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The War on Gaza's Children


buffycat

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jennie: Is it not possible to be pro Israeli and not anti-Palestinian? Nobody wants anyone to suffer.

Now if they'd all just listen to reason...but they don't.

Had the Arabs in Gaza done something clever with the piles of aid money sent over the years rather than non-stop war with their Jewish neighbor in vain hopes of reversing history...perhaps they'd have their own power and water companies...rather than living in an 'open air prison' as it has been descibed. Meanwhile the Israelis are just as surrounded on all sides. But their attitude has been somewhat different.

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A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval.

---Mark Twain

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Is it not possible to be pro Israeli and not anti-Palestinian? Nobody wants anyone to suffer. I am not religious of any nature, just human:

Not around here.

If you support the rights of innocent Palestinian (and Bedouin) natives (Christian, Muslim and Jew alike) you are automatically branded an Israel hater and ....

wait for it:

Anti-semite!!!

There are as I am sure you know, many Israelis who don't agree with the policies of their leadership. Brave souls who have spoken and organised peaceful ways to demonstrate and attempt to change things. Not all Israelis want to continue with the draconian oppression carried on now for 40 years.

But then again --- all those folks end up on the S.H.I.T. List

I'm with you - pro people, pro human. All should be able to live in dignity, all should be afforded the right to liberty and peace.

For the culprits in all of this - on all sides - just ask the age old question: Cui Bono?

(Sometimes it's not who one thinks)

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Dog and Bush: Keep on track...

The topic is the children of Gaza - right now in 2007 and what it happening there.

We are not talking history - we are talking about the 'reality on the ground' TODAY.

If you do not wish to discuss what is quite possibly illegal and certainly collective punishment then go start your own threads - or better yet get a room.

:P

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Gideon says it all right here:

No One is Guilty in Israel

No one is guilty in Israel. There is never anyone guilty in Israel. The prime minister who is responsible for the brutal policy toward the Palestinians, the defense minister who knew about and approved the bombardments, the chief of staff, the chief of command and the commander of the division who gave the orders to bombard - not one of them is guilty. They will continue with the work of killing as though nothing has happened: The sun shone, the system flourished and the ritual slaughterer slaughtered. They will continue to pursue the routine of their daily lives, accepted in society like anyone else, and remain in their posts despite the blood on their hands.

A few hours after the disaster, while the Gaza Strip was still enveloped in sorrow and deep in shock, the air force was already hastening to carry out another targeted killing, an arrogant demonstration of just how much this disaster does not concern us.

Israel after the disaster was split: There were those who did their duty and "expressed sorrow," like the prime minister and the defense minister, and there were those who hastened with appalling insensitivity to cast the responsibility onto the Palestinians, like the "moderate" foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, and the deputy defense minister from the Labor Party, Sneh. The silent majority did not bother to emerge from its yawning indifference. The entertainment shows on television continued to make people laugh, and one of the radio stations even broadcast, in a demonstrable lack of taste, Sarit Hadad's song "You're a Big Gun." Mourning, of course, did not descend on Israel, and there was not even a single manifestation of genuine participation in the sorrow. It did not occur to Israel to promise compensation to the families and it did not provide help, apart from transferring some of the wounded to hospitals in Israel. We provided more aid to the victims of the earthquake in Mexico, even though there we didn't have a hand in the disaster. For the most part, the media were not very disturbed by the killing and devoted less attention to it than to the Gay Pride parade.

A day or two after the disaster it was totally forgotten and other affairs are filling our lives. But it is impossible just to go on to the next item on the agenda. This disaster is not an act of God. There are people who are clearly responsible for it, and they must be brought to justice. The fact that the International Court of Justice in The Hague still looks very far from Israel, and the various "Halutzes" and "Galants" can still move around freely in the world, because in Israel they forgive nearly everything, does not mean that war crimes are not being committed here.

The IDF may well be a big gun, but an army that is responsible for needless killing in such large dimensions, as in recent months in Lebanon and in Gaza, is a failed and dangerous army that must urgently be repaired. The Defense Forces are not only killing Arabs for no reason, they are also directly endangering Israel's security, disgracing it in the world and embroiling it again and again.

The heedless and arrogant reaction to such deeds contains a dangerous moral message. If it is possible to dismiss mass killing with a wealth of technical excuses, and not take any drastic measure against those who are truly guilty of it, then Israel is saying that, as far as it is concerned, nothing happened apart from the faulty component in the radar system or the glitch in balancing the sights. But what happened at Beit Hanun, what happened in Israel on the day after and what is continuing to happen in Gaza day after day is a far more frightening distortion than the calibrating of a gun sight.

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B_Cat: Dog and Bush: Keep on track...

The topic is the children of Gaza - right now in 2007 and what it happening there.

We are not talking history - we are talking about the 'reality on the ground' TODAY.

If you do not wish to discuss what is quite possibly illegal and certainly collective punishment then go start your own threads - or better yet get a room.

I'm suggesting that the Palestinan Arabs have made their own bed and now sleep in it...that includes their rock-throwing children. Typically, the Arab's pro-Nazi actions during WW2 and after are overlooked by the pro-Palestinan lobby. Now WW2 might seem like a long time ago to you...but it is under 70 years. That you don't wish to be reminded of the past is just too darn bad. I think the Arab's involvent with the Axis and subsequent lack of regret have really tainted their outlook on reality.

But if we focus on today...what are the children in Gaza/West Bank being taught? That history is of no worry? Move on and forget the past? Hardly. It is driven home that Jews aren't even human and every so-called wrong going straight back to the 7th century is the Jew's fault.

I'll ignore your ad hominum 'get a room' comment for now.

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If a man knew where he would fall, he would spread straw there first.

---Finnish proverb

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Dog and Bush: Keep on track...

The topic is the children of Gaza - right now in 2007 and what it happening there.

We are not talking history - we are talking about the 'reality on the ground' TODAY.

If you do not wish to discuss what is quite possibly illegal and certainly collective punishment then go start your own threads - or better yet get a room.

:P

No....we'll keep you on track. The children of Gaza are just pawns in your longstanding anti-Israeli game. If children be your real concern, head for sub-Saharan Africa. By comparison, Gaza is a paradise provided by the Palestinian leadership and their parent's actions to date.

You are not qualified to determine what is legal or illegal.

I certainly could get a "room", whilst you struggle to get even a clue.

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There are alot of Israelis who DO not agree with the IDF and the militarisation of Israeli Society Rue - not all of them are like you - uncaring towards their fellow man.

Buffy you jump with the labels of right and wrong and who is morally superior to the other. Shh. Stop. Take a breath.

The fact that I ask you to challenge yourself and come out of your comfort zone and discuss conflict in a more neutral manner where you can discuss it without playing on emotion, without trying to shove your formula of who is bad and who is good down your audience's throat - is the point.

On the one hand you lecture me about your compassion but when I read your language it sounds anything but, i.e., judgemental.

What I am saying is true compassion may require us to construct dialogue and concepts that refrain from bad v.s. good, or presenting conflicts as one sided things. That is what I am saying.

You know you can go on the iner-net and find articles to present only those opinions that reflect where your head is at - lots of people do that.

The point is, unlike others, you don't do so based on thinking you are better then others, I think for sure you do it because you think you are being compassionate and doing the right thing.

Unlike some others, I truly believe your lack of flexibility is mistaken idealism not ignorance and that is why I time and time again chide you and for that matter no differently then I do JBG-for the exact same reason.

Each and every time you point out what the IDF has done wrong you have to challenge yourself to push past that. Its not the complete story and you know its not.

It is not as simple as saying IDF bad, what they do is bad bad bad. You know that.

Does anyone want Palestinian civilians killed? Well? Have you read anything in what I said that says that? Come on. What I am saying is the IDF who you criticize, could actually be killing a hell of a lot more civilians then the ones you see, if they didn't exercise restraint and discipline.

You can't understand that because you do not understand the theatre of conflict and the space and proximity of the population to understand that.

Is it right that children die. No. Its not right any child dies.

But its wrong for you to exploit such death for politically partisan purposes is what I am saying. The IDF does not deliberately kill children and you know it. They kill them yes. Deliberately no.

In your world, you skip the fact that the IDF is placed in a moral position of having to defend its people from missile attacks and that includes its children. It doesn't go into the Gaza because it wants to and your demonizing these soldiers and what they do misses the point - that they are as caught up in the cycle of never ending violence as are the Palestinian children and civilians and the Israeli people and their children.

See to me Buffy the huge difference is as imperfect as the IDF is - there is a moral difference between what it does and what Hamas does.

It may not seem that way to you who honestly believes Hamas are just a bunch of nice freedom fighting guys who sit around trying to defend their people but to me there is a huge difference. I have had comrades in the IDF die precisely because they endangered themselves to protect civilians. As much as you think they sit around wanting to kill Palestinian children they do not.

Their job is to stop Hamas.

If you really have compassion show it not just for one side but both sides.

Now ask me, why do I refuse to show compassion for Hamas? Because they deliberately choose to kill. They deliberately choose violence. They deliberately and with great thought place children and civilians in harms way as a political tool.

That is why.

You want me to show compassion? I show it for Palestinian civilians and children, for Israeli civilians and children and the IDF or for that matter any conventional army faced with having to defend its citizens from harm.

Hamas does not defend its people. If it was interested in defending its people it would denounce terror and never place them in harm's way. It is precisely because they choose to put their own selfish political interests first and their peoples' needs second that they do not defend them and never have.

Those Palestinian officials who really defend and care about their people do not engage in violence and they will not succumb to it and you do them and the children of Palestine an injustice using them as a play toy to trot out to try gain moral ground in a debate.

You remind me of charities that trot out pictures of children with flies going up their nose to get a donation.

The problem with such visions is that they exploit the suffering of the children.

Check the preaching Buffy is what I am saying. Otherwise be prepared to wear a white suit, cut your hair like Wayne Newton and travel with an entourage.

Edited by Rue
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Buffy you jump with the labels of right and wrong and who is morally superior to the other. Shh. Stop. Take a breath.

The fact that I ask you to challenge yourself and come out of your comfort zone and discuss conflict in a more neutral manner where you can discuss it without playing on emotion, without trying to shove your formula of who is bad and who is good down your audience's throat - is the point.

On the one hand you lecture me about your compassion but when I read your language it sounds anything but, i.e., judgemental.

What I am saying is true compassion may require us to construct dialogue and concepts that refrain from bad v.s. good, or presenting conflicts as one sided things. That is what I am saying.

You know you can go on the iner-net and find articles to present only those opinions that reflect where your head is at - lots of people do that.

The point is, unlike others, you don't do so based on thinking you are better then others, I think for sure you do it because you think you are being compassionate and doing the right thing.

Unlike some others, I truly believe your lack of flexibility is mistaken idealism not ignorance and that is why I time and time again chide you and for that matter no differently then I do JBG-for the exact same reason.

Each and every time you point out what the IDF has done wrong you have to challenge yourself to push past that. Its not the complete story and you know its not.

It is not as simple as saying IDF bad, what they do is bad bad bad. You know that.

Does anyone want Palestinian civilians killed? Well? Have you read anything in what I said that says that? Come on. What I am saying is the IDF who you criticize, could actually be killing a hell of a lot more civilians then the ones you see, if they didn't exercise restraint and discipline.

You can't understand that because you do not understand the theatre of conflict and the space and proximity of the population to understand that.

Is it right that children die. No. Its not right any child dies.

But its wrong for you to exploit such death for politically partisan purposes is what I am saying. The IDF does not deliberately kill children and you know it. They kill them yes. Deliberately no.

In your world, you skip the fact that the IDF is placed in a moral position of having to defend its people from missile attacks and that includes its children. It doesn't go into the Gaza because it wants to and your demonizing these soldiers and what they do misses the point - that they are as caught up in the cycle of never ending violence as are the Palestinian children and civilians and the Israeli people and their children.

See to me Buffy the huge difference is as imperfect as the IDF is - there is a moral difference between what it does and what Hamas does.

It may not seem that way to you who honestly believes Hamas are just a bunch of nice freedom fighting guys who sit around trying to defend their people but to me there is a huge difference. I have had comrades in the IDF die precisely because they endangered themselves to protect civilians. As much as you think they sit around wanting to kill Palestinian children they do not.

Their job is to stop Hamas.

If you really have compassion show it not just for one side but both sides.

Now ask me, why do I refuse to show compassion for Hamas? Because they deliberately choose to kill. They deliberately choose violence. They deliberately and with great thought place children and civilians in harms way as a political tool.

That is why.

You want me to show compassion? I show it for Palestinian civilians and children, for Israeli civilians and children and the IDF or for that matter any conventional army faced with having to defend its citizens from harm.

Hamas does not defend its people. If it was interested in defending its people it would denounce terror and never place them in harm's way. It is precisely because they choose to put their own selfish political interests first and their peoples' needs second that they do not defend them and never have.

Those Palestinian officials who really defend and care about their people do not engage in violence and they will not succumb to it and you do them and the children of Palestine an injustice using them as a play toy to trot out to try gain moral ground in a debate.

You remind me of charities that trot out pictures of children with flies going up their nose to get a donation.

The problem with such visions is that they exploit the suffering of the children.

Check the preaching Buffy is what I am saying. Otherwise be prepared to wear a white suit, cut your hair like Wayne Newton and travel with an entourage.

I am no expert on the situation, rue, but I know there is another perspective and I think you are being harsh on buffycat.

Children are everyone's concern, everywhere. It is no different than describing the plight of children in Iraq or Darfur.

It should always be the first consideration.

Edited by jennie
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I am no expert on the situation, rue, but I know there is another perspective and I think you are being harsh on buffycat.

Children are everyone's concern, everywhere. It is no different than describing the plight of children in Iraq or Darfur.

It should always be the first consideration.

Deliberately so for exactly the reasons you state above. That our perspective when it comes to children is never to discuss them in a way that divides them, but instead treats them all with the same universal standard. I am deliberately harsh because I believe her approach deliberately exploits the suffering to present only the suffering of one group of the children suffering in this conflict to advance a political agenda to suggest the suffering is caused by only one thing.

I am harsh because I believe the description and references to what is going on there, on the ground can not be helped by trying to describe the conflict by simply only reporting one group's children's suffering and ignoring its underlying causes.

I am harsh because the suffering of the Palestinian children is being used as an exercise not out of genuyine concern for them in my opinion but as a cheap and crass tool to try gain a moral high ground from which to be able to not just criticize particular Israeli policies, but the right of its people to defend their own children from terror.

I believe the suffering of the children in Gaza in this thread were misappropriated for a narrow political agenda and that is why I challenge her as I would anyone.

I will say it again, what is happening on the ground affects children on both sides of the Gaza equally. It all ties back to one thing-the decision of terrorists to deliberately choose to use children as cannon fodder as part of their terrorist campaign.

I will not criticize Israeli policy as the cause of this suffering. It is not. The cause isd terrorists and their decision to use their people as cannon fodder and place them in harm's way and to exploit their safety.

Its about the egos of fundamentalist men who believe they are right and everyone else must conform to their wishes and if that means subjecting their children to death so be it.

When I criticize Israeli actions, I do so contextualizing them not as isolated incidents simply that come out of nowhere for no reason because Israelis simply are demons who want to kill Palestinian children, but because they are caught in a deadly game they did not start, which requires them to protect their own children and in so doing, places them in a situation where if they are to defend their children, they must try stop Hamas and to do that, ends up killing innocent Palestinian children precisely because Hamas puts them in harm's way as a political tool.

I have yet to see anyone oome on this thread and show me how Israel is to defend its children from terror and the people who cause it in a better way then what they are doing.

I never will.

Its easy to sit in the comfort of a bed-room and ponitificate about other people's suffering when the person ponitificating is not being shot at has their life threatened.

You bet I am harsh.

I can't stand righteous people who think they can take the suffering of a people and use it to preach to us all about right and wrong.

To me there is no right and wrong-just idiot humans bent on shoving their beliefs down another's throat setting off chain reactions of compensatory defence.

How does it end-tracing it back to where it started and in this case, the decision to use children as cannon fodder and the decision to believe the only solution is to shoot missiles and pursue a policy to eradicate and wipe out Israel not live in peaceful co-existence.

Want to stop the killing in Gaza? It can be done in literally minutes. Simply take every idiot adult with their guns and terrorist beliefs out of the Gaza. Take away all the weapons and terrorists. Engage in peaceful dialogue not violence. Stop engaging children in the violence by having them carry weapons and bombs or get rid of the missile launchers after the missiles are shot and be used as shields.

Yes I have been on the ground. It is easy to talk about the suffering when you are not there and see how the children are used or placed in harm's way.

Yes its easy for some to lecture how Israeli soldiers are bad bad bad. They have never been there. They have never seen what they actually do. They make up stories on this forum of having been there when they haven't as one poster did or they lecture from a distance. Me, I have seen Israeli soldiers f..ck up. I have also seen them die. I have also seen Palestinian children with guns and weapons and being used as political tools. So excuse me if I sound harsh.

See to me I have seen them all blown up. You get harsh because when they die, and they all end up smouldering, smelling goop, this b.s. distinction as to whose children they are means sweet f..ck all. Once they are dead, these children become indistunguishable. That is the point and you bet it makes me harsh..

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Deliberately so for exactly the reasons you state above. That our perspective when it comes to children is never to discuss them in a way that divides them, but instead treats them all with the same universal standard. I am deliberately harsh because I believe her approach deliberately exploits the suffering to present only the suffering of one group of the children suffering in this conflict to advance a political agenda to suggest the suffering is caused by only one thing.

I am harsh because I believe the description and references to what is going on there, on the ground can not be helped by trying to describe the conflict by simply only reporting one group's children's suffering and ignoring its underlying causes.

I am harsh because the suffering of the Palestinian children is being used as an exercise not out of genuyine concern for them in my opinion but as a cheap and crass tool to try gain a moral high ground from which to be able to not just criticize particular Israeli policies, but the right of its people to defend their own children from terror.

I believe the suffering of the children in Gaza in this thread were misappropriated for a narrow political agenda and that is why I challenge her as I would anyone.

I will say it again, what is happening on the ground affects children on both sides of the Gaza equally. It all ties back to one thing-the decision of terrorists to deliberately choose to use children as cannon fodder as part of their terrorist campaign.

I will not criticize Israeli policy as the cause of this suffering. It is not. The cause isd terrorists and their decision to use their people as cannon fodder and place them in harm's way and to exploit their safety.

Its about the egos of fundamentalist men who believe they are right and everyone else must conform to their wishes and if that means subjecting their children to death so be it.

When I criticize Israeli actions, I do so contextualizing them not as isolated incidents simply that come out of nowhere for no reason because Israelis simply are demons who want to kill Palestinian children, but because they are caught in a deadly game they did not start, which requires them to protect their own children and in so doing, places them in a situation where if they are to defend their children, they must try stop Hamas and to do that, ends up killing innocent Palestinian children precisely because Hamas puts them in harm's way as a political tool.

I have yet to see anyone oome on this thread and show me how Israel is to defend its children from terror and the people who cause it in a better way then what they are doing.

I never will.

Its easy to sit in the comfort of a bed-room and ponitificate about other people's suffering when the person ponitificating is not being shot at has their life threatened.

You bet I am harsh.

I can't stand righteous people who think they can take the suffering of a people and use it to preach to us all about right and wrong.

To me there is no right and wrong-just idiot humans bent on shoving their beliefs down another's throat setting off chain reactions of compensatory defence.

How does it end-tracing it back to where it started and in this case, the decision to use children as cannon fodder and the decision to believe the only solution is to shoot missiles and pursue a policy to eradicate and wipe out Israel not live in peaceful co-existence.

Want to stop the killing in Gaza? It can be done in literally minutes. Simply take every idiot adult with their guns and terrorist beliefs out of the Gaza. Take away all the weapons and terrorists. Engage in peaceful dialogue not violence. Stop engaging children in the violence by having them carry weapons and bombs or get rid of the missile launchers after the missiles are shot and be used as shields.

Yes I have been on the ground. It is easy to talk about the suffering when you are not there and see how the children are used or placed in harm's way.

Yes its easy for some to lecture how Israeli soldiers are bad bad bad. They have never been there. They have never seen what they actually do. They make up stories on this forum of having been there when they haven't as one poster did or they lecture from a distance. Me, I have seen Israeli soldiers f..ck up. I have also seen them die. I have also seen Palestinian children with guns and weapons and being used as political tools. So excuse me if I sound harsh.

See to me I have seen them all blown up. You get harsh because when they die, and they all end up smouldering, smelling goop, this b.s. distinction as to whose children they are means sweet f..ck all. Once they are dead, these children become indistunguishable. That is the point and you bet it makes me harsh..

I can't help but notice that your arguments bear a striking resemblance to people in Caledonia who say everything would be fine if the 'terrorists' would just go away. However, there are still the situations that caused the original division, so it is not a solution really.

What about solutions to what is seen as the 'occupation' in Gaza?

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I can't help but notice that your arguments bear a striking resemblance to people in Caledonia who say everything would be fine if the 'terrorists' would just go away. However, there are still the situations that caused the original division, so it is not a solution really.

What about solutions to what is seen as the 'occupation' in Gaza?

Maybe Jessie you are projecting what you want to see. Sometimes what we think is a vision could simply be us creating a self-fullfilling prophecy,. You tell me you keep seeing the same ugly white man's face in the vision, I say, I am not suprised but how much of that is you wanting to see that?

No the people who want aboriginal people to go away and call aboriginals terrorists have nothing to do with Israelis in Israel faced with their lives being threatened every day by terrorists.

Sorry but the people in Caledonia who call aboriginals terrorists are not Israelis saying the same of Palestinians.

I think your more serious defect in this analogy is assuming Palestinian Terrorists are engaged in the same tactics as Mohawk Warriors. They are not.

Mohhawk Warriors don't attack children or use the elderly to engage in attacks for them. MoHawk Warriors do not shoot missiles at innocent civilians or andomly attack and kill civilians. The last time I looked aboriginal peoples do not have a manifesto calling on all non aboriginals to be sent out of the country or driven into the Hudson's Bay.

If aboriginals did take on such attributes I would be the first to fight them.

So with due respect you are really projecting something that may not exist into a conflict because you see Israelis as the ugly white man. That is unfair to our culture and aspirations and the fears we have of being exterminated.

Read my words. In no way do I suggest ever that killing an child or engaging in any violence is acceptable. I have never said it was o.k. for aborignals to be violent. I have never said it was acceptable for anyone to be violent.

I have never said killing one Palestinian child is ever a good thing or acceptable thing. Its a tragic thing. But what I say and I say it again-what causes their deaths is the choice of humans to engage in violence.

No I will not couch this conflict or any conflict as one where one side is right and the other wrong or one side is justified in using violence.

Interesting how people see what they want to see. Sorry, but this time, you might be mistaking me for someone else.

And you know what? You know damn well I would never support any violent action of anyone. So why pretend otherwise.

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  • 1 month later...
Israel pulled out of Gaza. Gaza is not under Israeli administration. It is not and should not be Israel's responsibility to continue to provide food, water, power, or anything else to Gaza. Israel and Gaza are in a state of war, due to rocket attacks from Gaza, which the government of Gaza (Hamas) does not prevent from occuring. As such, Israel has every right and in fact every responsibility to implement sanctions of all types against this enemy entity. The fact that they still provide Gaza with any food or water at all is merely a generosity.
Exactly. Good post.
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Israel pulled out of Gaza. Gaza is not under Israeli administration. It is not and should not be Israel's responsibility to continue to provide food, water, power, or anything else to Gaza. Israel and Gaza are in a state of war, due to rocket attacks from Gaza, which the government of Gaza (Hamas) does not prevent from occuring. As such, Israel has every right and in fact every responsibility to implement sanctions of all types against this enemy entity. The fact that they still provide Gaza with any food or water at all is merely a generosity.

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Exactly. Good post.

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Buffycat, don't you understand anything! jbg and Bonam are saying that if they got raped in the ass, it's their own responsibility to clean the blood and shit. I sure hope they get a chance to experience that in a prison sometime soon, so they can have a more realistic notion of the nonesense they are spewing against Palestinian victims. "It is not and should not be Israel's responsibility..." WOW!

And I recommend that when they are getting raped by a big fat guy in prison day in day out, they not resist or fight back, because that is called "terrorism"! They should just quietly take it, and be happy about it. If they fight back, the fat guy gets to rape them harder--guilt free too, since they have been "asking for it". Understood! Maybe the fat guy feels so "generous" and will throw them a towel to clean the shit, akin to Israel letting Palestinians not die from thirst. How generous...they should just give Israeli politicians a Nobel Peace Prize every single year.

In fact, I hope that they get raped in their own homes because getting raped in prison does not make a good parallel to the Israeli-Palestinian situation where Israel has come to occupy Palestinian territories, their homes, their streets....

I just read this thread and was dumbfounded by all the anti-Arab hate-filled opinions. Even in Canada, we should be subjected to this b.s.! Am I reading this right? We have people here who can not even sympathize with children's death!

Have YOU read what living in Palestinian territories is like? Is your hatred of Arabs blinded you to human values? Israel is a rich westernized nation, with 2nd biggest army in the world, with WMD, with billions in aid from US....The lives of children in Palestinian territories and Israel bear no comparison. If you pretend to think that the effects of throwing rocks at tanks and rockets, is equivalent to having a fully fledged army, most of it imported directly from US making your life a living hell, then propose a trade! They can trade weapons...Israelis will get to cover their face with scarves and throw rocks at Palestinians...

People who are so frustrated and humiliated beyond words who are willing to blow themselves up, are seen as THE reason for Israeli's crimes against humanity. Again, I recommend to keep your head down and do not struggle while you're getting raped!

Don't you Arab-hating Jews ever get tired of giving Israel a BJ! You know there are Jews out there who are standing up to this longest humanitarian concern in Middle East. Buffycat has given you links to some websites. Stop burying your head in the sand and calling it a night. Read about the hopeless Palestinian situation. Do you have no conscience?!! I guess getting raped by Nazis justifies raping another people, eh? You people nauseating me!

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Buffycat, don't you understand anything! jbg and Bonam are saying that if they got raped in the ass, it's their own responsibility to clean the blood and shit. I sure hope they get a chance to experience that in a prison sometime soon, so they can have a more realistic notion of the nonesense they are spewing against Palestinian victims. "It is not and should not be Israel's responsibility..." WOW!

And I recommend that when they are getting raped by a big fat guy in prison day in day out, they not resist or fight back, because that is called "terrorism"!

Oh yes. Now let's see, Gaza was an independent "Palestinian State" before June 5, 1967, self-supporting and peaceful and those mean Israelis took it all away? Is that your version of reality?

I seem to recall matters quite differently. I recall that Gaza was itself under brutal occupation by Egypt. Egypt didn't want any Gazan migrants, under any conditions.

In May 1967, IIRC, Egypt blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, cutting off Israeli shipping at the Port of Eilat. Egypt then asked the UN to withdraw its peacekeepers left over from the 1956 war, and massed troops in Israel's borders. Israel pre-emptively struck, given its then undefensible boundaries. Occupation of Gaza was the result.

Your language, bordering on indecent, makes no cogizable point.

People who are so frustrated and humiliated beyond words who are willing to blow themselves up, are seen as THE reason for Israeli's crimes against humanity. Again, I recommend to keep your head down and do not struggle while you're getting raped!

Don't you Arab-hating Jews ever get tired of giving Israel a BJ! You know there are Jews out there who are standing up to this longest humanitarian concern in Middle East. Buffycat has given you links to some websites. Stop burying your head in the sand and calling it a night. Read about the hopeless Palestinian situation. Do you have no conscience?!! I guess getting raped by Nazis justifies raping another people, eh? You people nauseating me!

Longest-running humanitarian concern in ME? What about the festering slums in Jiddah? What about the "Palestinians'" destruction of the once bucolic Lebanon? Please.
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Here goes try two!!

Hmmm space bar worked, didn't automatically post to forum - good I guess.

Now, I would love to see this post get back onto topic.

Which is: The effect of the Occupation on Gaza's Children. Some here have said that since Israel 'withdrew' from Gaza that the Gazans have only themselves to blame for the current seige (which is what it is). This of course is utter nonsense. While Israel did indeed dismantle illegal settlements in Gaza, they maintained all control over border crossings as well as access to the Mediterranean Sea (very important for the Gazans - not only for food for themselves but also economically). Since Israel still maintains all control over Gaza, in every way, seeing the 'withdrawl' of the settlers as Israel actually leaving is simply wrong. Add to that the democratic election of Hamas (you know the party who the West and Israel don't like) and we have had a recipe for distaster from day one. Many predictions were made, about the impending humanitarian disaster, and many of those predictions have come to pass.

Now, we have sick children and elders dying due to the embargo and siege. We have thousands of Palestinians separated from their families, some in the West Bank (also under siege conditions) and others stuck in Egypt.

It is quite clear that the Israeli Admins (current and former) do not wish to compromise wrt making peace, they do not wish to give up any of their illegal settlements, refuse to declare their borders and continue to demand outrageous concessions from those they occupy. Until Israel acknowledges that their role as Occupier is in fact doing more damage to Israel than good, we will not see peace - for either Israeli children, or their cousins - the children of the Palestinians.

Here, in keeping with the theme of the OP is a short piece by B'TSelem, concerning the plight of Gazan Children with CF:

Since Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in June 2007, Israel has almost completely prohibited Gazans to enter Israel or go abroad for medical treatment. The last time the children were treated at Hadassah was in September. Since then, Israel has not permitted them to enter its territory, and the toddlers' condition has deteriorated.

Just one snippet out of countless inhumanities.

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I can't see why Hamas doesn't build their own medical facilities instead of using those of a nation they wish to destroy.

Unles of course that would divert funds from their rocket programme. Also, Maybe Hamas should consider building a port...unless of course that would divert manpower, create wealth and dilute their raison d'etre.

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I can't see why Hamas doesn't build their own medical facilities instead of using those of a nation they wish to destroy.

Unles of course that would divert funds from their rocket programme. Also, Maybe Hamas should consider building a port...unless of course that would divert manpower, create wealth and dilute their raison d'etre.

You really have NO clue do ya Dancer?

Israel holds all the pursestrings - they collect the taxes and redistribute it to the PA - which they halted for a long time after the election of Hamas.

If you had any clue, you would also know that part of what Hamas has done is run many humanitarian ventures - of course it is only their 'terrorist' activities which make the news cycle over here (hmmm I wonder why?!).

The also can't build a port because Israel won't let anyone into the water - good grief learn a little will ya?

Here read this before you make such uniformed quip and inaccurate comments:

25 Feb. 07: Israel prevents all boats and fishing off the Gaza coast

According to new research by the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem, since June 2006, Israel has forbidden all boats, including the movement of fishing boats, off the coast of the Gaza Strip. The prohibition has seriously harmed the fishing sector, which provides a livelihood for many residents of the Strip. Fishermen who violate the prohibition risk being shot at by Israeli Navy craft.

In addition to the use of gunfire, in recent months, Israeli forces have adopted a practice of harassing and humiliating the fishermen. B'Tselem learned of many cases in which Navy crews stopped fisherman in the open sea, ordered them under gunpoint to undress, jump into the cold water in their underwear, and swim to the Israeli vessel. The crew then took them to Ashdod Port for questioning. Following many hours, and sometime a full day, at the port, they were returned to their boat. In some cases, Israel returned the fisherman to the Gaza Strip via Erez Crossing.

***

It's from B'TSelem again - great people.

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You know of course Hamas collects thier own protection taxes?

What kind of response what that? I guess you can't rebut anything that I have posted can you? wrt fishing, borders etc - so you state this lame point?

They are the elected government so, they should have the right to collect taxes.

That said - since pretty much everyone in Gaza is now broke they won't be collecting much at all. With the coming cutting off of all fuel and electricity to Gaza expect things to become even worse.

Way to go Israel! Winning hearts and minds and making everyone love you!! If some Gazans didn't hate the Israeli Admin before, they sure have good reason to now.

Bahhh!!

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A factual reply. Israel is responsible for collecting taxes of Palestinians emplyed in Israel.

It's more than that Dancer - and I think you know it but won't admit that you are wrong!!

Here is an article by Amira Hass, who writes for Haaretz - I think you may want to read it before shooting your mouth off again!

Palestinians Are Being Robbed by Israel

"By taking their meager - but undoubtedly their own - revenues, Israel does not punish Hamas or persuade it to change its positions. It simply gives the Palestinians another reason to regard Israel as an aggressive and repressive occupying power."

Her last paragraph above sums it up very well.

Of course, I imagine you will have problems with Hass as she tends to call a spade a spade, while to you the spade is a fork.

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It's more than that Dancer - and I think you know it but won't admit that you are wrong!!

Of course, I imagine you will have problems with Hass as she tends to call a spade a spade, while to you the spade is a fork.

You are correct, I forgot to include duties. Why they should accept money from Israel is beyond me....considering they don't recognise it. Notwithstanding Hamas still collect taxes which they use for terrorist activities. Oh well so it goes.....While I feel sorry for the innocents on both sides, If you can't take care of your own...stop making the sityuation worse. Their biggest problem isn't the israelis, it's themselves.

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Which is: The effect of the Occupation on Gaza's Children.
And what about the effect of random rocket attacks on Israel's children?
Some here have said that since Israel 'withdrew' from Gaza that the Gazans have only themselves to blame for the current seige (which is what it is). This of course is utter nonsense. While Israel did indeed dismantle illegal settlements in Gaza, they maintained all control over border crossings as well as access to the Mediterranean Sea (very important for the Gazans - not only for food for themselves but also economically). Since Israel still maintains all control over Gaza, in every way, seeing the 'withdrawl' of the settlers as Israel actually leaving is simply wrong.
Maybe if the withdrawal was taken gracefully rather than as an excuse for violence the result would be sharply different.
Add to that the democratic election of Hamas (you know the party who the West and Israel don't like) and we have had a recipe for distaster from day one. Many predictions were made, about the impending humanitarian disaster, and many of those predictions have come to pass.

Now, we have sick children and elders dying due to the embargo and siege. We have thousands of Palestinians separated from their families, some in the West Bank (also under siege conditions) and others stuck in Egypt.

The "Palestinians" charted their own disastrous course; not Israel's fault.
It is quite clear that the Israeli Admins (current and former) do not wish to compromise wrt making peace, they do not wish to give up any of their illegal settlements, refuse to declare their borders and continue to demand outrageous concessions from those they occupy. Until Israel acknowledges that their role as Occupier is in fact doing more damage to Israel than good, we will not see peace - for either Israeli children, or their cousins - the children of the Palestinians.
How about the "Palestinians" ending their never-ending state of war? The border would become as difficult an obstacle as Detroit-Windsor.
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