WIP
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11 hours ago, Argus said:
So let me see if I can grasp your "logic" here. Federal Tory leader Andrew Scheer expresses his support for Trudeau. Newly elected PC Doug Ford of Ontario expresses his support of Trudeau in this. Alberta's conservative leader Jason Kennie expresses his support for Trudeau on this. But because someone on a small web bulletin board supports trump you use this to indict all conservatives as having no loyalty to Canada. Have I got that right?
better late than never I guess! Back when Trump announced steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada, Doug Trump and others were trying to blame Trudeau's negotiating skills. We should bite the bullet and hit back hard against further US sanctions. Raise the price of oil shipments south back to world market levels...same with essential resources needed for manufacturing. No point hitching our wagons to a dying empire now.
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13 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:
Because "loyal Canadians" would never post liberal / progressive propaganda, manifestos from American universities like Cal Berkely or Harvard, American books, American print media, American social media, or American local and state governments. Nope...that would never happen here from "loyal Canadians".
The difference is Canadian liberals, social democrats, socialists etc. don't define their political ideology through being American and expanding trade ties and US ownership of our economy! Canada's conservatives are in a jam now, because Trump and their rhetorical leaders are directly attacking this country, and they've gone quiet all of a sudden. Sun Media newspapers and other US lapdogs are trying to play down the problem as a "Trade Tiff." They're in a panic because they don't have a way to define being conservative without their usual US reference point.
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I haven't been paying attention to this forum for a few days cause I didn't see much worth commenting on and I wanted to wait until after the dust settled from the election of Doug Trump jr. here in Ontario and whether or not Trump would wreck the G-7 Summit...which it looks like he did!
Having a thread started by a doctrinaire conservative that reposts US conservative propaganda about this moral and intellectual failure- Donald Trump tells me that Canadian conservatives have no real loyalty to Canada. Not that we didn't know this already after getting American-style conservatism with Mulroney...setting the course for NAFTA and selling us out to the US economy...and then came Harper and his Republican advisers trying to finish the job of making Canada a vassal state of the US, but I wonder: what's in it for so called conservatives in this country? Are you or your organizations being promised some kind of jobs as local reps of our overlords south of the border? Otherwise, your genuflecting to stupid, unpredictable, morally bankrupt creeps like Trump and company makes no sense at all! And you rightwingers up here have just ridden your ideological rhetoric right into a dead end street!
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12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:
You brought up productivity, but productivity is a messy concept to quantify, because while it's mostly a good thing, it can also mean bad things. A sweat shop may be highly productive. It's like measuring a country's progress strictly through GDP. Cleaning up environmental catastrophes boosts a country's GDP, yet people aren't wishing for more oil spills like the Exon Valdez. The most important metric overall is progress. We can argue about what exactly constitutes progress, but if we don't agree on some fundamental benefits -- safe, humane work environments; clean air and water; good wages; health; longevity, equal opportunity, etc. -- then it's very difficult to talk about the benefits of certain trade policies or any other economic policies.
With regard to the Maritimes, yes, some Canadian regions receive more supports than others. There is regional disparity in Canada for a host of reasons. We try to level the playing field with transfer payments and other redistributions, not always very well. The U.S. has its neglected "other side of the tracks" in many cities and some regions. I like the safety of Canadian cities. How much is living in a palace an indicator of success if you risk getting shot going to buy milk at the corner store?
Yes, paying line workers 50 cents an hour with no benefits can really lower the cost of production! Looking at the big picture, the problem begins with using GDP as the be all and end all for trying to quantify prosperity.
First big problem is it based on standard practice of post-enlightenment materialist thought that applies no value to nature, except as raw materials for economic production! So, it shouldn't be a mystery to anyone why natural habitats are destroyed at increasing rates, and more than half of the world's known animal species are facing collapse and extinction....including the human animals who will see food production crash in a couple of decades due to destruction of topsoil, freshwater supplies etc.
The almost two century-long process of "clearing the commons"---- forcing peasants and woodland dwellers off the land by creating private ownership of land and all the resources contained therein...including underground, while those forced out by landowners and government forces had no choice other than move into already growing and overcrowded slum cities to look for work as sweatshop laborers. And this process...which started in England after the invention of steam engines has continued all around the world and now, the capitalists who search for the cheapest labor are running out of these opportunities and turning more and more to outright slavery!
With that, the increasing growth in income gaps isn't reflected in the GDP numbers which average out everyone's incomes. So, when certain CEO's are making 4000 times as much as their lowest paid employees, an increase in GDP won't tell us if the majority of workers are better or worse off!
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23 hours ago, Argus said:
Statement of fact unsupported by evidence.
I personally always know why I buy something. I don't know anyone who is any different in that regard.
Sure you do! So why do you prefer Coke to Pepsi? Why do buy Nike instead of Reebok or Adidas?
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Just now, angrypenguin said:
You're completely missing the original argument here and bringing in additional variables that bear no relevance to the topic at hand.
I said before that I don't accept compartmentalizing these issues cause they all impact each other, and how much real freedom we will have personally and as a nation.
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On 6/1/2018 at 3:43 PM, angrypenguin said:
Right from the get go, free trade has driven down the price of basically everything we buy in life. Protectionism hurts consumers, and while you can make an argument with respect to how trade impacts certain industries, from a consumer standpoint, we're almost basically always going to win from free trade.
When most consumers have to step back and explain their purchasing decisions, they have to admit that a large chunk of what they buy, they can't really explain why they bought it! And this makes sense in our consumer-driven capitalism where advertisers apply psychological manipulation to motivate potential consumers to buy on impulse/rather than need.
So, besides the environmental consequences and increased demand on resources, cheap consumer products does NOT necessarily equal a better world for all! And then we factor in costs that have increased faster than inflation...like real estate..almost everywhere. The lower your income, the greater the likelihood you are a renter rather than a homeowner, so the poor who get the benefit of the ten dollar shirts lose all those benefits in stagnant wages and rising rents!
And then we get to the stratification of income and wealth that has increased under the brave new world of free trade since the 80's everywhere.
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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:
Canada is only hurting itself by imposing tariffs in retaliation to the USA. These tariffs appear to be more of a facade than anything else, reactionary Liberal smoke.
Trudeau et al simply don't get it: Donald Trump loves retaliatory tariffs- they only help fuel his primary mission, to bring manufacturing back to America.
The Canadian economy used to be run for the benefit of Canada/not begging for better terms from the US! Once again, conservatives show they are the real traitors of this country!
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3 hours ago, eyeball said:
Effing right-wingers have been peddling this socialists are traitors shit for years, its like talking about the weather but never doing anything about it. Either put up or shut-up, borrow a page from Pinochet's handbook or something.
That's what I've been thinking too! For years, we've had rightwing radio and crap like Sun Media running their Republican playbooks, and they could have gotten away with it except for the fact that when their primary loyalties are to the US and not Canada...or the part of Canada that we should owe our allegiances to, they reveal themselves to be the real traitors...as Andrew Scheer and Stephen Harper have done in their desperate game of trying to find wiggle room around condemning US policy and trying to tell us that JT must have done something wrong...like being insufficiently obsequious to our American overlords!
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On 5/31/2018 at 12:43 PM, angrypenguin said:
Let's see if you have any knowledge about the pros of these free trade agreements. Do you have any idea how Canada benefited, and if so, I encourage you to list them, because otherwise you're just ranting about one side of the fallout of said agreement.
I am neither a liberal nor a conservative, so I see NO benefits to open trade for us! What we get by the way of cheap slave-produced GMO produce from Florida etc. and $10.00 shirts from the worst sweatshops in the world is the tradeoff of losing our own productive capacity (did you know we used have textile industries here and a lot, lot more fruit farms before "free trade!"
And the specialization of economies does not make them more efficient! It stretches supply chains and adds to both economic and environmental costs, but BIg BIz doesn't care, because it produces either monopolies or near monopolies for the operations they own or hold majority shares in.
So, what are the benefits? And I mean except for Wall Street, London and the leading transnational capitalist class who've been the only segment of societies around the world to get richer under 'free trade?' Just count up the number of billionaires in the world for proof....every country in the world...even the most destitute...now have their own billionaire class who make sure this toxic capitalist system that's out of control keeps on running!
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23 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:
I said they have the right to exist within the recognized borders of Israel. I do not recognize the settlements. I have also in the past repeatedly condemned Israeli army criminal actions against defenseless Palestinian women and children. I am an unbiased poster who sees both sides of the strories and not commenting in a biased one sided manner.
Since this Mideast mess is usually measured from 1967 as the starting line now, we need to go back and make the point that most of the land in 1948-1967 Israel was expropriated from Palestinian Arabs living there. One of the fascinating factoids that popped up during Israel's latest crimes against humanity in Gaza was a reminder that approx. 70% of Gaza residents are refugees...or is more likely the case after this length of time...descendents of refugees from Israel because of the Nakba in 1948!
Prior to the Six Day War in 1967 and that massive land grab, the main issue regarding Israel/Palestine in the west was how these and other Palestinian refugees in Jordan and Lebanon would be resettled and/or compensated for their losses. After 1967, this issue was completely forgotten about, and virtually everyone in the west who considers themselves liberals or conservatives seems to believe that the 1948 State of Israel represents some sort of natural rights and boundaries....and it doesn't fwiw!
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1 minute ago, Argus said:
Correlation is not causation. Those businesses closed for a variety of reasons. Tens of thousands of business closed in the US too, and all over the west during a period where much manufacturing was offshored to China and other low wage locations. Meanwhile we have very low unemployment, so what exactly was the terrible impact of these lost businesses? It seems other businesses prospered and grew, or new businesses rose to replace the old.
And those businesses were mostly owned and controlled locally...or at least more locally than they are today...by nameless, faceless hedge funds. Most of us lost under so called free trade! The 'Rust Belt' was allowed to crash and just hollow out entire cities, our businesses...especially branch plants that American producers used to have to open for a Canadian retail market also closed, and Mexico saw millions of farmers forced off the land by one of the major benefactors of this regime: Big Ag business that mass produces cheap grains and soybeans on large tracts of land (irrigated with water they rarely pay for) have made billions producing the cheap carb products that make people obese and give them type two diabetes.....win, win!
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Just now, angrypenguin said:
You do know how free TRADE works right?
Yes, the elite big business owners with capital win, while everyone else loses....depending on their own income levels.
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Just now, angrypenguin said:
What the F is dollaraucracy?
You didn't know that the US Dollar is the international currency for trade...including trade between foreign nations amongst themselves....until now that is!
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1 minute ago, Argus said:
That was nothing but a deranged rant of no substance.
33,000 businesses closed after NAFTA was signed. and supposedly those lost jobs were replaced by something better.
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1 minute ago, angrypenguin said:
Almost done. Technically speaking the real traitors are the socialists in Canada who voted in Trudeau and potentially the NDP in Ontario.
Good riddance, now that you are jumping on the sinking ship - US of A! The reason why the American Empire is becoming so ruthless and desperate today is because other nations..friend and foe alike, are seeking ways out of US Dollar denominated trading and winning back freedom to decide who they buy and sell to. Without Dollaraucracy, the Empire will crumble under its massive debt-load...like pretty much every other past empire.
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1 minute ago, Argus said:
It's typical brainless Trump blustering and threatening, at least as far as Canada is concerned. He wants to show how tough he is to pressure us to sign off on his stupid NAFTA changes. The thing is, the US actually exports more steel to Canada than it imports from us, and we're certain to slap identical tariffs on them in response.
And what if it isn't? It does seriously dampen any foreign investment from the international oligarchs who run our country today!
We were warned about this over 30 years ago! First, it was the steady drip, drip, drip of loss of control of our economy for the promise of international riches, and now Trump & co. (and don't try to tell me he is smart enough or ambitious enough to carry out policy by himself) are launching the first stage of a regime change operation they subject other nations to who don't give them everything they want! And right now, they want Stephen Harper, or a similar sniveling, ass-kissing clown who will just take orders from Washington and Wall Street!
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You're a traitor! Get out and move to America!
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On 5/29/2018 at 6:25 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:
Geez this is new. Something I never expected to be called. Before I was called many things like a muslim fanatic, an ISIS supporter, An Iran regime supporter, a leftist and now this!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder what would be next. a zionist?
You declared that Israel has a right to the land or most of the land they've laid claim to. What do you consider an Israeli apologist?
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On 5/29/2018 at 3:43 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:
You started your post with denying a historical fact that Arabs invaded east and west and captured territories belonging to long standing civilizations like Egyptions and Persians among others and set fire to libraries and forcefully imposed their own culture. Once you so blatantly deny this historic fact then you totally discredit yourself as an unbiased poster and nobody would believe you no matter what else you say in the rest of your post and infact all your posts become worthless even though what you say in the second half of your post is somewhat true.
And those "civilizations" didn't kill, enslave and push others off the land to claim those empires?
The Arab and later mostly Turkish Muslims who built the caliphates, are not the same Arabs and Turks who live today, who do not claim/nor want to belong to an empire-religious nor secular! Should we judge Italians by what the Roman Empire did two millennia ago?
More recent empires...like the American Empire, are still functioning and running by the same standards today that they were founded with. Same with the settler/colonial state of Israel...which has no legacy going back more than 150 years!
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On 5/28/2018 at 12:47 PM, Michael Hardner said:
I think you didn't pick up on the irony.
The people who love Doug aren't prioritizing ...
1) Single moms
2) People in dire straits
3) Native protestorsNo, I'm saying their suffering shouldn't be used as the framework for ironic comedy...which your intended audience will view as support.
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4 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:
Your post has ignored the purpose of my comment you quoted which was to make an argument that a tiny 8 million nation of Israelis are surrounded by very bitter historically proven violent and conquering people who always invaded and destroyed (read the history books that is if you can read), and imposed their culture upon captured nations. No wonder after making close to 5000 post you only have ONE single reputation point and I wonder who was the single one who gave you that single reputation point!!!!!.
No, first you need to prove that endlessly repeated historical narrative, since it doesn't match with real historical facts such as the unbroken legacy of Jewish populations in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas, as well as usually peaceful coexistence between Christian and Muslim communities.
So when you just import large numbers of outsiders from Europe who push out local populations (look up the Irgun and Menachem Begin etc.) for more foreign Jews to move in, do you expect the welcome mat to get rolled out?
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23 hours ago, betsy said:
Consider that a nation can either be an ethno-religious state or a democracy, but can't claim to be both! "Jewish and democratic state"
That's why most nations that have forged identities out of specific ethno-nationalist pasts have the same dilemma when they claim to be democracies that recognize all citizen's rights. The "Jewish" state cannot accord equal rights to non-Jewish Israelis for this reason, so Israeli Arabs, including Muslims, Druze, Christians etc., let alone the growing population of unrecognized Israeli migrant workers cannot achieve equal rights.
And Abbas, who has long been subject of suspicion as a sellout to the majority of Palestinians, is well aware of the extra baggage that Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders have piled on their "Jewish state" claim, most notably that Jerusalem cannot be divided or negotiated as a shared capital of a Palestinian state.
The alternative to Jewish states and Palestinian states would be a secular state where everyone's rights are recognized...but the continual influx of foreign Jews as instant Israelis/corresponding to the expulsion of native Arabs makes the hopes of a one state solution more and more remote:
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/04/201344840244399.html
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23 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:
No, maybe it is your ignorance of history. I am not certainly an Israeli ally as my posting history shows in THIS thread however, history shows a very violent brutal invasion to their West and East centuries ago by a certain race (i don't name the race so that I am not accused of being racist) residing in today's Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Jordan resulting in destruction of many civilizations. The invasion resulted in cultural oblitration and one based on the fact that after conquer everything belong to them including women. What d you expect these people will do to Israelis when they massacre their own people (Assad, Saddam and others). Israel has the right to defend itself against violence and oblitration intended by extremists.
Hard to figure out what your point is here except that you believe that Arabs are incorrigibly violent and savage...which raises the question: why would anyone want to move in and lay claim to one of their territories?
And you are an Israeli apologist..whether you want to admit it or not, because you're also claiming the State of Israel is the target of aggression/rather than the source of aggression against others. Raising the names of Arab dictators doesn't support your claim...it's just throwing crap at the wall to hide the fact that international law and standards gives the subjects of enclosure and forced removal from their land the right to try to defend themselves/not the oppressors who seize other peoples' lands...regardless of whether they do it in a single swoop or piecemeal actions like in the West Bank.
Should Donald Trump win a Nobel Peace Prize?
in Federal Politics in the United States
Posted
YOu forgot to mention War Criminal- Henry Kissinger won a Peace Prize for his negotiations with North Vietnam back in the 70's too. I didn't vote in the poll, because NO, I don't think Trump deserves a peace prize, but give him one anyway if it removes one of the many potential war zones from erupting into an epic disaster.