Why was KO2 banned?

[Electric Monk]

I just re-read this entire thread, and I encountered numerous violations of forum rules. My problem is, I can click the report button on all of them, but I don't know if any of them have already been reported, and I don't want to needlessly bother the moderators if they are already aware of the violations.

What are the conclusions I should come to about the fact that there are numerous rule violations remaining in a thread where both moderators have posted, and is in the Support and Questions section of the site?

Is the workload too high? Is enforcement not universal? What is the purpose of having forum rules if they are not enforced?

These are honest questions, and are not meant to offend.

[Michael Bluth]

Is enforcement not universal? What is the purpose of having forum rules if they are not enforced?

These are honest questions, and are not meant to offend.

Those two questions are the key to this thread.

Hopefully when the mods read this they recognize the intent in the questions.

IMO polite and respectful behaviour on everybody's part is the key to this board functioning well.

[shavluk]

yeah well am not this guy as some of you have said,,,,,,

shavluk ,,,,,,, there is a history out there

[August1991]

Is the workload too high? Is enforcement not universal? What is the purpose of having forum rules if they are not enforced?

These are honest questions, and are not meant to offend.

Shoplifting is illegal but many shoplifters are never caught. Does this non-enforcement of the law mean that we should abandon shoplifting laws?

Some planes crash and people die. Does this mean that we should stop air travel?

I report posts that I find offensive (with a brief explanation why, sometimes referring to forum rules). IME, Greg/Charles are objective but impatient. They warn in advance.

[Electric Monk]

If the shoplifting is happening under the noses of security, and nothing is done, then there is a problem. Analogies aside, that's not what I am saying. There may be perfectly good reasons for what happens here.

[Argus]

Shoplifting is illegal but many shoplifters are never caught. Does this non-enforcement of the law mean that we should abandon shoplifting laws?

Poor analogy. A better one is the posted speed limit. Everyone knows what it is, but few ever adhere to the limit. When I drive to work in the morning on a particular driveway, the speed limit is 60. If I go less than 80 everyone will be passing me by and giving me the finger. Occasionally the cops will pull someone over to make a point, to remind people that yes indeed, there is a limit of sixty. But that's more to keep people from going too far over the top.

Every time I come here I see numerous violations of the rules, on every thread. Virtually every poster does it. Occasionally, someone gets "pulled over", perhaps because they went over the top, perhaps because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Open disrespect and ridicule of opponents is not rare but the norm. Reporting such things appears to do little good except in the more extreme cases as reports are rarely acknowledged and behavior is not noticeably modified. And so one comes to respond in kind.

[Argus]

Those two questions are the key to this thread.

Hopefully when the mods read this they recognize the intent in the questions.

IMO polite and respectful behaviour on everybody's part is the key to this board functioning well.

And how often do you see that?

[Electric Monk]

Every time I come here I see numerous violations of the rules, on every thread. Virtually every poster does it. Occasionally, someone gets "pulled over", perhaps because they went over the top, perhaps because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Open disrespect and ridicule of opponents is not rare but the norm. Reporting such things appears to do little good except in the more extreme cases as reports are rarely acknowledged and behavior is not noticeably modified. And so one comes to respond in kind.

Brilliantly put!! I think you've summed up the main challenge here, it is very hard to maintain civility when you are constantly ridiculed and attacked personally, and the tendency is to leave to try to find somewhere else that is less combative. I think the appointment of Charles Anthony to moderator is a step in the right direction, but I think if we wish to make this forum a truly open marketplace of ideas, members need to feel that they will not be attacked for sharing their thoughts. Action needs to be swift and transparent. I have a problem with an overly large "government", but I think there are also problems when the "government" is too small.

[Charles Anthony]

El.Mo. and Argus,

Are you suggesting that the moderators should go back and edit or delete the posts of individual members when forum rules are violated?

[Electric Monk]

Not necessarily, but I think that if there was some kind of notice in the thread about the action that was taken, it would let people know that action had been taken, and help deter further violations.

Edit: Even a notice that appears in the post informing others that it has been reported may be useful, but such a feature may be open to abuse.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Electric Monk

[Greg]

One of the other forums I frequent has a very open moderating style where instead of only privately messaging a rule breaker, they also post the warning in the thread itself, right after the offensive post. This serves a number of purposes. First, it embarrasses the offender, which hopefully leads to greater future compliance with the rules. Second, it provides others with a re-enforcing example of consequences for rule breaking. Third, it shows that rules are being enforced, and why the punishment is occurring.

A downside to this is that it possibly requires more work on the part of the moderators, and thus more moderators, but in my opinion it is a far superior method of handling conflicts. I much prefer an open and accountable government to one that is secret and unaccountable.

Opening warning posters creates a situation where individual posters, who are subject to the warnings, feel attacked. Also consider while you may send in a Report, that doesn't always mean Charles and I act on the Report. Charles and I take into consideration many different factors when issuing warnings, and the Reports that are sent to us are only the beginning of the process to assess whether an warning, suspension or a banning will be handed out.

Open and accountable moderation doesn't necessarily mean everyone should have access to the Reports and or our responses to those Reports. I've also made myself available to answer members questions about forum moderation, forum features, etc. I also take into consideration members opinions on these topics. However, you must trust me when it comes to moderation - this forum has avoided a partisan/ideological lean for years. The forum has been a success because of the clear and concise rules and guidelines and the fair application of those rules by myself (and more recently, Charles).

It's not a perfect system - I admit that - but it is certainly better than most alternatives. And I assume most of us have participated in forums where anarchy rules.

[M.Dancer]

And I assume most of us have participated in forums where anarchy rules.

Yes and also where chaos rules and of the two I prefer anarchy. The largest site I participate in is more of a blog than a forum, but has over 22,000 members and only one admin whose main function is housekeeping. Beyond that all moderation is done by the members who have the opportunity to score posts as interesting or boring, flamebait or trolling. Each individual member decides what their viewing threshold is and posts with scores beow the individual threshold disappear.

That is anarchy and it has been running smoothly for at least 7 years.

Another site I know has had at periods more moderators than members, more rules than posts. That is Chaos.

[ScottSA]

Another site I know has had at periods more moderators than members, more rules than posts. That is Chaos.

Not any more. Now it's a graveyard.

[M.Dancer]

Not any more. Now it's a graveyard.

Today' top 10 posters had two names accounting for two posts. One was the current power mad mod saying he was moving a thread.

[sharkman]

I think it's always slower in the summer around here.

[Greg]

I think it's always slower in the summer around here.

I'm pretty sure they're not talking about these forums. Yesterday this forum has over 348 separate postings and 7 new topics created.

[Canuck E Stan]

I'm pretty sure they're not talking about these forums. Yesterday this forum has over 348 separate postings and 7 new topics created.

Sounds like a lot, but how many without jdobbin's contribution?

[jdobbin]

Sounds like a lot, but how many without jdobbin's contribution?

I'm not even listed in the top 10 for the last days.

[Canuck E Stan]

I'm not even listed in the top 10 for the last days.

Fingers getting sore, or just running out of something new to say?

[ScottSA]

I'm pretty sure they're not talking about these forums. Yesterday this forum has over 348 separate postings and 7 new topics created.

Nope...Momo and I were talking about a different forum. Ex-forum, actually; driven into the ground by a surfeit of moderation.

[jdobbin]

Fingers getting sore, or just running out of something new to say?

Enjoying a beautiful summer and travelling. Aside from something new to say, I hope that never happens or I won't be able to continue a writing career.

Other than that, I have no real desire to get in debates about God or race or religion which is what a lot of the posts cover nowadays.

[M.Dancer]

I'm pretty sure they're not talking about these forums. Yesterday this forum has over 348 separate postings and 7 new topics created.

Quite right. This place is well run and consequently busy. The point though, even a forum that has anarchy as its format can be well run and busy or a heavy moderated one be a total wipe out.

....in the end for each style it is up to the concensus of the members whether that style will work.

[Argus]

El.Mo. and Argus,

Are you suggesting that the moderators should go back and edit or delete the posts of individual members when forum rules are violated?

Frankly, I wouldn't object to that. As EM has said, it's quite difficult to maintain civility and respect when one is subjected to none, and so one tends to respond in kind.

Occasionally Greg has been known to simply post "smarten up, idiots" or words to that affect in a thread. That might be a decent alternative.

[Argus]

Today' top 10 posters had two names accounting for two posts. One was the current power mad mod saying he was moving a thread.

Far be it for me to call for more moderation, and I can understand how too much would shut down debate. On the other hand, not enough can destroy a forum, as well. I used to be a newsgroup poster, esp to groups like can.politics, but they simply deteriorated into a rats nest of crazies, flamers and pulpit thumping demagogues, and so I drifted away.

[M.Dancer]

Far be it for me to call for more moderation, and I can understand how too much would shut down debate. On the other hand, not enough can destroy a forum, as well. I used to be a newsgroup poster, esp to groups like can.politics, but they simply deteriorated into a rats nest of crazies, flamers and pulpit thumping demagogues, and so I drifted away.

Sure, but allowing the members to self moderate isn't the same as no moderation at all. By and large it like having a jury of your peers vs someone who happens to think they know better than you. More often than not, they don't.

This place for the most part has good moderation but there are still plenty of loonies here. And if they haven't posted much recently it's because they don't get the feed back they want. That in itself is a version of community moderation.

The forum that I was talking about died because they had too many moderators who thought they knew what a good forum needed. In their minds it was total control. They now have 3 active members.