Dion

[jdobbin]

It has been a fairly quiet summer for news stories about Dion.

By all accounts he has been doing the summer barbecue circuit and continuing to try and get central headquarters of the Liberal party ready for an election.

Fundraising remains a disaster. Some of the dinners they had planned had to be cancelled because of poor turn out and poor planning. It would seem they need to continue to reform how they do things because the old ways are not working.

In terms of poll numbers, the Liberals are stable but they have not shown any growth. Their performance in the last part of the Parliamentary session was more focussed. It is probably why the Tories are considering proroguing Parliament rather than trying to salvage what they have.

Dion himself has to be comfortable in how he presents himself. It is not an impossible task. Harper himself built on his lack of natural charisma and became an effective speaker in public.

Many people have underestimated Dion. Certainly there will be Liberals in the leadership convention who did that. The Tories now underestimate him with several people here thinking a Tory majority is pretty much guaranteed because they think Dion is weak.

A Sun column today addresses the underestimation factor.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/Comment/2007/08...395361-sun.html

Think about that. At that time Stephane Dion -- who had followed his father's footsteps into academia -- was a political neophyte, whom the separatists were calling the most hated man in Quebec.

He was being depicted as a rat. Then his father, whom he clearly loved, dies in a terrible accident and his critics imply his father committed suicide because of him?

Never mind that Leon Dion wasn't a separatist and was proud of his son. What a cheap shot.

Even a strong person might understandably have said, "who needs this?" and retreated from politics.

Dion stayed. And fought.

To any Conservative (or Liberal) who thinks this guy isn't tough enough to be prime minister, maybe you'd better think again.

The biggest challenge Dion faces is getting his message out and reforming the party infrastructure. If the Tories being keep to their fixed election date, it gives Dion some time to do this. However, if Harper decides to make every issue a confidence vote, the timeframe is shortened. He has to work fast.

[Michael Bluth]

It would seem they need to continue to reform how they do things because the old ways are not working.

In terms of poll numbers, the Liberals are stable but they have not shown any growth. Their performance in the last part of the Parliamentary session was more focussed. It is probably why the Tories are considering proroguing Parliament rather than trying to salvage what they have.

Even in a basically fluff, cheerleading post for Dion you can't avoid an unsourced and misleading attack on the Conservatives. Numerous critics, and supporters, of the government on this board have said that the Government was out of gas and needs to come forward with a new agenda. Myself included. Prorogation is a great tool in this situation. A new speech from the throne is desperately needed at this time.

Maybe you should take your own advice. The old way of never ending attacks on the Conservatives is not working.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Michael Bluth

[jdobbin]

Even in a basically fluff, cheerleading post for Dion you can't avoid an unsourced and misleading attack on the Conservatives. Numerous critics, and supporters, of the government on this board have said that the Government was out of gas and needs to come forward with a new agenda. Myself included. Prorogation is a great tool in this situation. A new speech from the throne is desperately needed at this time.

Maybe you should take your own advice. The old way of never ending attacks on the Conservatives is not working.

I can't recall you saying the Tories were out of gas and can recall you being one of the people who scoffed at the idea when I posted on the subject in the spring.

The old way of attacking is just fine. It has kept the Tories in a minority standing in terms of poll numbers.

[Michael Bluth]

I can't recall you saying the Tories were out of gas and can recall you being one of the people who scoffed at the idea when I posted on the subject in the spring.

The old way of attacking is just fine. It has kept the Tories in a minority standing in terms of poll numbers.

I said repeatedly that the Government needed to come up with a new agenda. They never expected to last this long. Look at the five priorities. Nobody would ever have expected to take over a year and a half to accomplish them.

I'm glad you think the old way of attacking is just fine. Hopefully it permeates through Liberals who actually spend time volunteering on elections. That mindset cost the Liberals the 2006 election. That mindset is why the Liberals have not shown any growth as you said.

A forward thinking Liberal Party of Canada would aim for winning Government instead of being happy keepoint the Conservatives at a minority standing in terms of poll numbers.

[jdobbin]

I said repeatedly that the Government needed to come up with a new agenda. They never expected to last this long. Look at the five priorities. Nobody would ever have expected to take over a year and a half to accomplish them.

I'm glad you think the old way of attacking is just fine. Hopefully it permeates through Liberals who actually spend time volunteering on elections. That mindset cost the Liberals the 2006 election. That mindset is why the Liberals have not shown any growth as you said.

A forward thinking Liberal Party of Canada would aim for winning Government instead of being happy keepoint the Conservatives at a minority standing in terms of poll numbers.

The attacks in Parliament are probably the only thing that prevented an election this past spring when the Tories were just shy of majority numbers in the polls.

Dion has now bought some time to present a Liberal policy platform together. I think it would be interesting if he presented an income tax cut plan. He seems to be flirting with income splitting which I am not in favour because it isn't as fair as a general tax cut.

[Michael Bluth]

The attacks in Parliament are probably the only thing that prevented an election this past spring when the Tories were just shy of majority numbers in the polls.

Dion has now bought some time to present a Liberal policy platform together. I think it would be interesting if he presented an income tax cut plan. He seems to be flirting with income splitting which I am not in favour because it isn't as fair as a general tax cut.

You can't even keep your own mischaracterizations straight.

You weren't saying that the Tories were just shy of majority numbers in the spring. Link

I hope the never ending stream of fabrications and delusional behaviour is just a screen persona.

[jdobbin]

You can't even keep your own mischaracterizations straight.

You weren't saying that the Tories were just shy of majority numbers in the spring. Link

I hope the never ending stream of fabrications and delusional behaviour is just a screen persona.

Cherry pick much? It is also funny that in that post you complain that I didn't mention statistical tie when it was indeed mentioned in a post you didn't even look at.

Also, June may be in indeed be spring but that was not the poll numbers I was referring to. Keep searching those posts though. I'm sure you'll find it.

Edited August 5, 2007 by jdobbin

[Michael Bluth]

Cherry pick much? It is also funny that in that post you complain that I didn't mention statistical tie when it was indeed mentioned in a post you didn't even look at.

Also, June may be in indeed be spring but that was not the poll numbers I was referring to. Keep searching those posts though. I'm sure you'll find it.

Is it plural? The poll numbers as above or singular as before.

The attacks in Parliament are probably the only thing that prevented an election this past spring when the Tories were just shy of majority numbers in the polls.

If you represent the zenith of Liberal brain power. Look out CPC majority.

[jdobbin]

Is it plural? The poll numbers as above or singular as before.

You can see for yourself in the political polls thread.

[Michael Bluth]

You can see for yourself in the political polls thread.

I think you might get a juvenile little pleasure in these wild goose chases. From the last number of posts you were proven wrong. Clearly obvious to all but you.

Don't get upset for being proven wrong. I admit my mistake to falling for your angry little reindeer game. Have fun!

[jdobbin]

I think you might get a juvenile little pleasure in these wild goose chases. From the last number of posts you were proven wrong. Clearly obvious to all but you.

Don't get upset for being proven wrong. I admit my mistake to falling for your angry little reindeer game. Have fun!

I still say it is in the political polls section. I guess you can't remember when Angus Reid had them at 40 in late winter and very high 30s all through spring. I certainly posted it in there.

Here is what was happening from late February to now for Angus Reid.

http://pollingreport.ca/nslbs.php?catID=2&...2007-07-30&max=

I certainly posted Angus Reid polls in the thread as you well know. March 21 was the first day of spring and a week later, Reid had the Tories at 39%. There was all sorts of talk of an election at that time and you tried to tell everyone that 39% was good enough to win a majority.

You even asked for cites from pollsters who said the Tories needed at least 40% in the polls to get that majority. That was provided to you.

In the same couple of weeks that Reid polls came out, a few from Decima and Strategic Counsel came out. They had the Tories short of the 40% as well. The rest as you say is history. Harper decided it was too risky to go the polls and still fall short of a majority.

The Liberals since that time have been able to take advantage of the fact that the Tories didn't have a lot of policies left in their bag in the advent of no election. Subsequently, the Tories have fallen further in the polls.

Edited August 5, 2007 by jdobbin

[ScottSA]

The biggest challenge Dion faces is getting his message out and reforming the party infrastructure. If the Tories being keep to their fixed election date, it gives Dion some time to do this. However, if Harper decides to make every issue a confidence vote, the timeframe is shortened. He has to work fast.

Dion faces a number of challenges, not least of which is trying to speak some semblence of English and keeping from wetting himself in a bout of hand-wringing and dithering. Actually getting votes is right out of the question. Any that he gets are protest votes by Torontonians.

[jbg]

Dion faces a number of challenges, not least of which is trying to speak some semblence of English and keeping from wetting himself in a bout of hand-wringing and dithering. Actually getting votes is right out of the question. Any that he gets are protest votes by Torontonians.

I'd rephrase that as "Dion faces a number of challenges, not least of which is trying to speak enough English to show respect for a majority of the country, and to decide what he believes in, since he apparently has no core values (similar to PMPM).

[Michael Bluth]

The biggest challenge Dion faces is getting his message out and reforming the party infrastructure. If the Tories being keep to their fixed election date, it gives Dion some time to do this. However, if Harper decides to make every issue a confidence vote, the timeframe is shortened. He has to work fast.

Why shouldn't the Conservatives make more things confidence votes?

If Dion wants the time he has the ability to keep the Conservatives in power.

[jdobbin]

Dion faces a number of challenges, not least of which is trying to speak some semblence of English and keeping from wetting himself in a bout of hand-wringing and dithering. Actually getting votes is right out of the question. Any that he gets are protest votes by Torontonians.

And yet somehow he remained enough of a threat that the Tories kept themselves from pulling the plug on him this spring.

[jdobbin]

I'd rephrase that as "Dion faces a number of challenges, not least of which is trying to speak enough English to show respect for a majority of the country, and to decide what he believes in, since he apparently has no core values (similar to PMPM).

I'd day one of those core values is federalism which I don't know that Harper has. Given a majority, who is likely to devolve power to the provinces?

Now, for some people this is the ideal: the dissolution of federalism. However, for those who don't share that ideal, they know that it is a core value for Dion.

[jdobbin]

Why shouldn't the Conservatives make more things confidence votes?

If Dion wants the time he has the ability to keep the Conservatives in power.

I have no problem if the Tories want to use brinkmanship. I'd suggest that there are certain issues that they will not want to do it on and could lose badly if they do.

I think that brinkmanship would probably emphasize the alliance the Tories have with the BQ.

[Michael Bluth]

I have no problem if the Tories want to use brinkmanship. I'd suggest that there are certain issues that they will not want to do it on and could lose badly if they do.

I think that brinkmanship would probably emphasize the alliance the Tories have with the BQ.

The Conservatives will be more forceful in asserting their power as the Government.

There is no formal alliance between the Conservatives and the BQ. Intimating that is false. It is not fostering political debate to mischaracterize a situation in that manner.

[jdobbin]

The Conservatives will be more forceful in asserting their power as the Government.

There is no formal alliance between the Conservatives and the BQ. Intimating that is false. It is not fostering political debate to mischaracterize a situation in that manner.

It does not help not to recognize how important Quebec is to Harper in winning an election and how much he what he does benefits the BQ who are able to wrangle more out of him than say, Newfoundland.

The BQ were fully aligned with the Tories on the budget and why not? They did very well with it. I'm sure they will continue to prop up the government in this alliance of currying favour in Quebec.

[Michael Bluth]

It does not help not to recognize how important Quebec is to Harper in winning an election and how much he what he does benefits the BQ who are able to wrangle more out of him than say, Newfoundland.

The BQ were fully aligned with the Tories on the budget and why not? They did very well with it. I'm sure they will continue to prop up the government in this alliance of currying favour in Quebec.

It doesn't help to mischaracterize the relationship between the Conservatives and the BQ.

"Alliance of currying favour" is yet another example of this mischaraterization.

[jdobbin]

It doesn't help to mischaracterize the relationship between the Conservatives and the BQ.

"Alliance of currying favour" is yet another example of this mischaraterization.

Sorry if you don't like how the relationship is interpreted.

[Michael Bluth]

Sorry if you don't like how the relationship is interpreted.

Sorry if you don't like your mischaraterizations being pointed out.

[jdobbin]

Sorry if you don't like your mischaraterizations being pointed out.

They are only mischaracterizations to you.

Most people on the right have had to accept that in a minority government that one of the parties has to support the Tories to keep them from being losing a confidence vote. The Tories and BQ have had such an alliance on budgets.

[Michael Bluth]

Most people on the right have had to accept that in a minority government that one of the parties has to support the Tories to keep them from being losing a confidence vote.

By that logic it is fair to say the Conservatives and Liberals had an alliance on extending the mission in Afghanistan.

Yup the Liberals were members of the Alliance of Canada living up to its military obligations in Afghanistan. Odd how you don't say that in any Liberal propaganda.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Michael Bluth

[jdobbin]

By that logic it is fair to say the Conservatives and Liberals had an alliance on extending the mission in Afghanistan.

Yup the Liberals were members of the Alliance of Canada living up to its military obligations in Afghanistan. Odd how you don't say that in any Liberal propaganda.

I can't recall that being a matter of confidence or that this was propping up the government, do you?