Red Cross: Israel's Gaza blockade breaks international law

[deb]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7150150.ece

Israel bowed to international pressure yesterday when it agreed to reopen crossing points into Gaza for everyday goods.

The decision was prompted by criticism of its bloody interception of an aid flotilla two weeks ago and condemnation of the Gaza blockade by the Red Cross.

Regardless of what side you take in the discussion, I think this is good news!

Edited June 15, 2010 by deb

[dre]

Well, Palestinian politics are far more complex and nuanced than I could ever understand. Of course I am oversimplifying greatly, but it's a necessity with such a complex issue in an online discussion forum. Still, responsibility lies with the population for the actions of its government. This applies to Gaza. Regardless of Fatah's ills an ineptitudes, Hamas is an openly hostile terrorist organization that isn't subtle about it's anti-Israeli and anti-semitic policies. Please do not pretend that Gazans do not bear large responsibility for the reaction of Israel towards this election, i.e. the blockade and the 2009 Gaza war. Hamas didn't promise one thing during its campaign and become something else after being elected - it's violent and hostile attitude was well-known to all observers, and it acted upon promises of resistance and violence. The hostilities of Hamas in recent years are not surprising to anyone, neither is the reaction of Israel. The fact that Gazans are in a tough spot doesn't absolve them of their responsibility for voting into power an organization such as Hamas. End of story.

Let's not pretend that Hamas and Gazans are two entirely separate entities, either. Hamas IS Gazan. There is a huge overlap, here. Of course not all Gazans support Hamas (I hope), but according to Jimmy Carter and many other, it was victorious is a legitimate election.

Israel always has a choice over whether or not to talk to Hamas. Although not directly talking to Hamas, indirect talks have been ongoing through third-parties, primarily Egypt. Still, what do you expect Israel to do? How can serious talks take place with a party such as Hamas? Only a person who knows nothing about Hamas could suggest that serious talks between it and Israel could likely yield anything positive.

I also never said that Gazans are all "valid targets". It seems to me that you're interpreting my position to be that Israel can legitimately attack all Gazans. This is certainly not my position nor is it Israel's position. I never said anything remotely resembling that. I have little sympathy, though, on a general level, towards the group of people in Gaza who elected an openly anti-semitic and anti-Israel organization. These people and their supporters hate me for who I am and make endless efforts to harm and murder other Jews in Israel and abroad. It's like asking a black person to feel significant compassion for a large group of underprivileged people that want to reinstate Jim Crow laws. I'm human, not Jesus. Israel fulfils a minimum level of influx of goods into Gaza, which is the softest blockade the world's ever seen from one belligerent to another - let's not forget that.

These people and their supporters hate me for who I am and make endless efforts to harm and murder other Jews in Israel and abroad.

No thats a load of shit that even a 5 yearold could see through. Lots of people that voted for Hamas didnt do it because they hated Jews. They did it because they couldnt stand the PLO anymore, and Hamas was the only alternative. Which makes you wonder why we pushed for elections there... knowing full well the only choices were the guys in power at the time, and Hamas. Not too fucking bright in retrospect

Anyhow... You drank the coolaid - bought one side of the story hook line and sinker - and now you see anti-semetism everywhere you look. Youre paranoid. And of course hardliners like you on the OTHER side are equally paranoid and deluded. They think Jews that vote for the Israeli governments that carry on the occupation, are all racist against Arabs and Muslims... Thats ALSO horse-shit.

It's like asking a black person to feel significant compassion for a large group of underprivileged people that want to reinstate Jim Crow laws.

ROFLMAO...

Edited June 15, 2010 by dre

[Bob]

No thats a load of shit that even a 5 yearold could see through. Lots of people that voted for Hamas didnt do it because they hated Jews. They did it because they couldnt stand the PLO anymore, and Hamas was the only alternative. Which makes you wonder why we pushed for elections there... knowing full well the only choices were the guys in power at the time, and Hamas. Not too fucking bright in retrospect

Anyhow... You drank the coolaid - bought one side of the story hook line and sinker - and now you see anti-semetism everywhere you look. Youre paranoid. And of course hardliners like you on the OTHER side are equally paranoid and deluded. They think Jews that vote for the Israeli governments that carry on the occupation, are all racist against Arabs and Muslims... Thats ALSO horse-shit.

ROFLMAO...

Clearly you're very ignorant about the pervasiveness of anti-semitism among Palestinians, and among the broader Arab and Muslim populations. Pretending it isn't there won't make it go away, however.

[bloodyminded]

Well, Palestinian politics are far more complex and nuanced than I could ever understand. Of course I am oversimplifying greatly, but it's a necessity with such a complex issue in an online discussion forum. Still, responsibility lies with the population for the actions of its government. This applies to Gaza. Regardless of Fatah's ills an ineptitudes, Hamas is an openly hostile terrorist organization that isn't subtle about it's anti-Israeli and anti-semitic policies.

And as we heard for many years, Fatah was "an openly hostile terrorist organization that isn't subtle about its anti-Israeli and anti-semitic politics."

Since you claim to have studied the conflkcit, you are 100% aware of this fact.

In other words, the Palestinians' real crime was in voting...at all.

Edited June 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Oleg Bach]

If Israel had done it's common human duty and provided proper and caring social services to Palistine - then Hamas would never have become the offical welfare department.

[dre]

Clearly you're very ignorant about the pervasiveness of anti-semitism among Palestinians, and among the broader Arab and Muslim populations. Pretending it isn't there won't make it go away, however.

Not a huge fan of reading eh?

I didnt say it "wasnt there". I pointed out the obvious fallacy in your blanket generalization that all palestinians who voted Gaza did so out of hate for jews, which is blatantly false, and pure speculation/assumption.

[Bob]

And as we heard for many years, Fatah was "an openly hostile terrorist organization that isn't subtle about its anti-Israeli and anti-semitic politics."

Since you claim to have studied the conflkcit, you are 100% aware of this fact.

In other words, the Palestinians' real crime was in voting...at all.

Their crime is rejecting Israel and Jewish self-determination.

[Bob]

Not a huge fan of reading eh?

I didnt say it "wasnt there". I pointed out the obvious fallacy in your blanket generalization that all palestinians who voted Gaza did so out of hate for jews, which is blatantly false, and pure speculation/assumption.

I never made that generalization, but the actions of Arabs towards Jews since the late nineteenth century (as well as persecution of Jews in the Ottoman empire prior to this time) speaks for itself. Jews have been targets for Islamic terrorism for many decades, now - the widespread hatred of Jews among Arabs and Muslims worldwide is no secret.

[bloodyminded]

Their crime is rejecting Israel and Jewish self-determination.

You ignore the context of my quote...only to repeat yourself, word for word. (Are they even yours, or did you plagiarize them from David horowitz or some other such lying, hypocritical, intellectual luminary?)

Again: since we have long, long been informed that Fatah is nothing more than terrorists and anti-semites...whom, exactly, do you propose that the Palestinians should have voted for?

[Bob]

You ignore the context of my quote...only to repeat yourself, word for word. (Are they even yours, or did you plagiarize them from David horowitz or some other such lying, hypocritical, intellectual luminary?)

Again: since we have long, long been informed that Fatah is nothing more than terrorists and anti-semites...whom, exactly, do you propose that the Palestinians should have voted for?

They need to form a new political party that recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. We need to see open, vocal, widespread support of this position. Until then, you can't have meaningful peace.

Lastly, to suggest that my acknowledgement of rampant anti-semitism in the Palestinian world and broader Muslim and Arab world is "lying" or "racist" ends this discussion. If you don't want to see the world the way it is, that's your problem. Those of us who know that anti-semitism is rampant among Israel's detractors (thousands of Jews murdered around the world from Islamic terrorism over past decades, as well as many more thousands of non-Jews murdered by Islamic terrorism with explicit anti-semitic motivations) don't need your acknowledgement of the truth. I don't know how many Jews have to be murdered simply for being Jews by Islamic terrorists before you acknowledge that anti-semitism is widespread among Arabs and Muslims. How many attacks must Israel defend itself from before you recognize its neighbours hostility to its very existence as a Jewish state?

[naomiglover]

Jews have been targets for Islamic terrorism for many decades, now - the widespread hatred of Jews among Arabs and Muslims worldwide is no secret.

A few Muslim groups have been using terrorism against Israel. It cannot be justified, far from it. However they see and the whole world sees these acts of terrorism as a respond to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, which many call state terrorism.

It's not honest to sit there and pretend that a major reason why Israel is viewed so poorly in the Muslim world is not because of how they have treated the Palestinians for many decades. The negative view of Israelis is increasing rapidly in other parts of the world as well.

Just in a little over a year, the Muslim world and the whole world have seen a devastating attack on the Gazan people that left close to 1000 civilians dead, with over 300 of them children (confirmed by Red Cross), have brought in a blockade that brings nothing but a collective punishment and does not stop the flow of weapons to Hamas and more recently, a failed mission in international waters. The first two have already been confirmed as violating international law.

Tell me if Israel's approach of aggression and military might have resulted in a favourable view of it by the international community and if it has improved security? The obvious answer is no. It has actually done the opposite.

Instead of your blanket support for Israel, you may want to let go of your pride and admit to mistakes on all sides and condemn anyone who breaks the law. Not just the people on the other team.

[Bob]

A few Muslim groups have been using terrorism against Israel. It cannot be justified, far from it. However they see and the whole world sees these acts of terrorism as a respond to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, which many call state terrorism.

It's not honest to sit there and pretend that a major reason why Israel is viewed so poorly in the Muslim world is not because of how they have treated the Palestinians for many decades. The negative view of Israelis is increasing rapidly in other parts of the world as well.

Just in a little over a year, the Muslim world and the whole world have seen a devastating attack on the Gazan people that left close to 1000 civilians dead, with over 300 of them children (confirmed by Red Cross), have brought in a blockade that brings nothing but a collective punishment and does not stop the flow of weapons to Hamas and more recently, a failed mission in international waters. The first two have already been confirmed as violating international law.

Tell me if Israel's approach of aggression and military might have resulted in a favourable view of it by the international community and if it has improved security? The obvious answer is no. It has actually done the opposite.

Instead of your blanket support for Israel, you may want to let go of your pride and admit to mistakes on all sides and condemn anyone who breaks the law. Not just the people on the other team.

Hostilities against Jews began long before there was ever even the concept of a "Palestinian" national identity. There was no occupation prior to 1967, yet thousands of Jews had been murdered by Arabs and Muslims prior to 1967, indeed... prior even to 1948. Let's not pretend that the conflict began in 1967, because it didn't. The political rhetoric and justification for the murder of Jews has evolved over time, however, with the justifications now being "occupation".

You yourself justify these murders, as in one breath you reject a "few" Islamic terrorist groups (more like a few hundred), and in the next breath you preach their own justifications - occupation. Your own duplicity on the murder of Jews illustrated by this and many other of your statements (and non-statements) is shocking.

You cry about how Palestinians have been treated for decades, what about how Jews have been treated by Arabs and Muslims for a century (and even beyond that, as second-class citizens (dhimmis) in the Ottoman Empire)? How about Jews being abused across the Arab world even more intensely after 1948 and fleeing to Israel and other parts of the world? Does that ethnic cleansing show up on your radar? Should they claim a right of return? How about Europe's Jews? Are these factors not relevant context to the story?

What about the two major wars (and countless minor violent flare-ups) prior to '67? What about the rejection of the partition plan of '47 from all Arabs (before there was much of a meaning behind the "Palestinian" people)? Why is your starting point of the conflict the results of '67 and the subsequent occupation? You don't think the Jewish-Arab conflict began many decades before '67?

Considering that Arab and Muslim hostility towards Jews began long before '67, it's simply a lie to suggest that hostilities towards Israel result from military occupation - they've been murdering us long before any occupation took place, and long before there was such a thing as "Palestinians". The fundamental change that needs to occur is Arab and Muslim acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state - Jewish self-determination.

Better unpopular than dead. The world has NEVER, EVER looked favourably upon the Jewish people, and historic anti-semitism has now evolved to become anti-Israelism. Being criticized by countries like Russia and Poland doesn't bother me (countries with no record of human rights, let alone positive treatment of Jews). Israel gets the fundamental support it needs from truly free countries with credibility on the issue of human rights - the USA (world leader in human rights, by far), Canada, the UK, and others. Iranian, Chinese, and Libyan support isn't at the top of Israel's must-haves. And at the end of the day, self-preservation trumps popularity. We're not going to let ourselves be destroyed to appease those who hate us.

I'm very willing to admit mistakes by Israel, but apologizing for self-preservation isn't something I'm about to do anytime soon.

[bloodyminded]

Israel gets the fundamental support it needs from truly free countries with credibility on the issue of human rights - the USA (world leader in human rights, by far), Canada, the UK, and others.

You must mean domestically, in which case you're correct.

Because in the international sphere, the precise countries you mentioned were all in the business of intentionally and materially supporting the genocide of the East Timorese people. state terrorism on a catastrophic scale. Iran and Libya have never accomplished such feats of horror (China is another matter, true).

The US armed, trained and funded a terrorist organization in Nicaragua that was worse than Hamas...much worse, actually. Far, far worse than the enemy the US was fighting.

I should think this would bother you...or is it only the "right" terrorists that offend?

Edited June 15, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Guest American Woman]

...there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza due to the blockade and that the blockade is a war crime.

Yes, the "humanitarian crisis" that's all Israel's fault. How could we forget?

The crisis caused by the blockade that takes place along with Egypt's cooperation.

The blockade that's been protested by Hamas, up until now, in the form of not allowing the UN to deliver the humanitarian aid from the flotilla to Gaza.

The blockade that results in rockets being fired into Israel whenever talk turns to Israel lifting the blockade.

The blockade that is making millions for the tunnel operators, who don't want the blockade to end, and are said to be firing rockets into Israel whenever there's talk of lifting the blockade so it doesn't happen. And of course these tunnels are built with concrete and reinforced with steel beams. Evidently building materials are available for some things in Gaza.

And life in Gaza is becoming increasingly subjected to extremist Islam/radical groups, which doesn't account for the misery at all.

It's all Israel's fault, and there's no reason at all for Israel not to lift the blockade, or to be concerned about the cargo entering Gaza.

[Borg]

That message is yet another indication of growing international concern over conditions in Gaza - just last week US President Barack Obama called the situation there unsustainable.

BBC Link

Barry the prez is an admitted islamic and likely not eligible to be prez of the US - and he will be tossed next election - in fact people are now gleefully anticipating it - so his opinion is not worth a fart in a haeavy wind

Blah, blah, blah.......

Tell the Arabs to the south of Gaza to open the border - after all the Egyptians share one with Gaza.

Your blatant racial and religious discrimination and your inability to castigate an Arab that lives to the south show us the true rabid dog you are.

Hell, Egypt is even worse than Israel in many regards - go there some time and see for yourself.

You do provide a certain amount of entertainment though - often wonder if you are an import with a cause - somehow I suspect this to be the case. Mind you that would most likely mean you are a male as it is unlikely you would be allowed to post like this if you were female.

Borg

[bloodyminded]

Barry the prez is an admitted islamic and likely not eligible to be prez of the US -

Wheeeee! Paranoid-fantasy-land! It's ugly there, but always interesting.

[naomiglover]

Barry the prez is an admitted islamic and likely not eligible to be prez of the US

Excellent post Mr. Limbaugh.

[Bonam]

I didnt say it "wasnt there". I pointed out the obvious fallacy in your blanket generalization that all palestinians who voted Gaza did so out of hate for jews, which is blatantly false, and pure speculation/assumption.

It doesn't matter why they voted for Hamas: because they hate Isreal, because they were tired of Fatah, because that's how their family member told them to vote, or because of any other reason or combination of reasons. The FACT is that they knowingly voted for a terrorist organization. Now, they are living with the consequences of being ruled over by terrorists.

[naomiglover]

Yes, the "humanitarian crisis" that's all Israel's fault. How could we forget? The crisis caused by the blockade that takes place along with Egypt's cooperation.

You cry that no one reads your posts even after your posts are quoted and answered directly. Then you have the nerve to make something up. Who said that it's all Israel's fault? Personally, I even made a thread about Egypt and other groups who are to blame for the mess in Gaza.

Think before you type.

The blockade that's been protested by Hamas, up until now, in the form of not allowing the UN to deliver the humanitarian aid from the flotilla to Gaza.

You either don't inform yourself about what you comment on, or you conveniently omit information, which would make you a dishonest person. Information like:

Hamas officials on Wednesday refused to allow into the Gaza Strip 21 truckloads of humanitarian aid that had been offloaded from the Gaza-bound flotilla ships currently docked at Ashdod Port, until “all” of those detained in Monday’s naval raid were released. link

The blockade that results in rockets being fired into Israel whenever talk turns to Israel lifting the blockade.

Cite some proof of this. You can't afford to make comments and for everyone to take your word for it. You've damaged credibility too much already. A perfect example is right above.

The blockade that is making millions for the tunnel operators, who don't want the blockade to end, and are said to be firing rockets into Israel whenever there's talk of lifting the blockade so it doesn't happen. And of course these tunnels are built with concrete and reinforced with steel beams. Evidently building materials are available for some things in Gaza.

Yes, thank you for making the point that the blockade is not working. Smugglers are building tunnels to bring in goods which probably include weapons.

[WIP]

I have been trying to restrict my posts on Israel and Mid-East topics to one or two threads and have already commented on the blockade elsewhere, since there are just too many and entire new threads do not need to be created for every single topic. Many forums would close unneeded new threads or merge them together. Same thing should happen with all of the spam "climate skeptic" threads here.

But, now that I'm here, I was looking for a post that goes into a little more detail on why Egypt has participated in the Gaza Blockade and didn't find it. It needs to be pointed out that after Israel, Egypt is the 2nd largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, so that gives the U.S. a lot of clout with the Egyptian dictator. But, more importantly, the Muslim Brotherhood that wants to overthrow the Mubarak Government has close ties with Hamas -- so Egypt has its own reasons for trying to starve out Gaza....and they certainly don't add any legitimacy to the Israeli policy.

[Guest American Woman]

If you want me to respond to your replies, make them worth replying to, because this one doesn't cut it. In the meantime, I'll continue to pick and choose which of your posts I comment on.

And in that light, once again, the living conditions in Gaza are not "Israel's fault," as you have claimed.

Now, if you can refute anything I've said, and can actually engage in an intelligent discussion, I'll consider actually responding to your post.

In the meantime, I supplied my link stating that Hamas has, up until now, refused to let the UN deliver the aid from the flotilla into Gaza in protest of the blockade. You don't like it, take it up with them. In the meantime, my sources are just as accurate as yours.

As for needing proof that tunnel operators are firing rockets into Israel to keep the blockade going, guess you don't know as much about the situation as you constantly claim you do.

Have a great day. And be sure to start another anti-Israel thread. I'm sure there's some little aspect of some incident that you haven't started a thread on yet.

Edited June 15, 2010 by American Woman

[naomiglover]

If you want me to respond to your replies, make them worth replying to, because this one doesn't cut it. In the meantime, I'll continue to pick and choose which of your posts I comment on.

You continue to pick and choose. It's your choice to do that.

[Guest American Woman]

You continue to pick and choose. It's your choice to do that.

Yes it is, because fact is, responding to a few of your posts covers what you feel the need to repeat over and over again in a bajillion posts in the numerous anti-Israel threads you've started. To not pick and choose is to waste one's entire day.

[naomiglover]

Yes it is, because fact is, responding to a few of your posts covers what you feel the need to repeat over and over again in a bajillion posts in the numerous anti-Israel threads you've started. To not pick and choose is to waste one's entire day.

I pointed out the misinformation in your previous post and this is the result: "I pick and choose which of your posts I comment on".

Your damaged credibility is not necessarily because me or anyone else is smarter than you. It's mostly because people use facts to back up their points while you 'pick and choose' when you are faced with these facts.

Maybe instead of your long-winded opinion pieces and overcompensating by using emoticons, why not try citing real information and respond to facts.

Edited June 15, 2010 by naomiglover

[Guest American Woman]

I pointed out the misinformation in your previous post and this is the result: "I pick and choose which of your posts I comment on".

Your damaged credibility is not necessarily because I'm smarter than you. It's mostly because I use facts to back up my points while you 'pick and choose' when you are faced with these facts.

Maybe instead of your long-winded opinion pieces and overcompensating by using emoticons, why not try citing real information and respond to facts.

:lol:

Yeah, my "misinformation:"

Up to now, the Hamas rulers of Gaza have refused to accept the aid as a protest against Israel's three-year blockade of the territory. link

Now yap some more about my "damaged credibility" and how "smart" you are. I always appreciate comedy.