No quick fix for equalization between provinces.

[NovaScotian]

Subsidies! What about the $16.6 billion to AECL or the numerous federal and provincial subsidies to auto and manufacturing. Or massive agriculture subsidies to agriculture and the oilsands? It should be known that the Atlantic region has the lowest subsidies to business in Canada per capita. I wish I could find the article my prof showed us.

We wish you could too..

I cannot find the article online, but i have found references too it.

"For one thing, the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council has shown that, contrary

to public perception, total subsidies to business in Atlantic Canada (per capita)

are well below the Canadian average."

http://www.novascotiabusiness.com/site-nsb...it%20happen.pdf

[Canuck E Stan]

I cannot find the article online, but i have found references too it.

I think this is the article you're looking for....it comes from AIMS.

That's the group you said is only good in small doses.

So I guess we should take the facts with a grain of sea salt.

Subsidies to Atlantic Canada.

[NovaScotian]

No, this article was published by the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council (APEC). not AIMS. Following the Money trail was AIMS's response to the original study.

I found this quick blurb on there website.

"Vol. 39, No. 2, Summer 2004

In 2001, the total value of subsidies to businesses in Atlantic Canada was $648 million. That said, the vast majority of subsidies from all three levels of government in Canada are paid to firms in central and western Canada. In all four Atlantic provinces, total business subsidies have been trending downwards over the last decade. Relative to GDP, total business subsidies in Atlantic Canada have remained close to the national average throughout the last 15 years. As a share of industry GDP, they were higher than national rates in 1999/2000 in certain sectors. This reflects, in part, a regional focus on value-added resource-based and advanced manufacturing, among others. About half of the “business” subsidies in the region are directed towards non-commercial objectives, such as social housing and important ferry routes. Substantial questions remain about the impact of these subsidies on the regional economy. "

http://www.apec-econ.ca/Publications.asp?I...words=subsidies

[nbguyca]

[

Alberta would not have been a have provinces without the hard work and determination of Albertans.

But didn't you say in another thread that all your oil workers were from Newfoundland?

[jbg]

A rapid phaseout would seem in order. The Atlantic Provinces have been fouind to have oil, and it shouldn't be everyone elses' problem that obstacles to its development is being created at the provincial level. Ditto Saskatchewan. As far as Quebec goes, if they want to maintain a distinct society, let them pay for it.

[Michael Bluth]

But didn't you say in another thread that all your oil workers were from Newfoundland?

That's just been the new rig pigs the last two or three years.

[Knoss]

Mr. MacKinnon said there’s no quick fix for the situation, which requires better measurement mechanisms, but he suggested some remedies.

"It’s low corporate taxes, economical and manageable public services and a determination to avoid direct subsidies to businesses," he said, suggesting that the federal government could take on the debt and interest payments of provinces like Nova Scotia in lieu of equalization.

Interesting to note that Ontario and Alberta have the lowest corporate taxes, with economical and manageable public services and the least amount of subsidies to private business of all the provinces in Canada.

In other words, half the problem with the 'poor' Provincial governments is government incompetence in those Provinces with their noted passions for high corporate taxes and public services beyond their own means and high levels of political patronage and subsidies to private business. This fits the maritimes to a 't'.

Why should Alberta and Ontario taxpayers be forced to subsidize such ill-governance in a way that penalises themselves?

And wiping out provincial debts is the worst possible policy proscription since it creates a 'moral hazard' of govenment's getting out of responsibility for their own acts. They will then have every incentive to load up on debt and try to spend their way out of their problems with other poeple's money - again.

Might be an option to consider.

I'm sure the Maritime provinces would love it.

Look at Saskatchewan, we had not a surplus since the CCF came to power, but then the PC's come to power and first off, reorganise our debt so that it is apperent then looked for solutions. The biggest thing was lowering resoouce revenue and corperate tax in favour of consumption taxes, aslo selling off crown corperations to reduce losses. Two reasons Saskatchewan has a surplus are oil, which came inot being after Devine, and PST, wich the PC's were defeated over but the NDP introduced (breaking a major campagin promise).

[jbg]

And wiping out provincial debts is the worst possible policy proscription since it creates a 'moral hazard' of govenment's getting out of responsibility for their own acts. They will then have every incentive to load up on debt and try to spend their way out of their problems with other poeple's money - again.

One of the most brilliant things that Alexander Hamilton did that made the United States truly united was assumption for state debt, primarily, at that time, Revolutionary War debt, by the Feds. The states that wanted to continue going their own way were furious, of course.

[jbg]

Look at Saskatchewan, we had not a surplus since the CCF came to power, but then the PC's come to power and first off, reorganise our debt so that it is apperent then looked for solutions. The biggest thing was lowering resoouce revenue and corperate tax in favour of consumption taxes, aslo selling off crown corperations to reduce losses. Two reasons Saskatchewan has a surplus are oil, which came inot being after Devine, and PST, wich the PC's were defeated over but the NDP introduced (breaking a major campagin promise).

1. I thought Devine was defeated over corruption and incompetence; and
   
2. I thought that the sealing industry saved Saskatchewan fiscally
   

[BornAlbertan]

And wiping out provincial debts is the worst possible policy proscription since it creates a 'moral hazard' of govenment's getting out of responsibility for their own acts. They will then have every incentive to load up on debt and try to spend their way out of their problems with other poeple's money - again.

One of the most brilliant things that Alexander Hamilton did that made the United States truly united was assumption for state debt, primarily, at that time, Revolutionary War debt, by the Feds. The states that wanted to continue going their own way were furious, of course.

Will you pay my mortgage for me? You can be my friend.

[Mad_Michael]

No, this article was published by the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council (APEC). not AIMS. Following the Money trail was AIMS's response to the original study.

I found this quick blurb on there website.

"Vol. 39, No. 2, Summer 2004

In 2001, the total value of subsidies to businesses in Atlantic Canada was $648 million. That said, the vast majority of subsidies from all three levels of government in Canada are paid to firms in central and western Canada. In all four Atlantic provinces, total business subsidies have been trending downwards over the last decade. Relative to GDP, total business subsidies in Atlantic Canada have remained close to the national average throughout the last 15 years. As a share of industry GDP, they were higher than national rates in 1999/2000 in certain sectors. This reflects, in part, a regional focus on value-added resource-based and advanced manufacturing, among others. About half of the “business” subsidies in the region are directed towards non-commercial objectives, such as social housing and important ferry routes. Substantial questions remain about the impact of these subsidies on the regional economy. "

http://www.apec-econ.ca/Publications.asp?I...words=subsidies

I hate statistical obfusication.

1. Atlantic Canada is the smallest population region in Canada with the smallest economy. Ergo, the gross amount of subsidies in Atlantic Canada is going to appear relatively small when compared with Quebec for example. As a percentage of GDP, subsidies in Atlantic Canada are among the highest in Canada and that's the real point.

2. Subsidies to private interests are highest in Quebec, then the Atlantic provinces. And which provinces have the strongest system of political patronage (i.e. corruption)? And which provinces are at the top of the list for receiving equalisation payments eh? They are one and the same.

[jbg]

Will you pay my mortgage for me? You can be my friend.

Many of the states whose debts were being "assumed" did not consider it the least bit friendly. It is one of the main reasons why the US central government is powerful, and the State governments, while powerful within their borders, have no power internationally. It is also one of the reasons that we don't have secessionist movements popping up like dandelions in April in this country. Do you think the States like not being able to secede?

[Knoss]

Look at Saskatchewan, we had not a surplus since the CCF came to power, but then the PC's come to power and first off, reorganise our debt so that it is apperent then looked for solutions. The biggest thing was lowering resoouce revenue and corperate tax in favour of consumption taxes, aslo selling off crown corperations to reduce losses. Two reasons Saskatchewan has a surplus are oil, which came inot being after Devine, and PST, wich the PC's were defeated over but the NDP introduced (breaking a major campagin promise).

1. I thought Devine was defeated over corruption and incompetence; and
   
2. I thought that the sealing industry saved Saskatchewan fiscally
   

Are there river seals in the north? lol

Corrpution charges arrose after the PC's were out of office.

[NovaScotian]

I hate statistical obfusication.

1. Atlantic Canada is the smallest population region in Canada with the smallest economy. Ergo, the gross amount of subsidies in Atlantic Canada is going to appear relatively small when compared with Quebec for example. As a percentage of GDP, subsidies in Atlantic Canada are among the highest in Canada and that's the real point.

You clearly did not read the quote.

"Relative to GDP, total business subsidies in Atlantic Canada have remained close to the national average throughout the last 15 years."

2. Subsidies to private interests are highest in Quebec, then the Atlantic provinces. And which provinces have the strongest system of political patronage (i.e. corruption)? And which provinces are at the top of the list for receiving equalisation payments eh? They are one and the same.

I found this graph on a blog referring to the study.

Business Subsidies

All Levels of Government

Annual Average, $millions

http://www.moncton.localintheknow.com/blog/apec.gif

You can see that Nova Scotia for example has much lower subsidies then Saskatchewan and Manitoba with roughly the same population. In fact, total subsidies in the Atlantic region hardly equal those of Manitoba. Quebec with 3X the population of the Atlantic, received 8X more business subsidies.

You can also see the subsidies to Alberta can also spike well over the national average. I am unsure what caused that spike but it could partially be related to agriculture. Ontario with 5X the population of the Atlantic received 4X the level of subsidization. Ontario business subsidies ~ $220 per capita, Atlantic region ~ $275. So they are not too far off.

I really do not know what your are trying to imply, that Atlantic governments are corrupt? That is quite the statement. I can think of instances of the past were patronage was a problem, but it is hardly an ongoing problem.

[NovaScotian]

Will you pay my mortgage for me? You can be my friend.

Many of the states whose debts were being "assumed" did not consider it the least bit friendly. It is one of the main reasons why the US central government is powerful, and the State governments, while powerful within their borders, have no power internationally. It is also one of the reasons that we don't have secessionist movements popping up like dandelions in April in this country. Do you think the States like not being able to secede?

What about that rebellious state: Vermont

Vermont

Free Vermont!

[Knoss]

You can also see the subsidies to Alberta can also spike well over the national average. I am unsure what caused that spike but it could partially be related to agriculture. Ontario with 5X the population of the Atlantic received 4X the level of subsidization. Ontario business subsidies ~ $220 per capita, Atlantic region ~ $275. So they are not too far off.

If the spike occurred between 2003 and 2005 it is due to beef subsidisation programs resulting from BSE border closures, ironically beef is under CAIS so any at hawk subsidisation offset stabilisation payments.

[NovaScotian]

If the spike occurred between 2003 and 2005 it is due to beef subsidisation programs resulting from BSE border closures, ironically beef is under CAIS so any at hawk subsidisation offset stabilisation payments.

I never thought of that, but the spike occurs in 2001. Wasn't Alberta in the grips of a big drought then?

[Michael Bluth]

I never thought of that, but the spike occurs in 2001. Wasn't Alberta in the grips of a big drought then?

I believe it was the drought. But I think the fact that the subsidy is related to a serious act of nature shows how weak the comparison is.

The subsidies to the Atlantic provinces are ongoing in nature and have been recurring for decades.

[NovaScotian]

I never thought of that, but the spike occurs in 2001. Wasn't Alberta in the grips of a big drought then?

I believe it was the drought. But I think the fact that the subsidy is related to a serious act of nature shows how weak the comparison is.

The subsidies to the Atlantic provinces are ongoing in nature and have been recurring for decades.

And subsidies to business are ongoing in every province and in greater magnitude per capita. Even during the Alberta's using the earlier period 1998-2000 subsidies to business are about equal per capita to those in the Atlantic.

[Michael Bluth]

And subsidies to business are ongoing in every province and in greater magnitude per capita. Even during the Alberta's using the earlier period 1998-2000 subsidies to business are about equal per capita to those in the Atlantic.

Don't think so. Anything more than a sketchy graphy with your own interpretation to support that?

[NovaScotian]

And subsidies to business are ongoing in every province and in greater magnitude per capita. Even during the Alberta's using the earlier period 1998-2000 subsidies to business are about equal per capita to those in the Atlantic.

Don't think so. Anything more than a sketchy graphy with your own interpretation to support that?

Do you have any proof that business subsidies are high here? You keep saying they are, but have offered no evidence.

Anyway more

"Aha, you're thinking: Here comes the justification for those massive subsidies that are sucking money out of the rest of Canada to keep Atlantic Canadians in seasonal work and on pogey. But wait; APEC also reports that provincial and regional subsidies to business are lower in New Brunswick and Newfoundland and Labrador than in any other province in Canada, with Nova Scotia not far behind. And regional spending by such federal departments as the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency (ACOA) is not out of line with regional subsidies in other parts of the country: farm subsidies in the West and industry and technology subsidies which tend to favour Ontario and Quebec. "

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MK...26/ai_111616455

I will have to find that article and scan it.

[Michael Bluth]

Do you have any proof that business subsidies are high here? You keep saying they are, but have offered no evidence.

The Atlantic provinces don't receive money from the equalization program?

Why split hairs with "business" subsidies?

[Knoss]

If the spike occurred between 2003 and 2005 it is due to beef subsidisation programs resulting from BSE border closures, ironically beef is under CAIS so any at hawk subsidisation offset stabilisation payments.

I never thought of that, but the spike occurs in 2001. Wasn't Alberta in the grips of a big drought then?

Oh yeah the drought. Saskatchewan hay growers made a lot of money that year.

[jbg]

What about that rebellious state: Vermont Vermont

Free Vermont!

Vermont actually was an independent Republic from roughly 1783 through 1791.

[NovaScotian]

Do you have any proof that business subsidies are high here? You keep saying they are, but have offered no evidence.

The Atlantic provinces don't receive money from the equalization program?

Why split hairs with "business" subsidies?

umm, because they are completely separate concepts and employed for different reasons.

Mad_Michael said, and I quote

"Interesting to note that Ontario and Alberta have the lowest corporate taxes, with economical and manageable public services and the least amount of subsidies to private business of all the provinces in Canada.

In other words, half the problem with the 'poor' Provincial governments is government incompetence in those Provinces with their noted passions for high corporate taxes and public services beyond their own means and high levels of political patronage and subsidies to private business. This fits the maritimes to a 't'."

I provided proof that Ontario has the highest corporate tax rate and then showed that business subsidies are not higher then the national average in Atlantic Canada...so is it perhaps, just perhaps, the economic problems that have plagued the region may not be all our own doing.