind and and the fingers you are using to reply to this post... Please think...

It is very astonishing that some very rational people out there are still thinking believing in God is optional... Let us assume a scenario and think about it for a while... This very accurate universe has a creator who created it on purpose and takes care of it all the time... He chose to make his actions very simple so that his creatures - who would be created later - can understand them. He did not have to create in any specific way because - as a mighty creator - he could have said: be and it would have been.... As a creator, place and time do not apply to him. Those terms just describe things applied to creatures. He is above time. A day, 6 days, and 100 millions years all the same of course... He chose to create the universe in some way - big bang for example or any other way - and this universe - once created - introduced the concepts of place a time among others... He created the universe to last for a specific period of time. He is the only one who knows the end. He chose some part of the universe - we called it Earth -... He created all kind of creatures in different ways and with different needs. He created the most necessary needs - air and water for example - and makes them for free. No one can prevent others from having them as that would be life-threatening. He put all will-be-needed things - thorough the whole journey - in that planet. He put them in many forms that - in time - would be discovered. Generations after generations would live unaware of many things simply because they would not be needed.... He created the Man who is the purpose of this entire creation. Man - who is almost nothing compared to other parts in the universe in terms of size - would have something different. This thing would be the mind. Man will be the only creature that can be aware of himself and the universe... He would have a complete choice to do whatever he wants - withing the rules of universe- and would be able to realize that he himself and everything else could not have been created from nothing.... But just realizing that there must be a creator does not tell a lot about that creator... what HE wants mankind to do would be unknown.... Through thousands of years God would choose some specific persons - very good samples - and would reveal the truth to them and ask them to convey the message to their people. Just conveying the message and it is up people - as long as they are alive - to believe or not. But sooner or later, they would finish their period of living on this earth and would be asked how they dealt with his messengers and what they did with his instructions... Over time, thousands of prophets and messengers came with the same massage: You have a God. Your were not created by nothing. You would be left for nothing..... So whether people do believe that or not, the fact remains that this is the biggest matter in life.... People get so involved and overwhelmed by life details and do not see the whole picture... What do you think?...