Did God create man?

[BC_chick]

"Man" created God.

"Man" created 'God'.

Touche! How did I miss that one?

Come to think of it, how did both of us miss this one?

"Man" `created` 'God'.

Oh, yet again!

[Electric Monk]

The traditional Triple O God, (Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent) has a much smaller probability of existence than an alien race with sufficiently advanced technology to appear "godlike" to us.

We don't have the information needed to draw those probabilities. We would have to know the exact chemical conditions and circumstances for the generation of carbon-based life in order to draw the probability of carbon-based life existing elsewhere, and we certainly can't begin to be able to draw probability parameters around the existence of God.

True, but we can infer some relative probabilities, I can say that when I roll a dozen dice at once the probability of them all showing sixes is a lot higher than them all balancing on one corner.

Don't we make determinations like this all the time?

[BC_chick]

But as it stands, I was given two choices and I picked one. I figured the people of this forum are intelligent enough to know the arguments for and against each one.

Now given that thought, do you believe we are alone in the universe?

I missed this post Albertan, sorry, didn't mean to ignore it.

Are we alone in the universe? Probably not.

Having said that, I have no proof of my belief, so I will not stand here and declare that others are idiots/immoral/heathens for not believing in something we cannot prove.... if that's where you were going with that.

[BornAlbertan]

Before this universe, what was there? Can you explain it? Can you fathom it? I can't. And so to can I not explain God. So until a person can explain that, I think people should merely respect each others beliefs.

I don't accept what I believe blindly...but I don't disbelieve something either because I can't fathom it. I question my faith daily...and everyday, I come back to the same beliefs. A blind faith is a deadly faith. If one can profess the knowledge that there is no God, but yet without certainty explain the origins of the universe, where is the credibility?

That said, this is probably the most respectful discussion on this topic I have seen in a long time online.

[Who's Doing What?]

The same argument you use for the existence of other beings can be used against your broad proclaimation that God doesn't exist. Especially the "arrogant" part. Imagine the arrogance of claiming that the vast majority of the people on this planet are merely "scared and uneducated." I can point out a dozen theologians right off the top of my head who are quite a bit more educated than you.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are an accident. A product of pure chance. Some people can't accept that reality and turn to religion for an explaination and a purpose.

Most people on this planet ARE scared or uneducated. Most people I know are scared of death. How convenient that there is a promised life after death for them to take solice in. There are also a huge number of people who are uneducated. How convenient again that the religous texts, after being interpreted by "qualified" priests/pastors etc ofcourse, offer answers to questions they would otherwise need to learn about science to explain.

You seriously think there is an all powerful being that has nothing better to do with their time than to create not only the human race, but the entire universe?

That this being Knows everything that will happen before it occurs?

Plans it even?

So if there is a god, who created him/her? Where did he/she come from?

If it is, as the bible says, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, just where did it come from. If it is the beginnning, how could it exist when there would be nothing before it to create it.

Sorry, but the time for Gods has passed.

[Who's Doing What?]

Ever see a picture of the Earth from space? Or even look at a loved one, and concentrate? Do you really think such things emerge randomly from the chaos of atoms and molecules?

Yes easily.

The only thing needed is time.

[BC_chick]

Before this universe, what was there? Can you explain it? Can you fathom it? I can't. And so to can I not explain God. So until a person can explain that, I think people should merely respect each others beliefs.

I don't accept what I believe blindly...but I don't disbelieve something either because I can't fathom it. I question my faith daily...and everyday, I come back to the same beliefs. A blind faith is a deadly faith. If one can profess the knowledge that there is no God, but yet without certainty explain the origins of the universe, where is the credibility?

I can't fathom it, but I don't find that void enough of a reason to believe in a Judeo-Christian version of Genesis.

As for respecting others' opinions - I can respect your opinion if you want to question the Big Bang theory, sure. But the people who want to take the Bible (or Torah or Koran) word-for-word in today's world - sorry, it's a little harder for me to respect that.

I guess what I'm trying to say here, is that God and religion are two different things, and I don't believe in using them interchangeably. As an agnostic, I can flirt with the idea of a creator, but there's so much we know now that disproves Biblical creationism. I have a hard time accepting the myths of Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, or any so-called prophets.

It's especially hard to respect the religionists when I see their absurd ideas used to trample on human rights.

That said, this is probably the most respectful discussion on this topic I have seen in a long time online.

This is a good forum. Even when we are disrespectful of each other, we're still head and shoulders above the other forums online. I agree.

[BornAlbertan]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are an accident. A product of pure chance. Some people can't accept that reality and turn to religion for an explaination and a purpose.

SOOOOOO....we are an accidental product of pure chance eh? Has science created self-reproducing life from scratch yet? NO! And to save you the trouble...and to show I am not "scared" here is a link...to something that is still bunk because it required existing cells.

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070607_mycoplasma.htm

Most people on this planet ARE scared or uneducated. Most people I know are scared of death. How convenient that there is a promised life after death for them to take solice in. There are also a huge number of people who are uneducated. How convenient again that the religous texts, after being interpreted by "qualified" priests/pastors etc ofcourse, offer answers to questions they would otherwise need to learn about science to explain.

You seem pretty theologically ignorant...or should I say "uneducated"?

You seriously think there is an all powerful being that has nothing better to do with their time than to create not only the human race, but the entire universe?

Uhhh...yes. You might enjoy masterbation...I enjoy full out sex. To each their own.

That this being Knows everything that will happen before it occurs?

Plans it even?

Nothing in the Bible says goes know everything BEFORE it will happen...but he does have plans. But humans also have free will. You have a wife? She has free will. How many times have your plans got f****ed up?

So if there is a god, who created him/her? Where did he/she come from?

You are the one with all the answers. You tell me.

If it is, as the bible says, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, just where did it come from. If it is the beginnning, how could it exist when there would be nothing before it to create it.

AHHHHH....now you are getting to what faith is all about. Before the big bang where was the universe and all the galaxies? You seem be comprehending the fact now that the origins of the universe, regardless of explanations, are beyond our comprehension and therefore exempt from valid ridicule and criticism.

Sorry, but the time for Gods has passed.

Touche. Seems you could use a touch of God in your life

[jbg]

Purely circumstantial evidence is, in general, not sufficient to convict for a capital crime.

Exactly!

And that's all the teleological argument is - circumstantial evidence.

I answered that in general, circumstantial evidence is admissible. In fact, extremely admissible. A small modicum of direct evidence may be needed for a capital conviction though I'm not sure. Please don't cut a crucial word out when quoting my response (that does not mean you need to re-quote long posts, but just make sure you get the jist of my response).

[jbg]

Sorry, but the time for Gods has passed.

Check the preamble for your Charter of Special, Arbitrary Rights and Such Freedoms as PM May Give on that one.

[Mad_Michael]

Sorry, but the time for Gods has passed.

Check the preamble for your Charter of Special, Arbitrary Rights and Such Freedoms as PM May Give on that one.

The preample of the Charter has no legal force all by itself. It is merely colourful verbage.

[jbg]

Sorry, but the time for Gods has passed.

Check the preamble for your Charter of Special, Arbitrary Rights and Such Freedoms as PM May Give on that one.

The preample of the Charter has no legal force all by itself. It is merely colourful verbage.

Colorful, maybe, but not colourful.

On the other hand, it expresses the country's underlying philosophy, as does ours, which starts out "we, the people...". Difference between bottom---^ and top down.

[Figleaf]

Before this universe, what was there? Can you explain it? Can you fathom it? I can't. And so to can I not explain God. So until a person can explain that, I think people should merely respect each others beliefs.

Okay, but let's put a little flesh on the bones of 'respect each others beliefs'.

Does respect mean we should allow religious beliefs to put children in a religious setting at risk, as say Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions? Does it mean we need to spend resources accomodating religious philosophies in what should be science classes? Does it mean needed social change must attend on traditions based on Beliefs? Does it mean we must sit mute in the face of prosletizers -- that their right to expression trumps ours?

[ScottSA]

The same argument you use for the existence of other beings can be used against your broad proclaimation that God doesn't exist. Especially the "arrogant" part. Imagine the arrogance of claiming that the vast majority of the people on this planet are merely "scared and uneducated." I can point out a dozen theologians right off the top of my head who are quite a bit more educated than you.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are an accident. A product of pure chance. Some people can't accept that reality and turn to religion for an explaination and a purpose.

I don't need to read any further to see the futility of arguing with the blind arrogance of dogmatic certainty.

[NovaScotian]

SOOOOOO....we are an accidental product of pure chance eh? Has science created self-reproducing life from scratch yet? NO! And to save you the trouble...and to show I am not "scared" here is a link...to something that is still bunk because it required existing cells.

Lets be truthful here. Science as we know it today is only about 400 years old. The Earth existed for hundreds of millions, perhaps a billion years before life arose. And "life" at this time was nothing more then DNA molecules that could only make crude copies of themselves. It then took another 3 billion years too reach the level of amoeba.

So to say "has science created a self-producing life form" is like asking a 6month old to write a 100 page theses on quantum mechanics.

[ScottSA]

SOOOOOO....we are an accidental product of pure chance eh? Has science created self-reproducing life from scratch yet? NO! And to save you the trouble...and to show I am not "scared" here is a link...to something that is still bunk because it required existing cells.

Lets be truthful here. Science as we know it today is only about 400 years old. The Earth existed for hundreds of millions, perhaps a billion years before life arose. And "life" at this time was nothing more then DNA molecules that could only make crude copies of themselves. It then took another 3 billion years too reach the level of amoeba.

So to say "has science created a self-producing life form" is like asking a 6month old to write a 100 page theses on quantum mechanics.

Yet you would ask us to believe that such an embryonic set of research criteria contains the potential to answer all? That's an article of pure faith.

[AndrewL]

Man did create god, and then killed him. God is dead. (although looking at the world today that is hard to believe).

Andrew

[BC_chick]

I answered that in general, circumstantial evidence is admissible. In fact, extremely admissible. A small modicum of direct evidence may be needed for a capital conviction though I'm not sure.

I did not ask whether or not circumstantial evidence is admissible, I asked whether or not it's "proof" of something. If you recall, I was implying that the marvel of nature is not proof of God.

[Who's Doing What?]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are an accident. A product of pure chance. Some people can't accept that reality and turn to religion for an explaination and a purpose.

SOOOOOO....we are an accidental product of pure chance eh? Has science created self-reproducing life from scratch yet? NO! And to save you the trouble...and to show I am not "scared" here is a link...to something that is still bunk because it required existing cells.

Yes we are an accident. A product of several random, chance occurances over billions of years. So how is Science in the last 200 years or so supposed to do something that took potenially billions of years for nature to accomplish?

People are scared. They have been scared of death, or the unknown, since we became self aware. Religion is a nice little package that allows us to feel good about ourselves and relieve some of the worry of from our existance.

Most people on this planet ARE scared or uneducated. Most people I know are scared of death. How convenient that there is a promised life after death for them to take solice in. There are also a huge number of people who are uneducated. How convenient again that the religous texts, after being interpreted by "qualified" priests/pastors etc ofcourse, offer answers to questions they would otherwise need to learn about science to explain.

You seem pretty theologically ignorant...or should I say "uneducated"?

I was brought up christian. Read the bible, front to back, twice on my own. Some chapters I have read closer to 10 or 12 times. I used to be a serious believer.

I read Paramahansa Yoganada and Carlos Castenada, as well as books on bhuddhism, meditation and even one or two dealing with the "devil". I have practiced what was written in the Celestine Prophecy, with some success.

Although by no means a top expert, I am pretty far from "uneducated" when it comes to theological matters.

You seriously think there is an all powerful being that has nothing better to do with their time than to create not only the human race, but the entire universe?

Uhhh...yes. You might enjoy masterbation...I enjoy full out sex. To each their own.

Nice. I doubt you have much, if any sex, talking like that. What are you still in highschool?

That this being Knows everything that will happen before it occurs?

Plans it even?

Nothing in the Bible says goes know everything BEFORE it will happen...but he does have plans. But humans also have free will. You have a wife? She has free will. How many times have your plans got f****ed up?

LMAO

You contradict yourself in your own statement. God deosn't know what will happen before it does, but he has everything planned. LMAO

This is the type of hypocrisy which perverts religions.

God doesn't know everything, but it is all planned out. Sounds like the opposite sides of the same coin to me.

If he has it planned and his plans come true then does he not already know what is going to happen?

How can he plan for something 1000 years ahead if he doesn't already know what will happen?

The Bible already says what will happen. Or have they not gotten to the Book of Revelations in Sunday school yet?

So if there is a god, who created him/her? Where did he/she come from?

You are the one with all the answers. You tell me.

LMAO

If you have so much faith, ask your god.

If it is, as the bible says, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, just where did it come from. If it is the beginnning, how could it exist when there would be nothing before it to create it.

AHHHHH....now you are getting to what faith is all about. Before the big bang where was the universe and all the galaxies? You seem be comprehending the fact now that the origins of the universe, regardless of explanations, are beyond our comprehension and therefore exempt from valid ridicule and criticism.

Everything we know as the universe was compressed into a single point by gravity, until critical mass was reached.

It would appear that it is a repeating cycle as blackholes become larger and more massive they will eventually absorb each other until all that is left is one massive black hole which will in turn collapse on itself until critical mass is reached again and the whole process starts over.

Sorry, but the time for Gods has passed.

Touche. Seems you could use a touch of God in your life

Had some once. Then I started to think for myself.

[Who's Doing What?]

The same argument you use for the existence of other beings can be used against your broad proclaimation that God doesn't exist. Especially the "arrogant" part. Imagine the arrogance of claiming that the vast majority of the people on this planet are merely "scared and uneducated." I can point out a dozen theologians right off the top of my head who are quite a bit more educated than you.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are an accident. A product of pure chance. Some people can't accept that reality and turn to religion for an explaination and a purpose.

I don't need to read any further to see the futility of arguing with the blind arrogance of dogmatic certainty.

That was easy.

[Who's Doing What?]

Sorry, but the time for Gods has passed.

Check the preamble for your Charter of Special, Arbitrary Rights and Such Freedoms as PM May Give on that one.

Just becauuse I think worshipping a god is a waste of time doesn't mean I am going to try and stop you from doing it.

[Guest American Woman]

You seriously think there is an all powerful being that has nothing better to do with their time than to create not only the human race, but the entire universe?

"Nothing better to do with their time than to create ... the human race [and] the entire universe"

You make it sound as if creating the human race and entire universe is an insignificant waste of time. What do you think would be more worthwhile to do with one's time?

[Who's Doing What?]

You make it sound as if creating the human race and entire universe is an insignificant waste of time. What do you think would be more worthwhile to do with one's time?

Not being omnipotent I wouldn't know what other options I have at my disposal.

[BC_chick]

"Nothing better to do with their time than to create ... the human race [and] the entire universe"

You make it sound as if creating the human race and entire universe is an insignificant waste of time. What do you think would be more worthwhile to do with one's time?

Well, how about a creating a functional human race that doesn't kill in "His" name.... for one?

[Guest American Woman]

Well, how about a creating a functional human race that doesn't kill in "His" name.... for one?

God didn't 'create people to kill in His name.' That's people's doing.