OPP finally act

[jennie]

One you believe, and one you dont. But then again, if you had any idea why, then I am rather confident you would tell me why.

But you didnt , likely because you stopped and said.....Uh oh, caught being a....

Give me a H.....

Everyone is allowed to believe what they believe, I believe.

But I don't believe one can impose what one believes on others, and I don't believe one can publicly denigrate a 'group' of people ... I don't think that's right.

No one believes that is a good thing when it happens to them.

It is wrong when it happens to anyone, imo.

And it does happen here.

Of course, I am attacked because I am me, and that's totally different ... except for the part where people scream "TRAITOR ... INDIAN LOVER" up my nose (not here),

which I guess is a kind of group prejudice thing. Who knows how the ws's minions think.

Give me an H ...

[jefferiah]

Of course, I am attacked because I am me, and that's totally different ... except for the part where people scream "TRAITOR ... INDIAN LOVER" up my nose (not here),

which I guess is a kind of group prejudice thing. Who knows how the ws's minions think.

Jennie, you are beginning to act like a spoiled child on just about every thread you post on. Not only that but you are becoming rather self-deluded. Everyone else is a white supremacist because they don't agree with you, and you seem to think that you are so important that people feel a need to attack you. You are flattering yourself.

You make a claim there is a video of this or that, and then you don't back it up. When people point this out, you do not come back with a good answer but with another allegation of white supremacy or something like that. When someone presents an argument or a question you cannot or sometimes blatantly refuse to answer your only comeback is another allegation.

You, Jennie, have been publically denigrating this chat site. And you know as well as I do that you are going overboard.

[jennie]

Jennie, you are beginning to act like a spoiled child on just about every thread you post on. Not only that but you are becoming rather self-deluded. Everyone else is a white supremacist because they don't agree with you, and you seem to think that you are so important that people feel a need to attack you. You are flattering yourself.

Good, then no doubt they will stop the racist cr.ap

You make a claim there is a video of this or that,

Yes, there is ... for court ... not for you.

and then you don't back it up. When people point this out, you do not come back with a good answer but with another allegation of white supremacy or something like that. When someone presents an argument or a question you cannot or sometimes blatantly refuse to answer your only comeback is another allegation.

blah blah blah broadbrush. something ... someone ... sometimes ... Do you have a real comment on one of my posts or are you just howling at the full moon? (Or maybe it is howling at you!)

You, Jennie, have been publically denigrating this chat site. And you know as well as I do that you are going overboard.

Well ... then answer my questions in the APPROPRIATE thread.

What are the rules? Racism rules here? That's what I am trying to find out.

[jefferiah]

What are the rules? Racism rules here? That's what I am trying to find out.

What are the perceived hate crimes?

[noahbody]

Yes, there is ... for court ... not for you.

Withhold the evidence from police that will clear your name. That's quite a defense strategy. Ever occur to you whoever told you that might be using you as a propaganda outlet as you'll spew just about anything without questioning its validity?

[southerncomfort]

What are the perceived hate crimes?

Anything that Jennie doesn't like or agree with I guess.

[kengs333]

Well, are my eyes deceiving me, or can we finally discuss these issues in a more reasoned manner?

Sadly, I think race-based thinking is something that all people in all cultures and societies on this planet use. And naturally, with Canada having been a predominantly European country for some time, this was going to have a significant impact on those who were not. But I can't think of many countried where such an effort has been made to understand ethnicity and the effects of racism, and in the last 50 years much has changed. In terms of First Nations in Canada, I think much has been done to make amends for what happened in the past; but in some circles this change in tune has been viewed as a situation that can be exploited and hence we get things like the situation in Caledonia.

Unfortunately, this, along with the conduct of some of the more strident members of Six Nations--in all honesty in most cases I have heard "racist" language being used by people of the Six Nations side of the barricade--has I think done much to undermine the First Nation's image, and I truly think that there are many Canadians who have less sympathy for these people than there was several years ago. You can definitely count me among them.

[Posit]

Well, are my eyes deceiving me, or can we finally discuss these issues in a more reasoned manner?

Sadly, I think race-based thinking is something that all people in all cultures and societies on this planet use. And naturally, with Canada having been a predominantly European country for some time, this was going to have a significant impact on those who were not. But I can't think of many countried where such an effort has been made to understand ethnicity and the effects of racism, and in the last 50 years much has changed. In terms of First Nations in Canada, I think much has been done to make amends for what happened in the past; but in some circles this change in tune has been viewed as a situation that can be exploited and hence we get things like the situation in Caledonia.

Unfortunately, this, along with the conduct of some of the more strident members of Six Nations--in all honesty in most cases I have heard "racist" language being used by people of the Six Nations side of the barricade--has I think done much to undermine the First Nation's image, and I truly think that there are many Canadians who have less sympathy for these people than there was several years ago. You can definitely count me among them.

If you asked them, I think they would hardly care that you don't support them. The last true poll of Canadians towards native people suggest that a majority of Canadians support the fair settlement of lands claims. I haven't seen a poll to refute that. So I beleive that you speak from a very narrow circle of experiences. As well, from my own personal experience the majority of people ask "What's Caledonia?" when asked whether they support Six Nations or not. I guess the point is that few care about your opinions and fewer still even care whether an a-bomb went off at DCE.

[kengs333]

If you asked them, I think they would hardly care that you don't support them. The last true poll of Canadians towards native people suggest that a majority of Canadians support the fair settlement of lands claims. I haven't seen a poll to refute that. So I beleive that you speak from a very narrow circle of experiences. As well, from my own personal experience the majority of people ask "What's Caledonia?" when asked whether they support Six Nations or not. I guess the point is that few care about your opinions and fewer still even care whether an a-bomb went off at DCE.

I don't know what polls you're talking about, but I doubt you'll enlighten me, so I don't care. Whatever the case, support largely comes from radical left wing groups, communists, anarchists and the like, some real nutbars, and maybe some moderate do-gooders who don't live nearby. But I think it says a lot when the local Conservative candidate has a sharp increase in support during the last election. One thing's for sure, you've lost some support here recently, haven't you? Hopefully that will give you something to think about.

[Wild Bill]

If you asked them, I think they would hardly care that you don't support them. The last true poll of Canadians towards native people suggest that a majority of Canadians support the fair settlement of lands claims. I haven't seen a poll to refute that. So I beleive that you speak from a very narrow circle of experiences. As well, from my own personal experience the majority of people ask "What's Caledonia?" when asked whether they support Six Nations or not. I guess the point is that few care about your opinions and fewer still even care whether an a-bomb went off at DCE.

Well, if you took a poll only in Caledonia it's a cinch that Six Nations has taken an a-bomb to any goodwill and amity between the two communities!

A lot of folks are going to have to grow old and die before this is ever patched up...

[Posit]

I don't know what polls you're talking about, but I doubt you'll enlighten me, so I don't care. Whatever the case, support largely comes from radical left wing groups, communists, anarchists and the like, some real nutbars, and maybe some moderate do-gooders who don't live nearby. But I think it says a lot when the local Conservative candidate has a sharp increase in support during the last election. One thing's for sure, you've lost some support here recently, haven't you? Hopefully that will give you something to think about.

Your support is irrelevent. I have always had a controversial opposition as long as I have posted here. That doesn't bother me, nor does the fact that the right wing nut bars often come out with personal attacks in response. The focus in presenting the facts and truth isn't to get those who oppose the message. It is aimed at those who sit quietly in the back, nod their heads in agreement and realize just how pathetic the counter arguments really are.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

A truth.

[Posit]

Well, if you took a poll only in Caledonia it's a cinch that Six Nations has taken an a-bomb to any goodwill and amity between the two communities!

A lot of folks are going to have to grow old and die before this is ever patched up...

There are only about two handfuls of people in Caledonia who raise a stink every time Six Nations makes a move. For the most part, the majority say and do nothing. That means that either they agree with Six Nations, or they just don't care.

As to patching it up, I remember seeing the most brilliant solution on another forum. Leave them alone. If only the governments would comply with the law there wouldn't have to be so many disagreements, protests and occupations. It is nothing more than two tier justice where the natives get shafted once again.

[Wild Bill]

There are only about two handfuls of people in Caledonia who raise a stink every time Six Nations makes a move. For the most part, the majority say and do nothing. That means that either they agree with Six Nations, or they just don't care.

As to patching it up, I remember seeing the most brilliant solution on another forum. Leave them alone. If only the governments would comply with the law there wouldn't have to be so many disagreements, protests and occupations. It is nothing more than two tier justice where the natives get shafted once again.

You sound a bit naive to me. Just because the majority aren't overtly protesting doesn't mean apathy or agreement. It simply is the Canadian way not to raise a fuss, particularly if they don't have confidence that they can win.

Like it or not and call it racism or any bad name you can sling and it still doesn't change the fact that after the tv images of Oka Warriors a large number of Canadians believe that natives will use violence up to and including firearms. You can spin all you want with examples like how it was the OPP who killed Mr. George at Ipperwash. With many such examples you will be perfectly correct. It doesn't matter. It's a political situation and in politics perception is reality.

In other words, call me anything you like for saying it but you don't have to change my opinion. You have to change the opinion of large numbers of others, regardless if the opinion is wrong.

So most Caledonians would feel open counter-protests would be dangerous to their personal safety. They already saw that the OPP would not protect them and would actually use force against THEM!

This wasn't really a case of "taking the natives's side", as is commonly stated. It's natural for cops to take the easy way out. They want to keep a situation from escalating. If they push the natives too far things may boil over. Non-natives are more law-abiding and thus are easier for the cops to push around.

Remember, cops like Fantino do not measure success in these situations by preserving the civil rights of ALL citizens, including those on the borders of the Douglas Estates who still get harassed by native protestors. They simply take keeping the violence level low as success. If a few non-natives are left unprotected (it's been published in the local papers of how when one of the homeowners were beseiged they called the OPP and were told that they were on their own and not to call anymore!) this is an acceptable price to a Fantino type, or a McGuinty either. Dalton simply wants to eventually have the Feds solve the problem he created in the first place with the initial botched OPP raid and not have an Ipperwash albatross around HIS neck!

So you can't make the assumption of "silent majority" support or indifference. I don't see how anyone in that town can be indifferent when their life's equity in their home has been wiped out. No one will want to buy a home in Caledonia for a long time. No one will want to set up a business either, that's for sure.

How quick would YOU be to open up a tourist shop in Caledonia?

As for leaving the natives alone, I suspect that idea is already firmly embedded in the townsfolk. I think they will want as little as possible to do with their Six Nations neighbours for generations to come.

Please don't accuse me of being happy about this. It's a crying shame! I don't like it at all. I have Six Nation musician friends, good friends who are also part of a "silent majority", just on the reserve side. Their views are PART of why I believe as I do! They tell me the protesters were for the most part militants from outside who just showed up and took over. It was natural for the local Six Nations folks to be reluctant not to want to publicly be seen as "against their own side" but believe you me there are a LOT of them that are not happy over what has happened and do not support the militants in any way! After all, when things are over the "foreign" militants will move on to the next protest, leaving those who have lived beside friends and family in the town with the problem of the built-up enmity.

I also get my perspective not just from the media but from long time friends who live in that town. Come spring when the town normally opens up for tourism I intend to "go walkabout" in Caledonia and see how things are for myself.

It's easy to take a position from an ivory tower, academic perpective. Usually that has little or nothing to do with what's actually happening among people in a political situation.

As I said, you don't have to win the argument with me. You'd have to convince at least the majority of the population of Caledonia.

[Posit]

Of all the rant volume the entire crux of your argument whittles down to this:

So you can't make the assumption of "silent majority" support or indifference. I don't see how anyone in that town can be indifferent when their life's equity in their home has been wiped out. No one will want to buy a home in Caledonia for a long time. No one will want to set up a business either, that's for sure.

Yes we can. We can conclude that the silent majority is NON-supportive of the antics of the out of town rabble rouser, racists and white supremacists. We can concluded there there is not enough interest in the goings on at DCE to even show up at information meetings under the safety of remote meeting rooms and the wathcful eye of the OPP. We can conclude by the absence of support that those couple dozen agitators do not nearly represent the general opinion of Caledonians.

Life's equity wiped out? Ha ha ha. Go check the real estate offices. House have sold in the past month for within 5% of their asking prices. There is no slow down in the market and it is as strong as it ever has be.

No one will come to Caledonia? Hah ha ha ha! Lots of business come and go and that has nothing to do with the occupation of DCE. The retail businesses in town suffered a setback last year but only because they pissed off Six Nations' residents who eventually took their business elsewhere. Those retailers still haven't recovered from their big mouth syndrome but what do you expect when you treat your customer base like crap? However Six Nations has returned for the most part and the steady stream in and out of Canadian Tire and Tim Hortons is plenty evidence of their patronage.

I would suggest that if you are really concerned about the town, that you gather up McHales' navy and boot him out of town for good. Then take those those dozen skin heads like the traveling smoke shop fella and tell him to grow up and get a job. Lastly take the other big mouths who spout off in ignorance and tell them to shut up or move away.

Accept it! There is NO support for the ongoing anti-native sentiment in town. That's life. Move on.

[Riverwind]

Yes we can. We can conclude that the silent majority is NON-supportive of the antics of the out of town rabble rouser, racists and white supremacists.

No you CAN'T. People keep their heads low because they have seen what happens to their property if they speak out. It is a big mistake to assume that someone you have bullied into silence supports you.

Life's equity wiped out? Ha ha ha. Go check the real estate offices. House have sold in the past month for within 5% of their asking prices. There is no slow down in the market and it is as strong as it ever has be.

I suspect their asking prices are much lower than they would have been without the Six Nations thugs.

Accept it! There is NO support for the ongoing anti-native sentiment in town. That's life. Move on.

Accept it - Six Nations is nothing more than a mafia clan that uses violance and intimidation to bully people into silence.

[Posit]

No you CAN'T. People keep their heads low because they have seen what happens to their property if they speak out. It is a big mistake to assume that someone you have bullied into silence supports you.

I suspect their asking prices are much lower than they would have been without the Six Nations thugs.

Accept it - Six Nations is nothing more than a mafia clan that uses violance and intimidation to bully people into silence.

People haven't been silenced. They are still talking and still come out into the community. In fact the local fair had record attendance (and the parking lot next to fair grounds is on Six Nations land).

Prices for houses are within the standard housing market prices. There are no lowered prices and being within commuting distance of Hamilton the market is still relatively hot. Even new home sales are hot and they are the subject of many Six Nations protests. You haven't a clue RW, like usual.

Canada and Ontario are criminals. When you are constantly subjected to those crimes and the criminal make the rules, what would YOU do?

[Riverwind]

People haven't been silenced. They are still talking and still come out into the community. In fact the local fair had record attendance (and the parking lot next to fair grounds is on Six Nations land).

People who attended anti-SN events had the houses vandalized. You yourself admitted that businesses owners who expressed their views had their businesses boycotted.

Canada and Ontario are criminals. When you are constantly subjected to those crimes and the criminal make the rules, what would YOU do?

Me - I don't think that I am entitled to anything because of who my ancestors were and and no patience for people who do. That means I would not waste my time wallowing in self pity about events that happened 100+ years ago and would simply get on with my life. Edited November 25, 2007 by Riverwind

[Posit]

People who attended anti-SN events had the houses vandalized. You yourself admitted that businesses owners who expressed their views had their businesses boycotted.

Me - I don't think that I am entitled to anything because of who my ancestors were and and no patience for people who do. That means I would not waste my time wallowing in self pity about events that happened 100+ years ago and would simply get on with my life.

We're not talking about 100 years ago. The question was directly to the point and applicable TODAY. What would you do if a criminal continually squatted on your front yard and the police and government refused to do anything about it?

And only the business owners who expressed racism are being boycotted - and most of them by Caledonians, as well.

[Riverwind]

We're not talking about 100 years ago. The question was directly to the point and applicable TODAY. What would you do if a criminal continually squatted on your front yard and the police and government refused to do anything about it?

Six Nations is the only criminal squatting in people yards today. The land that Six Nations is claiming was handed over to the government 100+ years ago. Six Nations would like everyone to believe that some sort of fraud occurred but even if it did the fraud was 100+ years and no one living today has any right to be compensated for it.

And only the business owners who expressed racism are being boycotted - and most of them by Caledonians, as well.

Anyone who disagrees with the Six Nations position is called a racist. Sounds like you agree that Six Nations bullies people into silence.

[Wild Bill]

Of all the rant volume the entire crux of your argument whittles down to this:

So you can't make the assumption of "silent majority" support or indifference. I don't see how anyone in that town can be indifferent when their life's equity in their home has been wiped out. No one will want to buy a home in Caledonia for a long time. No one will want to set up a business either, that's for sure.

Yes we can. We can conclude that the silent majority is NON-supportive of the antics of the out of town rabble rouser, racists and white supremacists. We can concluded there there is not enough interest in the goings on at DCE to even show up at information meetings under the safety of remote meeting rooms and the wathcful eye of the OPP. We can conclude by the absence of support that those couple dozen agitators do not nearly represent the general opinion of Caledonians.

Life's equity wiped out? Ha ha ha. Go check the real estate offices. House have sold in the past month for within 5% of their asking prices. There is no slow down in the market and it is as strong as it ever has be.

No one will come to Caledonia? Hah ha ha ha! Lots of business come and go and that has nothing to do with the occupation of DCE. The retail businesses in town suffered a setback last year but only because they pissed off Six Nations' residents who eventually took their business elsewhere. Those retailers still haven't recovered from their big mouth syndrome but what do you expect when you treat your customer base like crap? However Six Nations has returned for the most part and the steady stream in and out of Canadian Tire and Tim Hortons is plenty evidence of their patronage.

I would suggest that if you are really concerned about the town, that you gather up McHales' navy and boot him out of town for good. Then take those those dozen skin heads like the traveling smoke shop fella and tell him to grow up and get a job. Lastly take the other big mouths who spout off in ignorance and tell them to shut up or move away.

Accept it! There is NO support for the ongoing anti-native sentiment in town. That's life. Move on.

Your rebuttal claims are contrary to everything I have heard or seen for myself. You'll forgive me if I keep researching.

I have a family member in real estate. He will have access to listings and prices in Caledonia. I'll ask him for some printouts. Talking about asking prices is misleading. A better comparison would be with prices before the protests broke out.

You didn't answer my question about if you would be willing to invest your own money in a Caledonia business.

Meanwhile we see in the paper that the Oasis burger stop is likely to have had its last year. The guy who opened a music shop is hanging on by his fingernails.

I know myself from my own crowd where I live that NOBODY goes to Caledonia anymore! As I had said, you may make the argument that they're totally wrong in why they think that way but that's irrelevant! Scold them for not being as smart as you all you want and you still won't get them to go back.

I suspect that ONLY Tim's and Crappy Tire are doing ok!

Anyhow, it will be interesting to see if the listings data bears out your claims. I must admit that from the emotional nature of your posts if you told me the time I would feel better after a second opinion.

Edited November 25, 2007 by Wild Bill

[Wild Bill]

We're not talking about 100 years ago. The question was directly to the point and applicable TODAY. What would you do if a criminal continually squatted on your front yard and the police and government refused to do anything about it?

Not a logical parallel at all. A better description would be that a city's records showed that your front yard had been sold to them years ago. You disagree.

Meanwhile the land had been bought with apparent clear and legal title and now an elderly couple lives there in what they think is their own home.

You finally get frustrated with your dispute with the city and decide to take physical action. However, instead of demonstrating on the city hall front lawn you instead beat up the old couple and toss them off what you regard as your property.

Then when the old folks complain you call them racists!

Your action against the old folks upsets a bunch of their family, friends and neighbours. They used to support you in your beef with the city but not anymore! They are appalled at how you used the old folks as cannon fodder in your fight with a level of government.

You call them all racists, blockade their streets, blow up a hydro transformer to black out the whole town and insist that you are the real victims! When tv cameras actually video tape your illegal and violent acts you first deny it never happened and when told it was on video tape you claim the tapes were total digital fakes!

I actually heard Janie Jamieson say this on CHCH tv! My own ears, my own eyes. Undeniable!

After a couple more embarrassing video clips you beat up the cameramen.

I wonder why McGuinty has refused to go to Caledonia himself. The native protesters have never lifted a finger against him! Or any other government type, for that matter. Just ordinary folks, the older the better.

[kengs333]

Your support is irrelevent. I have always had a controversial opposition as long as I have posted here. That doesn't bother me, nor does the fact that the right wing nut bars often come out with personal attacks in response. The focus in presenting the facts and truth isn't to get those who oppose the message. It is aimed at those who sit quietly in the back, nod their heads in agreement and realize just how pathetic the counter arguments really are.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. Albert Einstein

A truth.

I would hardly call you "opposition" "controversial," it's more like the expected pile of malarky that eminates from Six Nations.

So you think my support is "irrelevant"--oh well. I suppose that means there was another reason for your hysterics, then? And if you don't care what people here think in general, and you post inflammitory rhetoric, outright lies, etc., and that impression is passed on by them to others and so on and so forth, until the point somewhere down the line nobody cares, and Six Nations is dealt with the way that they've always claimed they would be dealt with?

Don't tell me you consider yourself one of these "great spirits"?

[raz395]

I would hardly call you "opposition" "controversial," it's more like the expected pile of malarky that eminates from Six Nations.

So you think my support is "irrelevant"--oh well. I suppose that means there was another reason for your hysterics, then? And if you don't care what people here think in general, and you post inflammitory rhetoric, outright lies, etc., and that impression is passed on by them to others and so on and so forth, until the point somewhere down the line nobody cares, and Six Nations is dealt with the way that they've always claimed they would be dealt with?

Don't tell me you consider yourself one of these "great spirits"?

It saddens me to see that there are no opinions expressed here on how to resolve the issues peacefully. Perhaps it shouldn't surprise me though, because the vitriol emanating from leaders in Caledonia suggests little commitment to peaceful resolution from that town. That is too bad. The only way out of this is forward, and accepting that things have changed is critical. Nobody denies that the town has experienced disruption. The question is : What is the way forward for the people of the area?

[AngusThermopyle]

What is the way forward for the people of the area?

Thats a good question. It's a shame but someone else has pointed out already that the distrust and resentment created in this community may already be too great for any resolution in the near future.

I think it will be quite a while if ever before Caledonia and six nations can move forward. I dont think there will ever any significant depth of trust for the people involved.

[kengs333]

It saddens me to see that there are no opinions expressed here on how to resolve the issues peacefully. Perhaps it shouldn't surprise me though, because the vitriol emanating from leaders in Caledonia suggests little commitment to peaceful resolution from that town. That is too bad. The only way out of this is forward, and accepting that things have changed is critical. Nobody denies that the town has experienced disruption. The question is : What is the way forward for the people of the area?

There will never be a "peaceful resolution" because of the militant stance that Six Nations has taken. Caledonia, like most other parts of Canada, had changed in the last 40 or 50 years. Whatever old animosities there were had erroded because new generations are taking over, generations that were educated and raised in a society that was much more sympathetic and understanding about Indians issues. Moreover, many people were moving into the community from places like Hamilton, and most I would think were not privy to the old issues in the community. Yet suddenly two years ago Six Nations decides to militantly force the government to the table about issues dating back 150 years, and the way they decided to do so was to make life difficult for people in Caledonia. They set up barricades, trespass on private property, assault people, threaten assault, burn tires in the streets, dig up roads (public property), and in general antagonize and harass people from Caledonia with racist and other insulting language; when this finally frustrates enough people in the community, and they decide to make their own feelings heard, they are shouted down as "racists," told to "go back to Europe". The Canadian flag is desicrated, signs pop up with language like "KKKanada," and often referring to "genocide". So basically the Indians have pretty much negated any progress that has been made in the last 40 or 50 years, and I don't see much of a chance for things going up hill from here.