TFCandC

Oh I disagree with your comment "...had been considerably touched for some time." Yes, in part you are right. The touching you refer to was/is, the installation of widely spaced hydro towers and.......pathways to be used by those wanting to enjoy the Valley. Oh, some bridges as well but these, of and in themselves, did not seriously impact the Valley. Perhaps "pristine" was inappropriate in context....I can agree to that as well. Nonetheless, there existed throughout the entire length and breadth of the Valley, an ecology, unto itself. I disagree that Natives pretty much "screwed up" everything. The claims of Native burial mounds was a natural assumption to make given the ancient history of the Valley. The Neutrals, being closely related to the Iroquois, were known to inhabit the entire area for hundreds of years. It stands to reason then, where people live, people die. Again...you are partially right. There was this pseudo-Indian from Toronto (a white guy with his hair dyed so black, the dye ran when it rained), called himself Black Wolf, who kinda injected himself into the fight. It became obvious to many of us that he was simply a glory-hound and something of a charlatan who really did make us look bad. We did make a serious effort to disassociate ourselves from him but there he was, always back like a bad penny. All in all, it still was a heartbreaking battle against progress. Glad you agree it never should have been built. "And all educated whites I believe." ????? Where did that come from? I was simply replying to the post that, the ONLY good thing to come out of Six Nations was Derek Miller.

Whoa! Hang on a dang minute. Are you of the impression the Haldimand Deed was a gift out of the kindness of England's heart. No such thing. Prior to the conflict with the American upstarts, England, who knew full and well it could not carry this conflict on its own, repeatedly asked again and again and again, the Mohawks and others of the Six Nations, to side with England and fight the Americans as England's ALLIES. Please note the word "ALLIES." Not subjects! Geeze! History....get it right before you condemn US as foreigners and traitors. The facts; Without the aid of Joseph Brant, his Mohawks and others of the Six Nations, there simply would be no Canada as you see it today! We fought with you, we died with you. We helped form this country and have helped defend it to this very day! Our blood mingles with British blood on every field of conflict in that war. When peace was finally realized, England conveniently "forgot" about its ALLIES when the 49th parallel was drawn. Later, and realizing just how much the Six Nations had lost because we had freely chosen to help England, King George III ordered Haldimand to acquire land in Upper Canada to replace our original territories which ENGLAND had surrendered to the Americans. It was no gift as you suggest. We paid for every mile of the Haldimand Deed with our blood. I don't mean to intentionally insult you but, its as I said before, a little knowledge in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing. By all means, join in on the fray but puh-leeze, know what you are talking about because, as it stands right now.....you simply don't! An' dats da troot! Look it up...Google it....read it. Just key in Haldimand Grant-deed - whatever. You don't have to take just my word for it. Its not hard to find the historical facts which support what I have just told you 100%! I hope when you finally do discover the truth, you're mature enough to say......"crap! I didn't know that!" If you can come back to me and say you have read, researched the Haldimand Deed and STILL stand by what you have posted above........I'll have to assume you have a strange mind with an uncanny ability to twist documented, historical fact and, I'll just shake my head and ignore you in any future debate on the subject.

Tit for tat. You're right. There IS no point! Glad you finally came around. Baiting you was far too easy and getting boring. You do seem to possess a considerable amount of intelligence and yes, you have had some bad experiences with Natives. (sister, I believe). But good grief, try not to malign an entire people because of what some assholes did to your sister. You have every right to be pissed! (if all you know first-hand about the incident is true!) Absolutely! I enjoy a good debate but keeping it factual and objective. One thing I will always tell you is...the truth. Not "my" truth, but THE truth. My initial objective was to inform, but my contribution to this debate was sneered at....as was my reference to The Great Law, which was handed down to us through The Peacemaker from our Creator, SHONKWAYA'TI:SHON, (bit of a tongue twister I know).....thus.....tit for tat. Its true, we certainly have our share of bad apples as does any culture or race. Wasn't always that way I'm proud to say but.......with the intervention of the Europeans upon contact, the imposition of European values and religion, slowly, surely, had a most negative impact on a culture that worked. Its a hard thing to hear that Canada provided the blueprint for Apartheid. Harder still, to learn of Canada's endorsement AND participation in the physical and cultural genocide of an entire race of people on such a huge scale but......the truth is the truth. Much of what I tell you comes from our own people who experienced it. Other records come from the archives in Ottawa under the 'Freedom of Information Act.' There are still thousands of documents that Canada refuses to release. No need to tell you why. I think, deep down, you may probably suspect or even know. So Angus....all you need do is ask. If I know the answer, I will tell you. If I don't, I will say so and then.....I'll do my damnedest to find the answer. Keep in mind, I am a traditionalist. I try my very best to fellow the ancient teachings of The Great Law. One of the most important tenets I feel is, to honour and respect ALL people. Time to start earning your respect as well. Do we have a truce? Better still......bury the hatchet and start fresh? I hope you won't feel I am trying to make a convert out of you to bring you to the Native side of current issues. I AM hoping to simply inform you....nothing more. You can draw your own conclusions of what you will learn. I'd like to recommend a very factual and interesting book. It is touted by the Literary Review of Canada as being "One of the 100 most important Canadian books ever written." I hope you'll agree, that would seem to be a very strong endorsement and pique your interest. It centers on much of what I have already said. In that you seem to have a rather keen and analytical mind, you may very well even enjoy it as (to me) some of the financial facts tend to get boring. But, there's real 'meat' between the covers. Its available through Chapters or Cole's and may have to be ordered. The title; "A National Crime," (The Canadian Government and the Residential School System - 1879 to 1986). John S. Milloy. $26.95. Its a strong (backed by facts and evidence) condemnation of Canada's conduct toward the indigenous peoples of this part of Turtle Island. So...we can go on from here....or call it quits and let it stand. For my part, my apologies for my own childish conduct.

Uh...gee Angus, I AM taking a page from "your" book.........just responding in kind to the puke you post here. Oh...while you're at it, why not contact the Oxford people and advise them of the other "accepted" definitions you mention. Obviously they are ill-informed and out of date. They could benefit from your plethora of knowledge. Debate? No. Its your take on the subject and nothing else. The "good posters" you refer to, are, I'm sure, those who agree with you. You are truly to be pitied. Instead, I laugh, I laugh. When they speak of the mind being a "terrible thing to waste," I think of yours....too late. Its already in a trash site somewhere in Michigan.

Breaking the law? Heck, all I did was bring you up to speed about treaty law which is Canadian law. Interesting that you have decided certain Canadian laws to be irrelevant. Is that not what you just accused us of? Tell me, how do you manage to conduct your daily affairs with one foot constantly stuck in your mouth? Where you born that way or, is this a temporary condition? Gee....must be difficult when it comes to procreation. Sure hope no more of you come out that way.

Hmmm....I guess you hold the achievements of those such as Tom Longboat, Graham Greene, Robbie Robertson, Jay Silverheels, Joseph Brant, Tom Jackson, Murray Porter, E. Pauline Johnson as no account. (Just to mention a few). And I suppose too, the contribution of the famous high-walkers (the Mohawks and others of Six Nations), in constructing many of North America's skyscrapers including the World Trade Center AND being among the very first to leave their Canadian homes to volunteer in the futile rescue attempt of possible survivors during 911, of little or no consequence. Ooops! I forgot to mention the 118 million dollars +, that go into the federal coffers anually from GRE, the cigarette manufacturers at Six Nations. Saws, nails? Ohhh.....yes, those tools you use to build more shopping malls, more sub-divisions, more factories and box-stores ....... urban sprawl. Covering over the vast farmlands and rendering tractors useless. I trust your children's children, children will be comfortable on a diet of chrome, glass, concrete and have no problem digesting money. Saws....cutting a swath through pristine habitat such as the Red Hill Valley in Hamilton.......to create a 4-lane parkway that involved the cutting of 47,000 mature trees; this, to save commuters 17 minutes in traveling time, destroying an ecological system that stood untouched (relatively speaking) for thousands of years, that was enjoyed and shared by Native and non-Native alike. We fought like hell to save it and lost to the greed of so-called progress. As I stood there, defending my land, "brave" motorists would drive by shouting racial insults and giving us the finger while advising me to "get a job." Considering the fact I was earning about $80,000 a year at the time, I found this to be rather hilarious. Just ignorant, uninformed people assuming we were "lazy beer-drinking Indians," on welfare with nothing better to do than get in the way of progress. "Uh...gee Bro', we're outta money and outta beer. What say we go siphon some gas and go stand in the white man's face at Red Hill Valley?" There's more....much more, but as long as you keep spewing out the senseless diatribe you do, others in this forum will have no problem discerning what you really are. Duh! What ignorant s**t would you care to heap on this information? I can hardly wait. Now, I'll fire your own question back to you; "is there anything you personally have done that we should know about?" I think many of us in this forum would like to read your response to that.

Angus, ahhh you old sweet-talker you. For one who gives a half decent imitation of a "spin-master," I'm surprised you mis-understand the definition of "vitriol." The OXFORD DICTIONARY defines "vitriol" as; "cruel and bitter criticism." To do justice to your good self, I re-read my own post to see if perhaps I had included any vitriol, but no, no such inclusion. Well written, well thought out if I do say so myself. If all you wish to do is joust with me, you're humping up the wrong leg. Go your own way in the ignorance you so obviously enjoy. I have no interest in you and will NOT respond to your posts. Being objective and open-minded is clearly beyond your ability. TTFNS!!!!! Oh....P.S. Several (that's more than one), recent public opinion polls have clearly shown that many Canadians are supporting us more-so than you implied. Make a serious effort (if at all possible) to bring yourself up to speed on this subject will you? Thanks (I think). ROFHMBLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!

Ummm.....yes you sarcastic twit, actually I have. On two separate occasions, I alone was responsible for saving two lives........."white" lives. Plus, in the sixties, I wore the uniform of this country for three years and brought no dis-honour on it. And yes, Native culture has contributed to man's well-being to a degree that would likely make you somewhat uncomfortable - white being the best thing to happen to North America since the wheel. You do the research but I have this feeling you can't be bothered as you seem too comfortable living inside your small mind. Truly, the first thing Europeans taught us was to s**t and p**s in the water we drink - what a milestone in progress that was! That "box of rocks" I referred to earlier? Jump in. You'll feel right at home!! You see, I am NOT anti-non-native, just anti-jerk! Too many cherished "white" friends to be affected by the ignorance and misplaced sarcasm of one such as you. If you wish to continue this reparte with me, you had better come better equipped than you are at present.

Re: The Criminal Code of Canada." Its all well and good to beat someone over the head with The Code. However, for a people who have maintained their sovereignty from the beginning, the Code has no meaning. If you wish to use LAW as your platform, consider this; TREATIES! Ask yourself, what are they? They are a binding agreement between two sovereign Nations. Each Nation recognizing the other as defined by International law. A Treaty is a legal document whose contents will withstand the scrutiny of any International court. That treaties with Canada's indigenous peoples has been upheld in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is no small thing. It entrenches in Canadian law, that ALL treaties with Canada's original peoples MUST be upheld! There's no ambiguity in that. Its clearly spelled out and is LAW! Further, the Supreme Court of B.C. has ruled, that treaties MUST be interpreted in the manner in which the original peoples understood them to mean. This is called "precedent." It applies to ALL treaty law in Canada. Now, the two most powerful icons of our (the Iroquois) treaties with the Dutch, French and English, are, The Two Row Wampum and The Silver Covenant Chain. These two sacred vehicles are the root of all our issues with the Crown (Ottawa) and, under International Law, are required by the signatories to be adhered to. We, the Onkwehone:we / Haudenosaunee or, better known to you as the "Iroquois" or "Six Nations," have never, not even once, broken these treaties. On the other hand, literally every treaty Canada (England) has made with us, has been broken by them. Every one. No exceptions. From the time of the Greeks claiming to be the seat of world democracy, we, The Iroquois Confederacy are known to be the "oldest living participatory democracy on earth," for at the time the Greeks claimed to be such, women were still considered chattels. We had in place, the Great Law (which many of us traditionalists adhere to to this day). THIS IS OUR LAW WHICH WE NEVER ABROGATED NOR SURRENDERED TO ANY FOREIGN NATION AT ANY TIME IN OUR HISTORY!!!! We were NEVER defeated in ANY war with the British, the French nor the Dutch. No surrender at any time to any of these nations. Instead, The Two Row Wampum and, the Silver Covenant Chain in which we treated with these Nations, to live side-by-side in peace and friendship; they with their laws, we with our ours and further, neither to interfere one with the other. We are NOT a lawless people by nature as we have our own laws. Laws that served well and for the good of the people and EVERYTHING by consensus. Your laws are adversarial; Crime = punishment and mock any so-called attempts of rehabilitation. Our laws are; Do wrong = healing and rehabilitation, involving the whole community. This Great Law, which served well for hundreds and hundreds of years, was diluted and nearly destroyed by the residential school system and the reserve system. Who is there who can say what we would be today, had the Crown listened to us when we said, "we just want to be left alone?" Remember, the Two Row Wampum & The Silver Covenant Chain. In these legal vessels, we trusted our white brothers and sisters. Sadly, we were wrong to do so. Speak to me no more of your damned colonial laws.......we have our own. And they worked one hell of a lot better than yours! We hope, as a people, that we can live by them once again. In the meantime, get off our land!!!! P.S. To verify any or all of my claims above, you need only to Google.

You're sooo laughable. You berate your own "white" system. Your own people, for it was they, women in high standing in both the political AND business arena as well, who voted her as qualified to join their ranks with this honour. Then there's you, sitting in your little cubicle at RBC with idle time on your hands, casting aspersion upon another whom you do not even know other than from what you have seen on a brief video clip. There's just NO hope (laughing]. You more or less infer that, the other "Powerful Women In Canada" have no higher an I.Q than a box of rocks. Very, very good.

My comments about your total ignorance on this subject, is supported by the the questions you ask. 1/ Hint; Mohawk Nation News is NOT in Ohsweken. Where "she" is, is clearly spelled out in my previous post. 2/ "100 Most Powerful Women In Canada?".........[groan], why, I ask, do you seek answers from me? Based on your posts, it is you who seems to have all the answers. Get back to your research and, while you're at it, take a spelling course. Actually, I apologize for the sarcasm. I just can't get my head past the willingness of the ignorant who post vitriol in an open forum while under the protection of a pseudonym. First lesson; "baited" breath is incorrect. "Bated breath" is how it should read. Ya know, the Holy Bible advises us to, "with all thy getting, get knowledge." What it fails to tell us is, a little knowledge in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing. (as in your case). What I like to say is; "Vast amounts of knowledge are all for naught if its older brother (wisdom), is not by its side." So...I ask.....wherein lies your wisdom?

You really need to hit the books! Bigotry, racism, intolerance, can all be erased with a little education. Where did you ever get the idea that Natives pay NO taxes......are you living under a rock? And do you mean to tell me that alcohol, drug and domestic abuse aren't "rampant" in your own cities, villages and towns? C'mon, give your tiny head a shake! The reserve system? Consider this; somewhere between 1895 - 1905, the white government of South Africa heard rumours of how Canada "controlled" its Native population...so....they sent a delegation to Canada to study these various methods. The result? When they returned to South Africa, what they had learned was to become known to the entire world as.......(can your little brain handle this?) ....... Apartheid....a.k.a. the "reserve" system! You must be mentally deficient to think that we, as a people, wanted the reserve system. There's so much more you cannot possibly begin to imagine. Try this one; we are presently trying to get the Crown (Canada) to explain to us, of the hundreds of thousands of children who "attended" the residential school system, where are the (estimated) 30 to 50 THOUSAND Native children who were ripped from their families and forced into residential schools, that simply disappeared, never to be heard from again? What of the enormous contribution and sacrifice Natives across Canada made, in the formation and defence of this country you seem to be sooo proud of? Yah...you really need to hit the books to understand this very deep and complex subject and my advice to you is, shut up until you know what the hell you are talking about. While you're at it, take spelling as an additional subject. Geeeze.......your comments just ooze bigotry, racism and ignorance.

First, I need to get some of you folks on track, that is, 'assuming' you want to learn. The "woman" of topic, is NOT a "respected Elder." What "she" is, is an extremely well educated woman. "She"..... is also the owner and editor of one of our Native newspapers here, in Ohsweken. "She".....is also extremely well-versed in our history which goes back hundreds and hundreds of years (as many of us are). But more-so than most. It seems to me that, so many criticisms comes from the vast majority of the uninformed, such as most of you here. Why you have so much to say about something you know little, or virtually nothing about, totally befuddles me. It is abundantly clear from reading your posts, this is the case. Total ignorance of our traditional politics and what constitutes and "Elder." Dispensing with the lessons........"she"....is not an Elder. BUT.....just this past year, "she" was named as one of Canada's "100 Most Powerful Women." "Don't push me." You....were not there. Neither was I that day. How is it that you assume sooo much from a brief video clip? How can you assume that, which happened OFF-CAMERA....did not happen? Befuddled I am. You simply cannot know what you did not see. I, on the other hand, made a point of getting my butt out there and talking with eye-witnesses to discover the truth. Talk about 'assuming'. I can assume, by virtue of the many uninformed rants and opinions on this subject, that there is none among you who have taken the pain to discover the truth for yourselves. Why is that you so readily swallow what mainstream media feeds you? The many examples of incidents that have taken place at Caledonia which have been hidden from you by the various media, would simply amaze you. I.....have been there since day one. I....have seen what you have not and, as long as those who control the mainstream media have their way, you will never see it. Its clear to me that, there are too many of you with too much idle time at hand. I could suggest that the majority of you naysayers get informed before you jump into something so complex. From what I have read here to date, suggests that my suggestion will fall on deaf ears. Brings to mind an old Iroquois piece of wisdom; "Silence, before your tongue makes you deaf!!!" ..........as IF.