theloniusfleabag

Dear rightturnonred, If the costs begin to outweigh the benefits, is it 'not well' spent? I ask this because America worships money. If money becomes sacrificed instead of lives, is it anti-american?I agree that the 'alerts' are a good thing. I also do not see it as 'fear-mongering'. The only risk they run is 'crying wolf'. Shaky as US intel is, it could save lives. Unless they pull a 'Churchill' and not forewarn the polulace in order to derive other benefits (as Winston Churchill did with Coventry in WWII, choosing not to evacuate the city in order to keep secret the fact that Enigma had been broken). The biggest problem facing the US regarding terrorism is individuality. Communities and friends used to watch each other's backs. The US dogma, perpetuated by the media, is "Everyman for Himself". It is the American way nowadays. Shared responsibility is fast becoming lost as individual 'rights' and ergo freedom from responsibility take the lead. Lol. Perhaps you meant to say "decades of Economic Imperialism" rather than complacency. Or perhaps you meant complacency on behalf of the conquerors, not being severe enough with the methods of subjugation.

Dear Morgan, Source: BBC Online Dec 16/03. There are many others.The fact that these crimes were in the past, does it mean that they should be forgiven as easily as the duplicity and abbeting by the US? The statute of limitations is seven years in most countries. Internationally, there isn't one. How can Saddam be criticized for actions '10-20 years ago' and the US be forgiven as the same time frame is regarded for them 'way back when'?

Dear KK, The US gov't has no such moral compunction. When Satan took Jesus atop the mountain, he said "Worship me and all you see will be yours". "Get behind me, Satan" was Jesus' reply. The US would have said "Gimme gimme gimme". While all of your quotes are (or were) true and noble, most of the authors must be rolling in their graves. I say America USED to stand for those things. It was ONCE noble and just. The problem is that justice, equality, and freedom for all have been FORGOTTEN for the sake of the bottom line, which is money, or Mammon deified. PS. thank you for the seasonal wishes, I extend the same hopes to you. Steve

Dear logical1, The issues of 'war crimes' dates back to WWII, and the dubious Nuremburg Trials. While many questioned the legality of such a trial, people also felt that the Nazi (and Japanese) aggressors should not go unpunished. There was a sense amongst many that it was 'victor's justice' and had no formal legal basis. The same applies here. International Law does not really exist, nor human rights either, for countries that refuse a 'common international law'. Saddam was employed by the US for a time, to keep Iran and the Kurds in check. Because of this, he is basically hooped either way. He would be tried for 'treason to Islam' if the facts come out that he was a flunky of the US. If he denies this, he will be accused of supressing the Kurds and killing Iranians en masse of his own accord. What shall he be tried for? Using mustard gas, both against the Kurds and against Iran. (in my opinion). But by whom? that is the crux of the matter. It should be at The Hague. Victor's justice and revenge from political enemies have no place in the world.

Dear KK, The UN is pretty much powerless to enforce rulings. I left the end of your quote open because the world would be a different(and better) place if the UN did have the power to act as the World Police. Well said. Perhaps one day an impartial Police shall rule. The USA will never be 'impartial', though. Not as long as their god is Mammon.

Dear Debo, That was a little joke, perhaps too deep for those of shallow mind. Of course no one person, or even nation can have 'the whole picture'. It is important to look at more than just one picture before acting, though, lest one become exactly like the Islamic fundamentalists we oppose. "If zealotry be your motivation, let not ignorance be your guide". Me.

Dear Mr. Read, This may come off sounding a trifle cynical, but... "Get a paved highway!" Problems with Shari'a law? Pave a road! Infidel Infestation? A paved highway can cure that! Democratic reforms backed up? You say that the vast majority want Islamic rule? Get 'em a new highway! Fearful of problems with an oil pipeline? Build a highway alongside! Yessir, with a new highway, insurgents become instantly marginalized! The populace can ride those oxen and camels right up to the polling station! Rumsfeld by a landslide! I am only joking here.( Debo)

Dear Debo, All of my posts thus far have been actually left, but also correct. I must disagree.As Mr. Hardner implied, the more complete the picture, the better the understanding. One must NOT 'develop' a view from but one picture. There are two cameras to consider. There is you and also 'the one who is not you'.

Dear KK, It is the method, not the math that defines.As to the wanton actions of a democratically elected leader, one must take care to keep oneself in office. You can't just 'go and nuke Canada', you have to manufacture consent first.

Dear Mr. Read, Israel is deeply divided over the actions of Mr. Sharon. As usual, to some he looks like an appeaser and a coward for 'pulling back to the fence' and to others he is going too far. A letter from a crack IDF unit states that they now refuse to serve in the 'occupied territories', as it is immoral. Others are worried that the Likud shall fall, because "their Title and Deed are the Bible" to Judea, Samaria and Gaza. While Israel had several very clear opportunities to eliminate Arafat, they chose not to do so. I expect that they would not have received 10 billion in US loans if they did not have a face for their enemy. Many within the Knesset see Sharon as a modern day Chamberlain, yet they sit there and negotiate with each other over what coalition will run their gov't. Israel needs new leadership pronto.

Dear KK, That would be a tremendous, wonderful thing that may help change the entire world for the better. That is not the dogma of the US, however. The US wishes to create more wealth and power for the US only, and (to quote Metallica) "nothing else matters".

Dear Lost in Manitoba, Well said. Dear KK, On the contrary, the US has used some of these methods in Central America. They trained people on torture methods such as blowtorches to the feet (a favorite of 'Papa Doc' Duvalier, Brutal Dictator and US flunky) etc. The raping of relatives was used as a ruse only, dating back to WII. The 'victim' of interrogation was placed in a room where he was led to believe that his spouse was being raped and tortured in the next room, and only by 'confessing' could he end HER torture. Only the Brits in WWII did not resort to torture. Actually, some 10-20 million perished in concentration camps or from slave labour. Hitler killed more Russian POWs and so-called 'degenerate Slavs' than Jews. China lost some 20 million civilians in WWII alone.Mao killed many more millions bot deliberately and through ignorance. Yet his regime and policies are 'most favoured' as a trading partner for the US. Slave labour is an excellent source of profit. Actually, Bush is a chip off the ol' block. Desire: world domination. Method: Use righteousness as a facade for control through military might.

Dear all, Does the end justify the means? That seems to be the crux of this thread, and the majority seem to say yes. I would then submit that the use of torture as a means puts one in a class with Stalin and Hitler. Only the end is desired to be different. But it cannot. What some here seem to be saying, is that the methods of 'Nazi Germany' were acceptable, just as long as America applies them, for American ends, and not Germans for Aryan ends. Torture and eradicate your enemies. The only problem, then, is keeping a close check on who defines 'enemy'. That is what Big Brother is for.

Dear Derek, While this may be factually true, it is also self-destructive. Human rights laws also slow down the progress of the US. Minimum wage laws, safety standards, and unions also slow down the US. ( I'll go on record as saying unions are a bad thing).

Dear Elder, I echo your sentiment that the UN needs an overhaul immediately. The world and it's nations need a 'world police force' that all nations are accountable to. However, if it is one existing nation, impartiality and fairness of justice will never be attained. If the UN, as it is, is tainted to the point if 'beyond salvage' then a new entity must take it's place. I do not believe that the 'spirit' of the UN is wrong, but rather it's capabilities are lacking. How can that 'world police force' wield the neccesary power' to do the job and still remain impartial?

Dear righturnonred, Gee whiz, what was I thinking. I forgot that politicians renounce all their friends and cronies once elected to office, and become 'paragons of virtue'. Just as the Bush Family has denounced all ties to OIL. Did you forget the shooting in a refugee camp by the IDF of a UN worker? Did you also forget that the IDF denied ambulance access to the shooting victims (of the UN)? If you are ignorant of these facts, I shall not press for an apology. It is painful for me that I have not seen a 'good guy' for a long time. Most of them don't go into politics.

Dear rightturnonred, Halliburton, Dick Cheney's outfit, is earmarked to receive 7 billion of that. The UN has been incapable of halting dictatorships that the US supports or has supported? Not surprising, since the US uses the most vetoes in the UN. What of the 'defenseless UN workers killed by Israel in 'Palestine'?. I suspect I shall be called an anti-semite for that one, but so be it. Besides, Semites include Arabs and Jews, so I should be equally called anti-Arab.

Dear KK, Not actually 'insurgent' but 'Anti-US insurgent groups'. Even so, the US will still support 'anti US insurgent groups' (such as Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Osama) if they think the profit outweighs the risk. And if one can afford or absorb the loss. Basic investing.

Dear KK, Actually, since I am not evil, I would not have backed him in my own interest in the first place. I am one of that rare breed who sticks with truth, even if it may not serve my own profit.

Dear rightturnonred, The US has scored 'large victories' gainst Al-Qaueda, as your post points out. However, Mr. Read's claim is shaky at best, for Iraq will never 'be secured' in any Hollywood sense. The problem is that the 'enemy' of the US is not a country, like 'Nazi' Germany, or 'Imerialist' Japan, or Iraq, but thought. Terrorism is a 'thought' too, (albeit an evil one) and manifests itself as a method, therefore declaring war on 'Terror' is even less sane than declaring war on winter.

Dear KK, LOL. Actually, I am a business owner with a some idea of how fiscal incentives work. The previous owner of the business (whom I worked for before owning) offered 'profit-sharing', through bonus incentives. This was mostly geared at keeping motivated employees whom were deemed valuable. I enjoy working, and have to date (I am now 36) collected 1 'unemployment cheque' thus far in my adult life. (After the restaurant I used to work in was sold, and I got my 'walking papers'). I feel that one only needs to look in the classified ads to see how much opportunity there is, and welfare burns my backside. As a socialist-leaning individual, I do not have to think that 'everyone should get a free ride'. As Marx (and some before him) said, "From each according to their ability". I vehemently think that this should include 'work for welfare', yet it is the gov't itself that seems to foil this, as they are certain to mis-manage it. The US is 'foisting democracy' because the dictatorship was no longer serving US interests. Just like Manuel Noriega. A US Army employee for 31 years, and paid by the CIA for 15 (admitted to in court by the US gov't). He ceased to be a 'moderate' when he tried to uphold the treaty signed by Carter and Truillos (the honouring of which was demanded by a UN resolution, which also demanded the immediate cessation of the illegal invasion and withdrawl of US forces) I would like to see where Saddam's cheques were coming from. His dictatorship ceased to serve the US interests and then the cry of 'Democracy! Freedom! War!' became louder than "Don't Trade With The Euro!"

Dear Mr. Read,, All of what you stated IS true, the Americans were fools on DDay in WWII. Not, of course, the brave soldiers who gave their lives, but the idiots who led them to near disaster, those who refused more experienced advice and let arrogance take the place of reason.

Dear Mr. Read, Your post is inaccurate on many levels. 1. The 'useful idiots' vote according to this theory, but do not understand Islam, nor the Iraqi people. Methinks you got this from CNN ( the most respected news source in Russia in the 80's, well before Clinton)2. Are you suggesting that Islam could be turned upon itself? Is the US suggesting this? I must say 'Rubbish'. 3. If 71.5% of Iraqi's supported occupation, in any legitimate sense of the word, so would the world. This number can obviously be thrown out the window. 4. Only those who fear what he might reveal wuld want him killed. The rest of us wish him to stand trial at The Hague, and hear (possibly) the truth! (gasp)5. Not while it is in the US' interests to have him as an enemy.

Dear Mr. Read, Kyoto is based largely on the whim (or conspiracy) of large multinationals, most based in the US. You seem to fear that they would lose 'their competative edge' if they were to be held accountable for pollution. They would simply go where there is no labour standards of pollution regulation, to maintain profititability. Yet, that is what you demand of them as an investor. Then, to counter these fears, say that pollution is not harmful. You are wrong on every count, but that is not an issue for you, as long as the profit increases.

Dear Mr. Read, Your beloved US of A is The fact is that are higher standards than the profit motive, yet you believe that they cannot exist without it.It is the fact that the US believes that ONLY the US shoud benefit from these standards that is That is why they support, fund, and sustain brutal dictatorships. These dictators control their labour camps. Perhaps we should be fighting to free the slaves in China, Taiwan and Bangladesh, who make the products for Martha Stewart, P.Diddy, J.C Penny and Wal-Mart. I 'Guess' freeing slaves would be treasonous.