SirRiff

it doesnt show a great amount of brain power when you use the words 'liberal' and -post-modern' like punctuation. i'm not sure if you think it makes you should smart (it doesnt), or makes a stronger argument (it doesnt), or keeps conservatives cheering, but its fairly useless. anyways, blaming philosophies for that fact there are millions upon millions of mexicans on teh border is like blaming canadians for the snow, beyond our control. SirRiff

they were never fighting for freedom, they were fighting to be the next oppressors, since everyone knew they were extreme from the start. by that logic ever two bit rebel group that wants to rule a country is worthy of aid. they arent SirRiff

have you looked at some of the studies and polls to come out about american knowledge recently? i cited one several times showing that the large sections of young americans couldnt find Israel, Iraq, Afganistan, and many other well known global hotspots on an unmarked map, not to mention oceans. then you have this great poll recently saying that near 70% of americans believe saddam was "likely" involved in 9/11, which of course comes straight from Bushs mouth. truly truly pathetic. sorry, but Canada, or the EU, or Asia for that matter dont envy the US. thats just another fictional excuse like the 9/11-saddam link that people use in times of stress to make themselves feel better. SirRiff

the modern day utopica of capitalism, the US, is eyeball deep in laws and regulations, but that doesnt stop the wealth disparity, nor the corruption, not the worsening problems of society. so even in this not so true form, this push to accumulate far beyond reasonable needs is unethical by design and consequence. it constantly needs to be tempered by laws that keep society from collapsing under gross injustice but the laws can never keep up. SirRiff

do tell who won afganistan? after millions of innocents were killed, maimed, and raped, who won afganistan? middle east oil secure at what cost? SirRiff

I dont think i have heard anybody say that some things are not decided to be bad and some things good. they obviously are by any civil society. i certainly dont know why you would think that. well for numerous reasons i think a reasonable person would agree that its always bad. now lets take another action, secretly financing, arming and training men who participate in, 'For instance, raping, sodomising, torturing and murdering a series of innocent and harmless 6-year-old girls.' now do you think that would be good or bad? If some people think it would be good, does that mean that it is sometimes good, always good, or always bad? because you seem to justity the very same actions by proxy wars. SirRiff

in all fairness, i would be trigger happy too if i was a US GI. and friendly fire is expected to happen in confusion. but man, this is baaad PR, especially in that town. SirRif

the fact that you dont even factor in the desperate poverty of these supposed evil cultures tells me this whole thread is a excercise in mental masterbation. when america first started it used blacks as slave labor untill they died. doesnt that mean all american culture is unethical? no, of course society was primitive then. just like egypt is a primative society today. its poor, over populated, governed by a corrupt government, and in a nasty part of the world. thus 99% of it isnt anything to do with ethics, you cant have ethics in hell holes like that, society there is at the lowest possible point. its easy to be civil when you have all the food water and shelter you need. SirRiff

uh, the US has no credabilty on human rights. the US installed General Pinochet in Chile on Sept 11, 1973, who went on to kill tens of thousands of deaths without a peep from the US, in fact the CIA is implicated with drawing up lists of possible opposition leaders. the US armed and trained osama and his crew and left them to run wild killing and raping in afganistan for 20 years- they walked away and never looked back. the US supported saddam while he was gassing his own people and killing iranians for no reason. so dont bring up that pathetic reasoning that americans care what happens to iraqis. most of them cant even point out many of these mentioned countries on a world map. all the examples above show americans dont know what thier gov does and dont care anyways. uh, the entire reason the US supported osama and his cre was that so the russians wouldnt threaten the middle east oil reserves. the US will buy the oil at a cheap price so they arent as reliant on saudi arabia. the oil belongs to iraq and iraqis will prosper just like Native Americans did by getting reservations. that could have been done after gulf war I if it was so important to the american people. if its all about democracy then why the hell was the US ever supporting iraq in the first place? why did it take saddams invasion into kuwait to get their attention? nope sorry, not a plausable reason. women being barred from school didnt seem to bother america when they were shipping weapons to osama and his crew. and religous intolerance wasnt so bad when they needed saddam to beat iran. nope, not the reason. well since he never had anything to threaten the US, that is a lie. anybody with a large stick can kill an american walking around. he was contained and useless. they are a third world nation. the whole WMd thing was a red herring. the US is the greatest WMD holder on earth. if you went after ever nation who can dry bacteria canada would be next. its obvious the technology that iraq had is available to any number of countries and cannot be a grounds for destruction. notice that bush doesnt mention WMD much anymore. they are just some barrels hidden in the desery somewhere that are useless. uh isnt sending money to osama and his crew and supporting saddam and General pinochet terorism? the US has supported many of the worst dictators in the last 50 years. 70% of americans stupidly think that saddam was "likely" involved in 9/11, which tells you the average insight of post 9/11 america. the US has sent far more money to violent men then saddam ever would have. so once again, the "reasons" just turn out to be knee jerk recycled material. Sirriff

uh you just implied that russia was out to rule the world but the US wasnt. you think thats true? you seem to be allergic to numbers. tell us what this new dictator did after receiving help from the US. give us some examples of how many people he killed and how the US reacted to it. becaues that is just another example of being "stingy with the truth" as you put it. there is alot of information on what he did, so why dont you enlighten us all with the truth, what did the US supported Pinochet do and how many did he kill? why do you think it was a hard choice? i dont think it weighed on thier minds at all, after all, the same sorts of people did it in iran in 1953, they allied with osama nad his crew in teh 80s, they supported hussiain in the 80s, they dealth with iran in the 80s. considering it was done in secret, at the expense of thousands of lives, and they never said a word about the terrors ever again, it seems much more likely it was a very easy dispassionate choice they made. no reason to think otherwise based on the declassified CIA documents made available adn the lack of any official response as they found out about teh suffering. that doest make sense. the US overthrowing a gov is not less threatening then Russia supporting a puppet regime. the US did the exact same thing as every other evil power. thats actually a very illogical thing to say, that there are less dangerous ways to threaten democracy by toppling governments. by definition, you destory democracy when you topple a gov, regardless of intention. no but they were itching to get a stable gov that could keep the trade going and money flowing and intelligence coming and doing their dirty work and so on and so on. that is obviously why they keep topping governments and supporting dictators. SirRiff

what was overthrowing the iranian gov in 1953? fighting for what beliefs exactly? training and arming osama and his crew? what belief was that leaving them to rape afganistan for 20 years? the 1973 chilean coup? what belief was overthrowing a democratically elected gov to install a military dictator who killed tens of thousands?what belief was that? supporting both iran and iraq while they gassed and killed each other? what great belief was that? i dont see any great beliefs the US is fighting for. they have supported many of the south american and middle eastern dictators for thier own profit while thousands where killed every year. there is no great belief, why the hell do you think saudi arabia is such a great ally for 50 years? because you both believe in democracy? nope, its all about cheap oil = power. thats it folks. dont fool yourselves. just because W's speachwriters say it, doesnt make it true. SirRiff

well one could argue in its truest form it encourages not talking what you need, but to take everything in sight, with no thought about the consequences. thus you have a few people taking the vast amount of resources leaving others to suffer disproportionately for no real practical reason. when you take this up to the level of corperations like majors banks and oil companies and so on and so on, you have oganizations designed and operated specifically to take as much as humanly possible indefinately. so yeah, i think you could call that unethical, since ethically, i dont think you can justify taking as many resources at teh expense of others. especially when the richest dont need or make much practical use of most of their resources. SirRiff

you mean other then being part of a string of poor nations the US has covertly influenced through para-military operations and then left to be brutalized by the very men it empowered who later threaten to export that very same violence? because we all know there is nothing to learn from repeatidly secretly arming terrorists, abandoning them when your interests are met, then proclaiming confusion years later when the violence comes home to roost. SirRiff

what is it with the bashing of novas education? did he drop out of harvard and become a porn star or something? didnt we go over this already Fastned? i thought you had choosen a different perspective on this sort of thing. the current discussion is all over the map, but the thread started on altruism of America. Fastned said it isnt and people should stop expected it to act like it is or something. well i dont know if anybody else watches the 6:30 american news, ABS/CBS/NBC or whatever, but it CERTAINLY shows a society that considers itself altruistic on many issues. hell if you just look at Bush blab about all america does for the world, you would think you guys are like red cross volunteers. its crazy. I wonder how many americans know that yesterday, sept 11th, was also the 30th anniversay of the US sponsored military coup in Chile, which setup General Pinochet to terrorize the nation for years. The CIA helped to destabolize a democratically elected gov, then helped to draw up lists of thousands of possible opposition leaders, most of which were executed by death squads. here are just a few links that detail the CIA operations, covert funding, and terror the US assisted in 1973 Chile. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB...B8/nsaebb8i.htm http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/us...chile_1973.html http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Terroris...oup_USHand.html http://www.socialconscience.com/articles/2.../2002/chile.htm but yet most americans dont know about it, certainly dont care about it, and yet are convinced by their leaders they make the most sacrifices of any nation on earth out of pure humanity. so yes americans do think they are altruistic, becaues if Chilean terrorists bombed LA, the first question would be once again "why do they hate us"?. so its definately a cause of mass delusional self proclaimed altruism. SirRiff

i have always been very very conscious of how i value the environment. i have never littered and recycle whenever possible. just common sense in my opinion. the problem is that alot of people feel no personal accountabilty because the problem occurs so slowly its unlikely it will ever effect thier lifes in a concret way during thier time on earth. the problem shows up slowly in cancer rates, national parks becoming trashy, asthma rates increasing, and so on. it pisses me off that we as a progressive nation cant come to a national concensus that we dont have any more land after this, and its much harder to clean a nation up then it is to not pollute in the first place. these are the kinds of things that great leaders should see and lead people on, things that the ordinary person with an ordinary job wouldnt think of or see ahead of time. one of us on this thread will have a kid or grandkid who will suffer because of it. hell, i think just being environmentally friendly as a nation will reap technological and efficiency benefits along teh way. Sirriff

its certainly troubling that we as a first world nation have trouble contributing to the rest of the world. however you have to look at it realistically. are we going to send out money to get wasted by corrupt governments in africa and the middle east? Mugabe in Africa already sends foor preferentially to his political party supporters. he recently said he wants his men alone to handle the UN food aid. the US rejected that, saying that the food would be used as privalleges. they said they would stop the food aid program rather then give it to Mugabe to be abused, which would leave millions upon millions of Africians without food. this is an example of the problems we face when we seek to contribute. we just cant write a blank check for two reasons, we cant affored it, and most likely it will be eaten up without good use. shoiuld we send out troops to occupy iraq and get shot at in IRaq? its very very expensive to get your hands dirty, so we have to pick the ones that we actuallly contribute in a meaningfull way. also you gotta look at population growth too, canada vs the world. from the UN; Year ------ 1975 -------- 2001 ------- 2015 Canada --- 23.1 ------- 31.0 -------- 34.1 World ----- 4,068.1 ---- 6,148.1 ---- 7,197.2 % ---------- 0.568 ------- 0.504 ------ 0.474 thus our proportional global population contribution is going down because the world population continues to grow at alarming rates. even the US with its influx of mexican immigrants will not be able to maintain its per capital prosperity going from 288M to 329M in the next 15 years, as many of the recent immigrants to north america will be largely unskilled coming from poor nations. so i gotta say, as much as i think we should do more, i gotta wonder how can avoid just wasting precious resources. i like the idea of joining region alliances that have specific long term goals in regions of the world. we will never be able to rescue africa from starvation and war, but there are intelligent wants to help out specific governments that show democratic and civl policies. the world is too fucked up, i can see how its easier to blow stuff up with F-16s then send food. SirRiff

you can bitch about welfare, and i'm not a fan of lazy people getting my tax money, but Canada doesnt have the violence that comes from having poor people who become desperate. its much cheaper on a decade by decade measure to prevent the problems associated with having a desperate underclass then it is to provide basic social services. not every welfare recip is a life long leech. some maybe, most possibly, but there definately are some it helps to move on. the concept is sound we just gotta get rid of the worst leechers. SirRiff

I submit that your personal view of a genocidal attack does not reflect the true meaning of the world, or its historical context. if your base your conclusion that america is under genocidal attack from the worlds of some insane terrorists, you are obviously working on faulty information. for instance, 30 years ago the US helped General Pinochet to come to power who immediately went on to execute thousands of resistance leaders. did the US launch a genocide attack on chileans? i would think so. so americans deserved to be nuked? another error i think you make is assuming that america would be able to survive in any recognization form after this massive global genocide takes places. the number of nations that are able to start the begining of the end of the world through nuclear holocaust is growing. the US cannot 'win' a world war. it will be destroyed in part or whole. it can fight a world war, but it cant win. thus it is not a zero sum game, taking everything alway from your proposed enemy does not assure victory, as the enemy is desperate and capable enough to end modern civilization as we know it. thus the only way the US can win is not to force others in the world into a position of desperation. the consequences to america are inescapable. there is this cowboy metality that americans seem to have that you can go blow them all up and then just go home, and everythign will be just like it was, but without the enemy. that just doesnt exist anymore. global trade and hyper militarization assures the US will suffer proportionately with the world. SirRiff

i think you are making an error of logic in assuming that its a problem that can ever be solved. some teens may want to get pregnant, some may accept it as the reality of life, some may abort the child or give it up, some may ruin thier lives over it. its a reality of this thing we call life. just because teen pregnancy exists does not mean Canada is doing something wrong. SirRiff

HUGO uh well lets see... 1973 america assisted to overthrow a democratically elected gov and replaced it with a man who killed tens of thousands of people 1953 overthrow irans gov 80s sent $3 Billion to osama and his crew, who later raped afganistan and then came home to roost on 9/1 80s supported saddam against iran, and iran against saddam, all the while he was building and using the dreaded/elusive WMDs. and so on and so on...there are too many coups to list in teh last 50 yeras. so considering the US helped corrupt governments to kills perhaps 100,000 people, they owe the world alot i would suspect, at least in terms of the human suffering they caused and benefited from. uh...does slavery or Native Americans fit in there anywhere? my god man, 70% of Americans think Saddam was likely involved in 9/11. there are certain things that are true nad some that are not. since the begining of time civilizations struggled, america was no different. the rest of the world just doesnt wave a flag for every little thing. SirRiff

while its certainly not polite, i dont think its unfair to compare americans assisting General pinochet to overthrow a democratically elected gov and kill tens of thousands of innocents with 9/11. if saudi arabia toppled my government and helped to kill my family and terrorize my nation, i would be tempted to suicide bomb them too. the grief that america feels is felt 10 fold by its victims, and on this very sad day, nothing more valuable can be gained then insight. all life is precious. americans are not more human then the Chileans were. that fact that the CIA helped to draw up lists thousands and thousands of possible resistance leaders who were all executed by death squads should ring as loudly as the services at ground zero. SirRiff

no economist agrees with the truth of economics. each side had thier own philosophy and there is no consensus at all. national debts come along with huge budgets and the complexities of the modern world. i have no idea how to 'fix' the economy, because if no other nation in history has been immune from recessions and shit we wont be either. its the ebb and flow of the global economy. we will get through it, and there is nothing that a liberal or a conservative knows that will get it done faster. it will take the 31 million citizens of Canada working everyday and paying taxes to recover. simple as that. yeah well we still live along the highest quality of life in the world, and we have been Canada for a long long time. if everything we taxed was so flawed, we would have collapsed already. our high taxes give alot back socially, and it seems to be working pretty well so far. we live healtheir, longer, less violent lives then the US. its not just coincidence man. there is a reason. Canada can surive high taxes. we are dong very well with them actually. well considering the ENTIRE WORLD covets the $$$ in the US, its not just a canadian fault. I got offered a job in san diego last week but i didnt take it. so there. the brain drain just lost one. i have not heard of anybody laying on the street dying because there were no doctors. i can buy computer parts, adn electronics, and my portable mp3 player, and everything else capatalism brings. hell the US buys most of its stuff from china or taiwan or whatever, so if they must rely on the rest of the world, so do we. its not a fault it just a reality. its a reality of global trade. the US cant even escape it, we just have to deal with it man. life is hard. yeah it is pretty strained. but you know what, that is generally because there are more nad more people who demand better health care and who live longer. not the liberals fault people have sex and live longer. either you cut services, or spend more money. either way its a cost benefit analysis. i aint a doctor or health administraiter, so i dont know, but EVEN under the strain, we are not dying of SARS or having heart attacks in the streets. we are still among the healthiest nation on earth. its getting harder, but it has nothing to do with politics. too many people demanding too many services living too long. there is no magic bullet regardless of what peope say. yeah well its pretty hard to design something that works for everyone. the economy is bad i know. of course, i',m sure by rejecting peope on welfare, they will only find other ways to drain society link crime or drugs or whatever, adn the cost of that is much worse, as we see in teh US. again, politics dont solve the problem, there is no easy answer. $$$ is needed or we have to kick people out on the street. yeah well what middle class women wants to have 10 kids? wealth always reduces the birth rates, because women have contraception and career aspirations, and can pick and choose thier pregnancies. that is just advancing society, nothing else. well that is in part due to stress in society and all that other crap. not to mention, if a young girl wants to have sex, nobody can stop her. in a civil society we are not going to punish her for this. its tough on her, and her kid, but its the reality of modern life. same with divorce, modern society isnt interested in lifelong commitments it seems. thats the reality, no politics there. it would be better for society to help young mothers and offter greater help for stressed out couples. well yeah, but what are we gong to do. India and mexico are getting the jobs from the US too. again, its the reality of modern global trade and no Canadian government or party can change it. its beyond us. we just need to adapt as best we can like everyone else really. you dont have to tell me about this, i had a tough time after school and i think i will have to go back to earn a decent wage. so many people, bad ecnomoy, competition. its just reality nowadays. SirRiff

you know, people should be carefull about he cries of some who declare society is falling apart and radical changes are needed right now, and of course, they are the ones who should do it. why? because some views can only get attention by claiming everything right now is wrong. is everything in Canada wrong? no is any part of society falling apart? i dont see it. our general path for hte last 50 years has been very good. how can we conclude this? a nation must provide for its citizens, somethign which canada has done. we are not dying, nor poor, nor uneducated, nor ignorant, nor racist, or ignorant. just because a large minority of Canada thinks different does not mean we are one the verge of collapse. the sky is not falling. everyday Canada is fantastic, best in the world. better then the US even. it would be much more respectable to make arguments for the betterment of Canada rather then just yelling that everything is wrong. Everythign is not wrong if you look at it. we are actually doing very very well. find out ways to do better. SirRiff

who is actually going to do all this crusading? Iraq has shown ever the strongest nation on earth cant do it alone, the cost is $4 billion/month, even thier own studies show they cant maintain troops levels there safely, and their own citizens have no patience for long term sacrifice. middle class citizens want their house, their job, and thier family safe. the coming hardships of iraq will turn off american citizens and politicians off just like vietnam did. the third world will go to hell and bring us all down. SirRiff