Machinations

More evidence you have no idea of the breadth of this subject. From http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=1017 - this is recent, as opposed to earlier in Beirut where it was quite common. Essentially, yes. Everything you have learned is ass-backwards, as they might say. Do you know what a fertilizer bomb is? Think Oklahoma City. They do not, contrary to appearances, have a well-armed society. Quite the contrary. Also worth noting is in that section of the world, Ak-47s can be manufactured in kilns (im not joking) and cost less than a bag of clothing. Its the ammo thats expensive. As to why don't they build more homes - easy - they can't get permits from Israel. Eventually families build anyway with the help of international aid organization - basic cinderblock affairs, mind you - but a roof, nonetheless. However, Israel has a nasty habit of demolishing homes without permits. A statistic? Israel has demolished approx. 4,170 Palestinian homes since 2000. In case youre wondering, in the same period, Palestinians demolished 0 Israeli homes. So, the wall is going to help....how? Its a friggin wall, you can throw crap over it..or is this some new super-wall with technologies I cannot possibly comprehend? Edit: Wait - I know - its a force field, and its linked up via the internet to the magical missile defense shield. Quoth Britney:

Silly me. I thought it was because they were kept stateless in the modern equivalent of concentration camps. These are ghettos. Right, because the 4th most powerful military in the world's just purpose is to oppress a people that don't own the land they live on, in Israel's eyes. I'd like to move you to Lebanon. Bombs are bombs, whether its a 'terrorist' setting them off or your friendly neighbourhood Israeli. Terrorism is not justified, but to win a war, you must understand your enemy. Critical analysis leads me to believe that these kinds of punitive attacks on mostly innocent people actually help the extremists recruit. When there are no rocks left to throw at tanks maybe the IDF will stop shooting bullets. How disingenous - the Palestinians have been trying to win a fair shake for 38 years. This included peaceful, nonviolent resistance. You, apparently, think Israel really is blessed by god, and the Arabs deserve to live in squalour. Not because they live in ghetto with little control over their own lives? No, because of the 'terrorists'. Consider if you were born there - what makes a terrorist different from another frustrated Palestinian? Right - there are no moderate peaceful representatives! BS. Israel uses this mantra as an excuse to talk to noone, while in fact there are many moderates in Palestinian society and they are well respresented. Perhaps you should ask yourself why Israel refuses to allow a UN peacekeeping force into the Occupied Territories, or why Israel's ally the US uses its veto even now to block a UN deployment to southern Lebanon. Or why Israel remains in contradiction of more UN orders than any other nation on earth. Not something you hear about on CNN. Of course not. That doesnt make it any less of the driving factor for those that do. Do you think a Palestinian raised in Canada would become a terrorist? Is there terrorist DNA? What makes people go to extremes? Please, the floor is yours. I'd love to hear your analysis of why people join the varied extremist organizations - usually with specific aims, such as 'Free Gaspe!'. Herein lies your great fallacy - is it about Israel, or about Jews? Because certainly Israel does not speak for all Jews, and more than Jews have a home in Israel, right? Oh wait - one little contradictory bit - Jews in Israel carry a identity card that marks them as different from all other religious denominations based on 'Hebrew Date of Birth' - which does not appear on other cards. Jews are the only ones who can hold many public offices, and private companies are free to hire 'Jews Only'. No, its not like in Canada. I suppose you need a cite for that: From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teudat_Zehut - Teudat Zehut is the name of the identity documentation. Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab - see the section on discrimination for further sources. Sounds like a real free society to me. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Do you know who uses car bombs? Israel. They confiscate vehicles then use them in assassination attempts. I guess you cannot understand why these people might be angry - I attribute that to your lack of education, honestly. No, capitalism's free markets strangled the Soviets because we generated far more wealth than they did. Our military spending, my oh-so-unlearned friend, had remained high throughout the Cold War. No, I mean opinions like yours that are unsupported by any fact. Every schmuck from here to Islamabad has an opinion, but what makes it matter is the validity of the argument. Here, you wade into a discussion you clearly have no background in. First, try googling spelling - you know, it might help. It would also help if you did some basic reasearch on this topic before attempting to argue. Since you cant be bothered to look up 'unequivocally' I doubt you bothered to look up much more, besides maybe Little Green Footballs. They didnt vote in a government that wanted war. In case you missed it, they have no military. The war was forced on them, but by Israel. These people are STATELESS living in REFUGEE CAMPS - capiche? I truly hope some 'political dissident' decides to purchase a home next to yours in the coming decade. In fact, this is the logic behind 9/11 - if those Americans hide out amongst civilians, they don't get a free pass. Notice how quick you are to whitewash the crimes that led us into this mess? The United States has a long history of oppressing or even overthrowing leftist South American governments. Argentina is most prominent in mind. This is beyond arguement. No, Israel started building the second Berlin wall - through Palestinian buildings and through Palestinian land, which they held valid title to. You expect people to have everything taken from them and to sit on their hands? Again, your rabid bias can only be the product of limited reading, or intellectual dishonesty.

Yes, because the average parent is *far" more capable of delivering a balanced education than the state. Let's face facts - homeschoolers are homeschooled usually because of the parents religious attitudes. These parents wish to have the right to indoctrinate their children in various, often anti-societal belief systems. Furthermore, most parents are so uninvolved with their childrens lives that they tend to have the television set as their constant companion. I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching, say 'killing is wrong' in public schools - do you? It would help if you could give an idea exactly what kind of information you object to. Sorry, but no. Public education remains the best system, regardless of what the morality police tell you. You suggest people may be arrested for teaching their children things which contradict what the state has told them. This can happen already, in Canada - preaching hatred and inciting violence is illegal, and a savvy lawyer can easily connect the dots between a homophobic, closed upbringing and a hate crime perpetuated later in that individuals life.

Yeah, this is some of the 'interesting' history I have been mentioning. Hell, half the people that spout off here seem to believe Israel has existed as a country since biblical times. People would do well by a little reading - you might even be surprised. Especially when you read accounts of Jewish terrorism during the British Mandate under the auspices of the Irgun (which was disbanded, however many Israeli politicians were former members). These included, but were no means limited to: -Bombing British jails and murdering British soldiers -Bombings of civilian buildings -Poisoning of village water supplies -Kidnappings and beatings People should try reading a bit before forming opinions on a complex subject. Helps keep you from looking like a fool.

Lies, lies and stinking lies. The Palestinians dont have a military and during the entire, 38 year Occupation, the vast majority of the killing has been done by Israelis to Palestinians, to an order of at least 4:1. You might have something in common with Israelis - your willingness to justify evil actions by the intended result. Well, I know where good intentions lead and I do NOT support Israel. Let's cut off the 100$ billion in military aid and let them fight their own wars. In fact, let me pull a page from your playbook - since you like it so much, why don't YOU move there. Actually, my friend, economics broke the back of the Soviets. Nothing Reagan did really could have altered it. What was he going to say, no, keep the wall up? I do remember he managed to fly down for a photo-op though. Actually, I'm just sick of dealing with a monolithic, ill-informed viewpoint. I only have so much unpaid time to waste trying to change indoctrinated minds. Also, some just are'nt worth it. People who talk about 'liberal bias' in the media, for starters. Also, at his age, is'nt it time he got his own place? /snark Um - I don't know, for weeks? Hamas also, prior to this whole imbroglio, recognized Israel. These facts however are not constantly blared from on high into your TV screen. I guess your argument is - since the Palestinians have nobody Israel WANTS to talk to, they dont have to talk. Instead, lets keep them in their ghettos and move the tanks in. Real lesson Israel is trying to teach: dont vote for people we dont like. And the innocent people who just happen to live in the wrong place? Too bad, you'll say? When the shoe is on the other foot I'll remember. This is the lack of humanity I detest. People who dont care if many, many innocents are slain so long as punishment is meted out. You call this an appropriate response?

Its weird but speculation does little good. Also, they have very good security details. I mean *very* *good*. However, if we, as thinking individuals, were to assume that they were just having tea, I think we would be being foolish. What do the most powerful people in the world talk about over lunch? Shop, I would guess. Yeah, I'm not convinced these are the kinds of people we want in control, honestly.

Forgive me. The man at the depanneur at the corner, he owns it with his family. He has two cute daughters that also work with him that I make a point of flirting with. They were supposed to go to Lebanon this summer to visit their grandmother. My friend became worried, before the trip, and cancelled - thankfully. They would have left only two weeks before the bombing started. My friend managed to talk to his mother yesterday for the first time since this started...he spoke to her for only a minute or two and the line went dead. Put yourself in his shoes - in their shoes. Morality - humanity, these are qualities I respect and I see little humanity in many of the asinine comments here. Forgive me if I get upset, but unlike the vast majority of you, I have a personal connection to the crisis. The appaling lack of humanity displayed by some here stirred up anger in me that has, in the past, caused me to get arrested. Hence, I expunge it on these boards. Also, no one has responded to my assertation: Israel is punishing Lebanon for the results of the elections. They wish to make ordinary Lebanese fear Hezbollah as much as they do Israel, so that Hezbollah never becomes invested in the political process again. Now this is clearly the motive, right down to the pamphlets they are dropping from warplanes. But you won't hear that in the mainstream media - might make people think. August - as to target selection - the Israelis have noone on the ground, AFAIK. For example, a Christian neighbourhood was hit with two Israeli missiles yesterday. Their target? Two water-drilling machines that the media helpfully volunteered 'might have been mistaken for missile launchers'. Never mind that they look NOTHING like WW2-era Katuyshas - they look like civilian water drills. Apparently 'surgical strikes' don't come with malpractice insurance - you know?

Shady, move out of your moms basement and I'll try to educate you. The first step is the hardest.

See, you have lots of opinion, but very little knowledge. If you had an education, or even an understanding of the history of the conflict, your opinion would'nt be so worthless. As it stands you were educated by Fox, CBC and CNN. Have you ever even picked up a history book? I thought so. Just to point out your first fallacy, Israel has the 4th most powerful military in the world, and by far the most powerful military in the region. They also possess nuclear arms. Israel is a regional superpower, and to say that 'numerous attempts by most powerful military to take them out' is straight-up retarded. What powerful military? Syria and Egypt in 1967 were using old Soviet hardware. Israel had the latest and greatest from the god-blessed US of A - and they still do. You go on to compare WW2 to the current conflict, as though atrocities commited in the heat of a civilzation-destroying war are comparable to a war of revenge persecuted by Israel mostly against civilians. Israel is not under threat of destruction - hell , I saw an Israeli diplomat saying people should not cancel their travel plans! Reality check: WW2 involved many nations and millions died, FYI. Everytime another apartment building blows up, thats another Made in the USA sticker. Cha-ching!, as some would say.

Do any of us doubt that if he had the authority, he would? I, for one, am glad we no longer live under despots. Sure, there are monarchists in Canada, but they are dinosaurs, and I am hoping this generation will see us sever our outdated, symbolic, costly association to the Britsh Monarchy. I for one feel no special affinity for the woman or her overprivileged spawn.

Right, because all Canadians were born here, right? What a jackass. Say that to a Lebanese-Canadians face, coward.

A stupid rhetorical question. The answer, of course, is no. If it makes you happy to poke fun at the Geneva accords, good for you. I am sure many WWII veterans appreciate your opinion. On both sides of the Atlantic.

My humble analysis? He's drinking again.

Huh? Exactly how has Bush fought 'tooth and nail' for democracy? Hes been sitting in an air-conditioned office, last time I checked, eating buttered rolls and talking shit. For a successful reconstruction look at post WW2 Japan. Now look at Iraq. Any questions? Unless rational thought died in the intervening 40 years, what we have here is a monumental failure. I fail to see why I should commend a leader who could not accomplish his mission. Bush, throughout his tenure, has been more interested in social policies than waging any War on Terror or spreading democracy. He advanced a corporate agenda primarily. If anything, Bush has been the halfhearted mascot of democracy - unfortunately it is all too easy to pin a 'Kick Me' sign on his back.

Too bad the so-called naivite was demonstrated, in this case, by a Conservative. I think your entire 'reconstruction plan' was also cooked up by Conservatives (the so-called Neo-Cons) - so I fail to see how Liberals should take note, except to comment on your failures. What was Putin to say? 'Yes, we would love a country teetering on the abyss of a religious civil war.'

I might be the first to ask, but - who cares? What are you - 18? 'If the democrats retake control, we would have terrorist attacks every month' Its typical of the unthinking allegiance allocated the so called 'Party of God' in the United States. The ignorance - or at least lack of reasoning ability - is, sadly, also more the norm than they would like you to know.

Ohhhh! Silly me. I thought the softwood trade crisis predated the 'deliberate insulting Bush'- as did the NAFTA panel hearings ruling against the Americans, the WTO rulings, ad nauseaum. The Americans have been strongarming us over a deal cut by the last Conservative PM, Brian Mulroney. That is a fact. And the strongarming won't stop because we have a pliant PM in office. It is revealing that you consider the relationship between Canada and the United States to be so one sided. You fail to consider the complexities of trade - including the fact that our 'dependant' economy still has a currency which competes with the greatest economic power on earth. Perhaps instead of using the United States as a yardstick, you should realize that are many emerging markets we could position ourselves to take advantage of. It is clear our relations with the US will be increasingly one-sided - Harper has gone for the supplicant approach - I would have thought diversification would be a better strategy. But, hey, what do I know? Besides, I was more interested in how you manage to find Israel's actions defensible.

Your intro here is funny, kudos. Since this is a tangent, let me add: You seem like a wild partisan. I think you would vote for a panda if it had a 'Conservative' sticker slapped on its back. Raising the 'comfort level', as you put it, down South should not be our primary concern. This is not some twisted parental relationship - they need us nearly as badly as we need them. Grovelling is optional, but not in my repetoire. Harper however seems good at it. If anything someone needs to look out for the interests of all Canadians, whatever our friend to the south is up to. The last thing we need is an American crony. Our interests diverge at many points. I do not wish to become a province of the new Rome.

Actually Dog you are incorrect here, in a way. Hezbollah was formed as a response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Hezbollah did not exist prior to this. Hezbollah was formed directly by Iran in response to the Israeli invasion. Israel 'responded' by creating its own Christian militas, inflaming a decade long religious civil war. Let's not forget that US Marines were also operating in Beirut, contrary to what Congress and the american people were told, during the invasion. This was revealed when a car bomb was detonated at the secret US Barracks in Lebanon, forcing Reagan to pull all ground forces out - though presumably, special forces units remained active for some time, as is often speculated. I suggest Israel is intending to punish Lebanon for the results of the elections. The idea being to make the vast majority of Lebanese, the moderates, fear Hezbollah as much as they do the Israelis. This also has much to do with internal Israeli politics, which are driven mostly by security concerns. Olmert is seen as a lawyer - and his position has traditionally been held by a 'strongman', if you will. Many Israelis will assert in Haa'retz that Olmert is partially using this offensive to display his 'strength'. State sponsored terrorism in the modern era.

In essence I agree. Israel has a right to defend itself. However, this response has been, as they say in news releases, 'disproportionate'. Israel has at least the appearance (and this in itself can be damaging) of being engaged in a deliberate collective punishment - state-sponsored terrorism. I have no problem with Israel stopping rocket fire from terrorists living in Lebanon, but I am certain that bombing random rural villages many miles from the border (which demonstratably had no military value) does not help accomplish that goal. There is nothing stopping Israel from halting the large scale bombardments (which seem designed to kill and maim as many as possible) and actually trying to track down the people they want. Israel is clearly in the wrong here, if the release of the soliders and the stopping of rocket fire is the real goal. Of course, someone might suggest that Israel wishes to make sure Lebanese never allow Hezbollah to become invested in the political process again, by making them fear the results of their own elections. But hey, call my a cynic - in the US they can elect a near-illiterate mouth breather and no one bats an eye.

In Lebanon, they are not a terrorist group. They are part of the political process. Something many forget is that Hezbollah owes it's existance to the earlier 1982 invasion of Lebanon (Im sure you remember - the one where Reagan said there were no marines in Beirut a couple days before they blew up the barracks, along with some 300 marines - it was a big international incident, but is conveniently left out of your history primers). When Israel backed a Christian militia in the ensuing civil war, Iran backed a Shiite militia. Both state actors (Iran AND Israel) were meddling in the internal affairs of Lebanon. So let's not pretend the Israelis have not stirred this up themselves. If the PM of Lebanon tried to restrain the militias, he would likely be met with civil war, which NOONE (I pray) wants. Why not help the Lebanese restrain the militas with a UN deployment...oh thats right..the US and Israel don't want that, and the US has a veto. I guess this is semantics - unless it happened to you. If your whole family died in a bomb strike, could you call it a 'slaughter'? I sure as hell would. Most Lebanese are not firing missiles into Israel. What are they to think? What we are accomplishing, in record time, is a new generation of people with a valid reason to hate the West. I suppose this is the only way you can parse this complex situation - by reducing it to inane simplicities. Imagine instead that the town couldnt do anything about it, because the town had no police force and the robber had a gang that was more powerful. Maybe the 'Federalies' could step in to help the town get rid of their gang problem? Or we could just burn the whole town down, children and all. I guess thats acceptable to you. Now your logic has completely fallen apart. Lebanese are not doing any such thing. Using our earlier analogy, criminals hiding amongst the civilians are. 'Snakes in the grass', if you will. So how then does a state actor, with all the might and power of a modern military (FYI Israel has the 4th MOST powerful military in the world) justify it? The only way I can see is that they consider Lebanese lives worth less than Israeli lives. It's simple..to make an omelet, crack a few eggs, right? This is a state-sponsored terroism campaign. It will be coming to a theater near you, circa 2100. My snivelling? You are literally tripping all over yourself to be an Israeli apologist. You know how the terrorist justify bombing buildings? Using your logic. If it kills a bunch of innocents, as you say - TOO DAMNED BAD. 'Those Americans need to stop selling Israel weapons to use on Palestinians.' Because that is exactly how they justify it. Peaheads like you could destroy the world. It terrifies me to think how simple these people are.

Which further illustrates why your opinion is worthless. The Occupied Territories are not a nation. They have no army, no control over their borders, no control over currency. They live under a military occupation that is now in it's 38th year. It is the equivalent of the infamous ghettos created by the Nazis in occupied Poland. I suggest, since you obviously have time on your hands, Argus, that you do a little reading. What you learn might surprise you. The injustices are not 'historical', they are now. They are every day. The way you put it, this is all very simple. Let me guess, you think the war in Iraq was a good idea, right? It is leading to increased security for the United States and her allies? Contributing to regional stability? If you believe any of the above is answered in the affirmative, you have no credibility, in my eyes. If you cannot acknowldge facts on the ground because of your ingrained bias, you are not a credible person in which to engage in discussion. You in fact deny reality when it does not fit your narrow worldview.

I can only assume that you spend little time reflecting on your positions. Given your prior analogy (which was incorrect, since the Hezbollah guerillas are not the Lebanese army) of American soldiers crossing the border to kidnap a Canadian soldier - would you hold all Americans guilty? Would this then justify wholesale slaughter, the targeting of civilian facilities and the complete isolation of the nation? The Israelis can and have inflicted collective punishment on all Lebanese. How many more Lebanese must die before we've spanked them hard enough - when does the punishment end? In your worldview, which is admittedly as ill-informed as most of the trash that pollute the gutter, jailing an entire town - without trial or any due process - because one person living there committed an armed robbery would be acceptable. You belong in a dictatorship, and do not deserve liberty, since you are so quick to throw others to the dogs. These are innocents, something your arrogance seems unable to empathize. Even if Lebanon is unable to control the south of the country, does that mean it is Israel's to destroy? What gives Israel the right to indiscriminately target civilians and civilian infrastructure? What makes Israeli lives worth more than Canadians living in Lebanon? You have very little humanity in you if you can not see the great injustice being commited here. The lesson being taught to the Middle East? Jewish lives are worth countless Arab mothers, daughters, and sons. For each Israeli who dies, Israel will kill 100 Arabs. Is that not so? How ironic that the specter of the new facism rises under the wings of those persecuted by the Nazis. For facist it is. Shame on you.

I recommend, Sir - as Dick Cheney does - you simply keep the dial firmly affixed to Fox News. That way nothing disturbing to your worldview will come down the pipeline. The rest of us, we'll read multiple sources and make up our own minds. I stand by the BBC and CBC, I think they are both excellent news organizations. I don't think you could stretch any further than the logic we see here - where quotations that are perceived as negative to the right-wing show supposed bias. Are the quotes not valid? Perhaps if you disputed the validity of the reporting as opposed to 'what' is being shown - in other words, if you debunked them - you might have more success. In terms of claims of bias. one thing can be said: It is demonstratable that reality has a left-wing bias.