Total Utter Abysmal Trash, Or Total Ingrates

[jbg]

Tonight, I attended, with my wife, my parents and my father in law, a "moving up" ceremony for students graduating elementary school and moving to Middle School. It was a glorious evening and event overall.

What did make me sick was something my parents saw, but I did not witness. They saw an Iranian immigrant family, in country for 30 years, who refused to utter the Pledge of Allegiance (text below) or even put his hand on his heart during the pledge. They spoke perfect English, were obviously otherwise assimilated, and taking advantage of life in the world's second greatest country (after our neighbor to the north) and being utterly ungrateful for it.

Personally, I felt like seeking them out and kicking them in the teeth. In both our countries we have given many of the world's people a chance at avoiding medieval chaos and getting ahead. There is no worse garbage than people who don't appreciate.

Thankfully, most do. A good 500 people there had their hands on their heart and were saying the Pledge.1

1Text of Pledge of Allegiance: I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to this Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under G-d, indivisible, with liberty, and justice, for all.

[jefferiah]

This post makes me think of an incident which occured not so long ago at the high school I attended when I was a teenager. A grade nine teacher reprimanded a student for not standing during the national anthem and sent the boy to the principal's office. The boy was sent back to class and the teacher was suspended for his attempt at disciplining the boy.

[jbg]

This post makes me think of an incident which occured not so long ago at the high school I attended when I was a teenager. A grade nine teacher reprimanded a student for not standing during the national anthem and sent the boy to the principal's office. The boy was sent back to class and the teacher was suspended for his attempt at disciplining the boy.

Just nauseating. No one appreciates what's been done to ensure freedom for these creeps.

[August1991]

I'm going to disagree, jbg.

In both our countries we have given many of the world's people a chance at avoiding medieval chaos and getting ahead.

We? You mean, you and me?

These people presumably paid their way. And if they are green card holders but not citizens, they have no allegiance to the US flag. And even if they are citizens, it is their right (if not duty) to question authority.

Maybe because I am Canadian, I consider these people to be impolite, or even ungrateful. I hope their refusal was civilized.

I have always liked Margaret Thatcher's view on this issue. We in the West are open-minded, tolerant and liberal. We should not be shy to defend strongly these values.

[jbg]

I have always liked Margaret Thatcher's view on this issue. We in the West are open-minded, tolerant and liberal. We should not be shy to defend strongly these values.

Not a bad view. Doesn't make me wrong by feeling like wretching when I see/hear something like that.

I wouldn't be on this Board if the US didn't exist as a free country, one that didn't care about the nature of my ancestors' religion, between 1890 and 1910.

[jdobbin]

Personally, I felt like seeking them out and kicking them in the teeth. In both our countries we have given many of the world's people a chance at avoiding medieval chaos and getting ahead. There is no worse garbage than people who don't appreciate.

Thankfully, most do. A good 500 people there had their hands on their heart and were saying the Pledge.1

1Text of Pledge of Allegiance: I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to this Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under G-d, indivisible, with liberty, and justice, for all.

It would not be the first time that people have suffered violence because of the Pledge of Allegiance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_criticism

As I understand it, it is not a legal requirement to swear to it. But then I am Canadian and know nothing about the United States.

It seems that you would like to harm people who are protected by the First and Fourteenth amendments of the U.S. constitution. Too bad we don't have any lawyers about to recite what those amendments are.

[jbg]

It seems that you would like to harm people who are protected by the First and Fourteenth amendments of the U.S. constitution. Too bad we don't have any lawyers about to recite what those amendments are.

I am a very nonviolent person. All that I ask is that people who benefit by our freedom respect the traditions that make it possible.

[Shakeyhands]

just another weak attempt to denigrate a muslim.

[cybercoma]

edit: My original comment was probably inappropriate and not really what I think.

Here's the deal. As part of free-speech they should be entitled to not being forced to say the pledge.

If you want to sit there and be personally disgusted and keep it to yourself, that's your prerogative; however, people shouldn't be required to say the pledge.

[jdobbin]

I am a very nonviolent person. All that I ask is that people who benefit by our freedom respect the traditions that make it possible.

Even if that tradition goes against your religion? It would seem the new tradition in the United States is not to circumsize babies. This week, a new report says numbers are dropping quickly.

I'm sure some people are seething with anger that Jewish people still do it babies despite this growing "tradition" not to do it.

Do you think if the tradition in the U.S. eventually becomes no circumcisions, that Jewish people should comply?

It would seem some Jewish parents are.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...hpid=sec-health

SAN FRANCISCO -- On the eighth day of her son's life, Julia Query welcomed friends and family to celebrate his birth and honor their Jewish heritage.

But there was no crying, no scalpel, no blood, no "mohel" _ the person who traditionally performs ritual circumcisions in the Jewish faith. In fact, Elijah Rose's "bris" differed markedly from the ceremony long used to initiate Jewish boys into a covenant with God: There was no circumcision.

"I knew before I was even pregnant that I would not circumcise," said Query, 39, a San Francisco filmmaker whose son was born in 2002. "It's not like you're just cutting a piece of paper off a pad _ there's no `cut here' line. It's not made to be cut off, and I would never, ever do that to my baby."

Or do you think this is apples and oranges?

[stignasty]

I'm in the camp that believes saying any Pledge like this is not compulsory and that each person should have the right to refuse. I remember hearing that the Supreme Court of the USA came to the same conclusion. I also think the "under God" part was only added during the Cold War.

I'm sure some people are seething with anger that Jewish people still do it babies despite this growing "tradition" not to do it.

Do you think if the tradition in the U.S. eventually becomes no circumcisions, that Jewish people should comply?

It would seem some Jewish parents are.

Or do you think this is apples and oranges?

Christopher Hitchens goes on at great length about how circumcision is unnecessary and that it is simply religious child abuse.

I think your analogy is appropriate. To bring it around full circle though, what would be the reaction to someone saying that they wanted to kick a Jewish person in the teeth for continuing their religious practice of circumcising their baby?

[M.Dancer]

1Text of Pledge of Allegiance: I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to this Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under G-d, indivisible, with liberty, and justice, for all.

While I'm not a Jehova's witness, I have considered a pledge of allegiance to a flag to be idolatrous....

...

[Peter F]

1Text of Pledge of Allegiance: I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to this Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under G-d, indivisible, with liberty, and justice, for all.

While I'm not a Jehova's witness, I have considered a pledge of allegiance to a flag to be idolatrous....

...

Personally, I think such pledges are meaningless pap. To me anyways. Others find value in such things. I wouldn't have recited the pledge either. I betcha if I'd have been in attendance no one would notice me not reciting.

[Leafless]

Personally, I think such pledges are meaningless pap.

That is because you do not know what a REAL country is.

And that is a country that belongs to your tribe and no one eles's.

Then you would feel proud and dedicated.

[guyser]

I have to say I am also one of those who would not recite that , nor would I recite any grace or prayer when in church for a funeral or whathaveyou. I dont agree with my mom and her grace before a meal, but I sit there and keep quiet.

Now if these people were making a vocal stand against it, then I am in your camp. That would be, is, plain rude. But a silent refusal to do so gets a pass from me.

Sorry jbg.

And doesnt the fact that it was penned by a socialist baptist minister not at least raise your eyebrow?

[Peter F]

Personally, I think such pledges are meaningless pap.

That is because you do not know what a REAL country is.

And that is a country that belongs to your tribe and no one eles's.

Then you would feel proud and dedicated.

You are mistaken. I most certainly would not and do not feel pride for my tribe to the exclusion of others.

I do love this country. I love it because we have no pledges to recite, nor dutys to salute flags, nor requirements to wear ribbons, nor rules to behave 'Canadian'. Those are things that make this country great.

[WestViking]

1Text of Pledge of Allegiance: I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to this Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under G-d, indivisible, with liberty, and justice, for all.

While I'm not a Jehova's witness, I have considered a pledge of allegiance to a flag to be idolatrous....

...

Personally, I think such pledges are meaningless pap. To me anyways. Others find value in such things. I wouldn't have recited the pledge either. I betcha if I'd have been in attendance no one would notice me not reciting.

I believe the current Pledge reads:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands:

one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

I Pledge Allegiance - I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty)

to the flag - to the emblem that stands for and represents

of the United States - all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag

of America - yet formed into a union of one Nation.

and to the Republic - And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the people are sovereign,

for which it stands, - this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty.

one Nation under God, - These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)

indivisible, - and can not be separated. (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 50 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history)

with Liberty - The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness",

and Justice - And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,

for All. - And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria. Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.

[Peter F]

I believe the current Pledge reads:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands:

one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

I Pledge Allegiance - I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty)

to the flag - to the emblem that stands for and represents

of the United States - all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag

of America - yet formed into a union of one Nation.

and to the Republic - And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the people are sovereign,

for which it stands, - this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty.

one Nation under God, - These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)

indivisible, - and can not be separated. (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 50 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history)

with Liberty - The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness",

and Justice - And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,

for All. - And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria. Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.

Thank you for that. Make no wonder I wouldn't recite it. Then again, I'm not American so why would I?

[WestViking]

Thank you for that. Make no wonder I wouldn't recite it. Then again, I'm not American so why would I?

I don't think that is at issue here. Canadians in the US would not be expected to pledge allegiance to another nation, with the exception of Canadians who enlist in the US armed forces.

The original Pledge to the Flag dates back to 1892, so the tradition of pledging allegiance to the flag in the US has been ongoing for well over a century.

Americans do care about the Pledge and its wording. The wording was amended in 1923 and 1924, but was not 'official' until adopted by Congress 1942. In 1943, the US Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge as part of their daily routine.

The Pledge was last amended in 1954 and became the Pledge of Allegiance, and the words "under God" were added.

While reciting the pledge is voluntary, one can only wonder why any American would find the Pledge offensive. We rarely stop to recognize or give thanks to the generations who sacrifices and suffered to build and to protect the nations and the plenty we enjoy today. We seem reluctant to accept that there is value in the lessons of our grandfathers; we need to avoid repeating their mistakes as mush as we need to learn from their many, many triumphs.

People are the foundation of any democracy. The nations we live in are the result of the cumulated efforts of generations of ordinary people. We are governed to the extent that we will allow those we elect to govern us. Those who question authority and speak out against what they perceive as excesses of governance are what keeps any democracy healthy. We cannot mature as individuals without occasionally questioning our behaviour and motivations. We cannot mature as nations without examining our adherence to sound fundamental principles.

When we make a pledge or oath of allegiance to our nation and its symbols, in part we undertake an obligation to make our nation better; to refuse to allow our nation to slide into sloppy ways; to quit blaming 'government' for governance ills and work for improvement; to ensure that we and our fellow citizens are treated equally, with compassion, justice; and that our freedom is forever protected.

Past generation fought for our liberty; we owe it to them to ensure our liberty is not infringed upon by those we have selected as leaders. We will always face power-hungry politicians eager to limit our freedoms ‘for our own good’. As long as we retain the right of the vote, we can curb their excesses and rid ourselves of tyrants in sheep's clothing.

Ultimately, our allegiance to our nation is of far greater importance than our allegiance to any political or religious or any other body. The power and influence of secular and religious bodies grow and wane over time; the nation we build together is our heritage to our children and future generations. Our nation, with all its flaws, is worthy of our protection and respect. We really do 'stand on guard for thee'.

[cybercoma]

I believe the current Pledge reads:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands:

one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

I Pledge Allegiance - I Promise to be faithful and true (Promise my loyalty)

to the flag - to the emblem that stands for and represents

of the United States - all 50 states, each of them individual, and individually represented on the flag

of America - yet formed into a union of one Nation.

and to the Republic - And I also pledge my loyalty to the Government that is itself a Republic, a form of government where the people are sovereign,

for which it stands, - this government also being represented by the Flag to which I promise loyalty.

one Nation under God, - These 50 individual states are united as a single Republic under the Divine providence of God, "our most powerful resource" (according to the words of President Eisenhower)

indivisible, - and can not be separated. (This part of the original version of the pledge was written just 50 years after the beginning of the Civil War and demonstrates the unity sought in the years after that divisive period in our history)

with Liberty - The people of this Nation being afforded the freedom to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness",

and Justice - And each person entitled to be treated justly, fairly, and according to proper law and principle,

for All. - And these principles afforded to EVERY AMERICAN, regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or any other criteria. Just as the flag represents 50 individual states that can not be divided or separated, this Nation represents millions of people who can not be separated or divided.

1) Why should anyone pledge allegiance to the government? It is the government whose allegiance should be to the people.

2) If one does not believe in God, or any such supreme being, there is absolutely no reason for them to believe in that portion of the pledge either.

Pledging allegiance seems an awful lot like trying to control people's thoughts. It's really kinda scary when you think about it.

[cybercoma]

I misunderstood the interpretation, WestViking's last post makes a hell of a lot more sense than the breakdown.

[Slavik44]

Honestly, I don't see it as such a big deal...

If we want to take this a little further we cannot even determine what said individuals silence actually means. For all we know they could love america, but have some problem with the pledge itself. For instance before every meal my parents pray. I don't join in, that doesn't mean I don't like the food.

Hey, I can expand beyond that...look at the Oath of citizenship for Canada "From this day forward, I pledge my loyalty and allegiance to Canada and Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada. I promise to respect our country's rights and freedoms, to defend out democratic values, to faithfully observe our laws and fulfil my duties and obligations as a Canadian citizen." Honestly, I don't think I would want to pledge that...but my refusal would have nothing to do with hating Canada.

So who knows we are jumping to conclusions about people and all we know is the who, when, and where...with out the what and why. I think it would be best to refrain from kicking anyones teeth in. Besides assaulting someone for practicing one of the major principles of the country you are living in...might cause some problems with the whole justice part of the pledge....

[M.Dancer]

Points for whomever can reference.......

I plegleia neptum flagumm; to pec, liforstand.......

And.....

Plebmnista; norcom, forcom, perfectumum

[Guest American Woman]

1) Why should anyone pledge allegiance to the government? It is the government whose allegiance should be to the people.

2) If one does not believe in God, or any such supreme being, there is absolutely no reason for them to believe in that portion of the pledge either.

Pledging allegiance seems an awful lot like trying to control people's thoughts. It's really kinda scary when you think about it.

It's not a pledge to the government, it's a pledge to the nation, the country; and pledging allegiance to one's nation isn't "conrolling people's thoughts" since no one is forced to say it or forced to believe it or feel a certain way about the United States. I'm sure many people don't "pledge allegiance," and they've suffered no consequences. As for myself, I like pledging allegiance to my country. If I were Canadian, I'd feel the same way about pledging allegiance to Canada.

[WestViking]

1) Why should anyone pledge allegiance to the government? It is the government whose allegiance should be to the people.

Why not if it is your government? Politicians come to us for a mandate every so often. We choose who will represent us. If we are unhappy with the result we cannot just disengage and hope for the best.

2) If one does not believe in God, or any such supreme being, there is absolutely no reason for them to believe in that portion of the pledge either.

The majority of Americans claim to be Christian. Whether an individual American subscribes to any religious belief or none at all is irrelevant. It is still their nation, their government and their flag. Abstaining from the Pledge of Allegiance is a legal right; however abstaining is also the weakest response possible to perceived ills of the nation. America belongs to Americans and abstaining cannot bring about needed change.

Pledging allegiance seems an awful lot like trying to control people's thoughts. It's really kinda scary when you think about it.

On the contrary; taking ownership of your nation and the responsibilities that go with ownership is the means to work to its betterment. As I pointed out above, critics and dissenters are essential to a healthy democracy. Where in the Pledge do you see any requirement to accept the status quo? If you think your nation is headed in the wrong direction for the wrong reasons, it is not just your right, but your duty to speak up and solicit like-minded people to work with you and affect a change. The notion that the Pledge is blind acceptance of governance we know can be improved does not stand up under scrutiny. Many of us work for change because we care about our nation and cannot make improvements from the sidelines.