Harper Accuses Liberals of

[Argus]

Let's see how it's played out, we don't know if it's incorrect.A Liberal politician saying it's incorrect just doesn't mean much to most Canadians.We've been given the gears from you guys for years.

And now Harper is doing it himself. It didn't take rocket science to show that two Liberal MPs didn't promote their spouses to the Immigration Board.

I don't think that's the point. People get on the immigration board by being active members of the Liberal party. It's all very incestuous. All the board members, chairmen, judges and presidents of whatever federal institution, be it immigration, ports canada, the federal court, or whatever - all come from that narrow band of active Liberals who go to the meetings, lay down their money to attend the fund raisers, glad-hand at the right parties, and suck up to the right people within the party.

I expect that to be less outrageous under Harper, but only a child would expect it to disappear entirely.

[jdobbin]

Oh, that's promising. Chretien was a disaster as PM. It was under his watch that health care collapsed even while he was boasting about it being a sacred trust.

Electorally, he was successful and crushed any and all Opposition attempts to dent his popularity.

And healthcare had a lot of help in getting to where it is. The provinces has a lot to do with what happened by cutting nurses, doctors and investing in infrastructure. A lot of that was done by Conservative governments.

[jdobbin]

I don't think that's the point. People get on the immigration board by being active members of the Liberal party. It's all very incestuous. All the board members, chairmen, judges and presidents of whatever federal institution, be it immigration, ports canada, the federal court, or whatever - all come from that narrow band of active Liberals who go to the meetings, lay down their money to attend the fund raisers, glad-hand at the right parties, and suck up to the right people within the party.

I expect that to be less outrageous under Harper, but only a child would expect it to disappear entirely.

I think the point Harper made was very clear. He said the two Montreal MPs were directly responsible for getting their spouses on the Board.

Your expectations on Harper being better are laughable. So far the people he has appointed have as much connection to the Tory party as he accuses the Liberals of.

[Argus]

Oh, that's promising. Chretien was a disaster as PM. It was under his watch that health care collapsed even while he was boasting about it being a sacred trust.

Electorally, he was successful and crushed any and all Opposition attempts to dent his popularity.

The only reason he was successful was because the conservatives were divided between two parties. As soon as that ended, the Liberals were gone.

And healthcare had a lot of help in getting to where it is. The provinces has a lot to do with what happened by cutting nurses, doctors and investing in infrastructure. A lot of that was done by Conservative governments.

The provinces were responding to huge cuts in transfer payments from the federal government.

[madmax]

And healthcare had a lot of help in getting to where it is. The provinces has a lot to do with what happened by cutting nurses, doctors and investing in infrastructure. A lot of that was done by Conservative governments.

You can't have it both ways. The Federal Liberals, heavily pressured by the Reform Party, Canadian Alliance and then the Conservative party, put their focus on deficit reduction, then when running surpluses prioritized tax cuts and debt reduction all the while claiming to be the party of public health care while choking the funding to the Provinces. Some Provinces such as Ontarios Mike Harris, couldn't have been happier to start dismantling the system, calling Doctors, Nurses overpaid, and creating PrivatePublic hospitals that are costing an arm and a leg to run. But given any alternatives, with no federal funding keeping up to the costs of the Provincial expenditures, what choice would any government have?

The Federal Liberals ignored the Health Care System, denied it the funding required, while holding the Provinces to the CHA for peanuts.

Privatizing isn't the way to go, it is clearly not as efficient as the Public System, but to merely blame the Conservatives for wanting to implement their market based ideology on the Health System, vs take responsibility for Liberal Cutbacks is two faced at best.

[jdobbin]

You can't have it both ways. The Federal Liberals, heavily pressured by the Reform Party, Canadian Alliance and then the Conservative party, put their focus on deficit reduction, then when running surpluses prioritized tax cuts and debt reduction all the while claiming to be the party of public health care while choking the funding to the Provinces. Some Provinces such as Ontarios Mike Harris, couldn't have been happier to start dismantling the system, calling Doctors, Nurses overpaid, and creating PrivatePublic hospitals that are costing an arm and a leg to run. But given any alternatives, with no federal funding keeping up to the costs of the Provincial expenditures, what choice would any government have?

The Federal Liberals ignored the Health Care System, denied it the funding required, while holding the Provinces to the CHA for peanuts.

Privatizing isn't the way to go, it is clearly not as efficient as the Public System, but to merely blame the Conservatives for wanting to implement their market based ideology on the Health System, vs take responsibility for Liberal Cutbacks is two faced at best.

I never said that Liberals were not responsible for what happened for the healthcare system but I also know that the provinces had their role in it as well.

You might focus on Ontario but my experience of cuts is the NDP one in Manitoba. Everyone and I mean everyone was focused on the deficit and that includes the NDP.

[jdobbin]

The only reason he was successful was because the conservatives were divided between two parties. As soon as that ended, the Liberals were gone.

The provinces were responding to huge cuts in transfer payments from the federal government.

After 13 years, Tory unification barely squeaked out a minority. It certainly hasn't destroyed the Liberals nor has it gotten people talking about about them being replaced by the NDP.

The provinces were responding to their own deficits. As someone has said, you can't complain about deficits and then complain about cuts to spending.

[Argus]

You can't have it both ways. The Federal Liberals, heavily pressured by the Reform Party, Canadian Alliance and then the Conservative party, put their focus on deficit reduction,

Can you name me a time when the federal Liberals were at ANY real risk from the divided opposition? I think the Liberals were constantly maneuvering into position to block the wind from opposition sails, but I didn't hear a lot of tears shed from Liberals when they were slashing payments for health care, education and welfare.

Some Provinces such as Ontarios Mike Harris, couldn't have been happier to start dismantling the system,

Harris' government increased funding to health care, despite cuts from the federal Liberals, and this adversely affected other areas of government. mind you, he should not have cut taxes himself, but that was his philosophy.

And doctors and nurses ARE overpaid, as is everyone else in the health care sector. One of the reasons health care is more accessible in Europe is that graduating doctors are not immediately provided with a chauffeur driven limo to get around in. They are professionals, like any others, and paid accordingly. The US system has totally F'd up ours. We have to overpay our doctors and nurses or they'll all drain away to the south.

The Federal Liberals ignored the Health Care System, denied it the funding required, while holding the Provinces to the CHA for peanuts.

They didn't always ignore health care. They were great admirers and supporters in the run-up to every election and during every election campaign they were the great defenders of health care.

Privatizing isn't the way to go, it is clearly not as efficient as the Public System, but to merely blame the Conservatives for wanting to implement their market based ideology on the Health System, vs take responsibility for Liberal Cutbacks is two faced at best.

I would agree that privatization as it works in the US is not the way to go. But the Europeans do have a mixture of public and private health care which appears to work a whole lot better than hours. Granted, their doctors and nurses don't get paid as well as ours, but there are a lot of efficiencies and cost-savings in their systems we ought to examine.

[Canuck E Stan]

Everyone and I mean everyone was focused on the deficit....

At the Federal level, Paul "the deficit killer" Martin was reducing the deficit and acting like the CEO of Canada proudly announcing more "profits" each year for the government.

And each year his profits were better than the year before.

What a guy,Liberals were so proud of the "deficit killer" making so much money for the government.

Can't wait for Harper to get into the Liberal "foundations" that the auditor is not allowed to look at.

[jdobbin]

At the Federal level, Paul "the deficit killer" Martin was reducing the deficit and acting like the CEO of Canada proudly announcing more "profits" each year for the government.

And each year his profits were better than the year before.

What a guy,Liberals were so proud of the "deficit killer" making so much money for the government.

Can't wait for Harper to get into the Liberal "foundations" that the auditor is not allowed to look at.

At the provincial level as well. You deny that the provinces weren't focused on putting down the deficit?

I don't understand you right wingers. You complained about the deficit yet did nothing about it in federal government. Now you complain about the cuts.

And given that Harper is running just as large surpluses, you have to ask how they could get it so wrong as well.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Harper is going to make some deep tax cuts. Odds are income splitting but watch for the real cuts in the form of corporate welfare.

There are bigger fish to fry, but we won't see that in the budget. Expect the Tory election platform to be rolled out with the budget. Targets, big business through a green initiative, the apathetic voter through calculated tax relief.

[Saturn]

You can't have it both ways. The Federal Liberals, heavily pressured by the Reform Party, Canadian Alliance and then the Conservative party, put their focus on deficit reduction, then when running surpluses prioritized tax cuts and debt reduction all the while claiming to be the party of public health care while choking the funding to the Provinces. Some Provinces such as Ontarios Mike Harris, couldn't have been happier to start dismantling the system, calling Doctors, Nurses overpaid, and creating PrivatePublic hospitals that are costing an arm and a leg to run. But given any alternatives, with no federal funding keeping up to the costs of the Provincial expenditures, what choice would any government have?

Mike Harris had plenty of choice. Instead of cutting provincial taxes 25%, he could have cut them by "only" 15% and made up the federal shortfall. But it was his intention to dismantle the public health-care system, as well as public utilities, public education, etc. If the feds had not cut their transfers to the province, he would have cut provincial taxes by 35% and done exactly what he did. The same was done by Campbell in BC. Did the NDP in Manitoba not do something along those lines? Have they not cut taxes too? Everything is about cutting taxes these days. Canadians are willing to sell their own asses and their children for a $100 tax cut.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Not here in Tory Alberta! We cut taxes alright, but not to the individual you understand. We have a history of corporate welfare here. The oil industry is everything out here and anything that has an adverse impact on corporate profit is avoided like it was the plague.

We no longer have a provincial debt, but on the other hand our health care system is in tatters and the school system is under extreme pressure as well. Much of this is the result of the current boom, but the root of the problem existed long before that. Once again industry is calling the ball.

[Saturn]

At the Federal level, Paul "the deficit killer" Martin was reducing the deficit and acting like the CEO of Canada proudly announcing more "profits" each year for the government.

And each year his profits were better than the year before.

What a guy,Liberals were so proud of the "deficit killer" making so much money for the government.

His profits were better than the year before and most of it, $110 billion to be exact, went to pay Mulroney's enormous mortgage. Harper has a huge profit this year too, but he's just going to spend it on toys, beer and popcorn. The mortgage will have to wait - we are rich enough to keep paying the interest in perpetuity. Better yet, he is going to set us up for another similarly enormous mortgage. Because that's what the Conservative "fiscally responsible" way of handling finances comes down to - CUT TAXES AND BORROW!

[madmax]

Can you name me a time when the federal Liberals were at ANY real risk from the divided opposition?

The Federal Liberals were not at risk because of little opposition from anywhere.

I think the Liberals were constantly maneuvering into position to block the wind from opposition sails, but I didn't hear a lot of tears shed from Liberals when they were slashing payments for health care, education and welfare.

I concur.

Harris' government increased funding to health care, despite cuts from the federal Liberals, and this adversely affected other areas of government. mind you, he should not have cut taxes himself, but that was his philosophy.

I believe that is accurate as well.

And doctors and nurses ARE overpaid, as is everyone else in the health care sector. The US system has totally F'd up ours. We have to overpay our doctors and nurses or they'll all drain away to the south.

Well, that was the problem, many nurses couldn't get full time work or even get work, and the negative opinions of their worth, forced their hand to look south. And then they found the city of gold. I knew of nurses whom had great difficulty finding work in Ontario during this era, couldn't manage to make ends meet, and were borderline for welfare. Then they went south, and discovered that they could make alot of money and that Canadian Nurses were in great demand in Southern States were you could go from Job to job. So, while you may consider that they are overpaid, the "market" to the south of us suggests different.

They didn't always ignore health care. They were great admirers and supporters in the run-up to every election and during every election campaign they were the great defenders of health care.

Touche.

You would have thought they were Tommy Douglas

I would agree that privatization as it works in the US is not the way to go. But the Europeans do have a mixture of public and private health care which appears to work a whole lot better than hours. Granted, their doctors and nurses don't get paid as well as ours, but there are a lot of efficiencies and cost-savings in their systems we ought to examine.

I fully understand this, and believe these issues have been covered in Health Care threads.

Now, back to the topic??? Harper Accuses Liberals.....