Riverwind Posted April 24, 2006 Report Posted April 24, 2006 Yet another reason why a company should not be providing this benefit. The company should just provide employment income and the worker can buy life insurance if they so choose.In most cases obtaining disability or dental insurance as an individual is prohibitively expensive or simply impossible because insurance companies assume that any individual choosing to pay for individual insurance must be a high risk client. Mandatory group plans allow people to avoid this automatic labelling on the part of insurance companies. For that reason, it makes sense for companies to provide these kinds of insurance as part of a mandatory group benefit plan.Furthermore, I don't see why there is a problem with the concept of company pension plans -> you can look at them as a special type of mutual fund which people can choose to invest their money in. The only problem I see with company pension plans is the guarantee that must be provided by the company. This is dumb. Workers should negotiate how much the company contributes as part of their contract but once the company has made those contributions the employees should assume all investment risk associated with the plan. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
Renegade Posted April 24, 2006 Report Posted April 24, 2006 In most cases obtaining disability or dental insurance as an individual is prohibitively expensive or simply impossible because insurance companies assume that any individual choosing to pay for individual insurance must be a high risk client. Mandatory group plans allow people to avoid this automatic labelling on the part of insurance companies. For that reason, it makes sense for companies to provide these kinds of insurance as part of a mandatory group benefit plan. I understand, and it makes sense. In most cases the contribution for insurance is fairly minimal, so I can live with this loss of freedom. Furthermore, I don't see why there is a problem with the concept of company pension plans -> you can look at them as a special type of mutual fund which people can choose to invest their money in. The only problem I see with company pension plans is the guarantee that must be provided by the company. This is dumb. Workers should negotiate how much the company contributes as part of their contract but once the company has made those contributions the employees should assume all investment risk associated with the plan. Riverwind, you have said that people can "choose to invest their money", but really the DB pension plan I have an issue with involves no choice by people. They make no choice on if they participate in the plan, and they certainly don't get to choose their investmetns. I have no problem with DC plans which allow people the choice. I agree with the rest of your statement. Quote “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
Riverwind Posted April 24, 2006 Report Posted April 24, 2006 Riverwind, you have said that people can "choose to invest their money", but really the DB pension plan I have an issue with involves no choice by people.I agree that people should have to choice of opting out of company pension plans. However, I don't believe that RRSPs and DC plans are right for everyone - nor should we expect them to be. DB plans are a financial instrument that some people find attractive and there is nothing wrong them provided people understand the trade offs (i.e. your estate gets nothing if you die early) and the risks (i.e. your level of benefits depends on the pension managers achieving certain investment targets). Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
Renegade Posted April 24, 2006 Report Posted April 24, 2006 Riverwind, you have said that people can "choose to invest their money", but really the DB pension plan I have an issue with involves no choice by people.I agree that people should have to choice of opting out of company pension plans. However, I don't believe that RRSPs and DC plans are right for everyone - nor should we expect them to be. DB plans are a financial instrument that some people find attractive and there is nothing wrong them provided people understand the trade offs (i.e. your estate gets nothing if you die early) and the risks (i.e. your level of benefits depends on the pension managers achieving certain investment targets). I agree. If people had a choice and choose a DB plan, they shoudl do it understanding the limitations and lack of individual choices. Most companies who have DB plans don't also offer a DC plan or RRSP as a choice. I think that soon, except for public sector, most companies will stop offering DB plans so there won't even be that choice. Quote “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
margrace Posted April 24, 2006 Report Posted April 24, 2006 You notice the discussion on these forums, I think you are forgetting the mass of people out there who don't have a clue. A lot live from day to day with never a thought of the morrow. In our area very few people have the option of pensions. A lot of the people were beef farmers, where are they today, over night they lost everything. Right now it is much more prudent to have a bush and cut wood than to grow hay. Quote
Renegade Posted April 24, 2006 Report Posted April 24, 2006 You notice the discussion on these forums, I think you are forgetting the mass of people out there who don't have a clue. A lot live from day to day with never a thought of the morrow. Certainly I haven't forgot them, but on the other hand I'm not going to cater to them. If they have no retirement prospects due to the fact that they haven't a clue or live from day to day without a thought for tomorrow, then they are the architect of their own misfortune, and rightly deserve it. In our area very few people have the option of pensions. A lot of the people were beef farmers, where are they today, over night they lost everything. Of course they have the option for pensions. Its called an RRSP and is open to everyone. As for BSE, every occupation has risks. Many entrepreneurs got wiped out, sometimes more than once before they were successful. I have no idea if beef farmers have access to insurance to mitigate against such risks as BSE, but if they don't have it, I agree they should. Athletes insure themselves against injury because their financial wellbeing is at stake. Should beef farmers be any different? Edit: I found that indeed insurance is available to beef farmers :Protecting Farmers - A Hartford tradition Since 1916 If they availed themselves of this insurance why would the lose everything. If they did not avail themselves of this insurance, despite it being available, then chose to risk it, and should be prepared to accept the consequences. Quote “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” - Thomas Jefferson
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