Khadr should make us ashamed to be Canadian

[GostHacked]

No, I have no problem comprehending what you said; you seem to be the one having trouble. I'm still wondering why you say that he was "forced" to go to Afghanistan.

If one does not have a choice, you are forced to go.

I went where my parents went because we were a family; "forced" was never a feeling that I had at 8 regarding how I felt about being with them.

As a kid I was forced to go with my parents to functions I did not want to attend. I did not have a choice in the matter, I was forced to go.

Furthermore, again, you realize that he was 15, almost 16, when he was captured, right?

Yes, captured at 15, brought over when he was 10, and still sitting in Gitmo.

What one feels at 8 generally isn't the same as what one feels at 15/almost 16 - and what one does at 8 is hardly the same as what one does at 15/almost 16.

Thank you Mrs. Obvious. However it was when he was 8-10 that he was brought over to Afghanistan. Where the indoctrination started (or did it start earlier .. still that falls on the parents, both of them) ... and I will conclude he was forced to go, otherwise he might still be sitting in an apartment in Toronto playing video games.

Was Omar forced to go to Afghanistan? That would be key here.

The point that you're struggling to make, the picture you're struggling to paint, doesn't hold water.

Even if Omar was forced to go to Afghanistan at 15, his parents are the ones who should be taking the heat in forcing him to go. My argument holds all the water ... for now.

[DogOnPorch]

You and others are assuming Omar hated his father. Were you 'forced' to do things with your father or were you eager to join in? Forced to go fishing, for example.

[Guest American Woman]

If one does not have a choice, you are forced to go.

Not necessarily true at all. I had no choice but to live with my parents when I was 8 (or 10), yet I was not by any means "forced" to. I wanted to. Were you forced to live with your parents against your will?

As a kid I was forced to go with my parents to functions I did not want to attend. I did not have a choice in the matter, I was forced to go.

Now you're getting to the crux of the matter - "forced" = "not want[ing] to." So I'll ask again. Where are you getting the impression that Omar was forced to do what he did; that he did not want to?

Yes, captured at 15, brought over when he was 10, and still sitting in Gitmo.

He was back and forth to Canada. The relevant part here is captured at 15, less than two months away from 16 - the legal age to join the Reserves in Canada with parental consent. Hardly a "child soldier" in those terms.

Thank you Mrs. Obvious.

Do you have anger control issues? Or are you simply unable to engage in civil discussion? Obviously, since you kept going on about his being 8, as if that had some bearing on his actions at 15/almost 16, I felt it necessary to point out that kids at 8 and 10 think and behave differently than they do at 15/almost 16. I guess you don't like your point being shot down, so you turn to insults. Too bad it doesn't do anything to make your point any more valid.

However it was when he was 8-10 that he was brought over to Afghanistan. Where the indoctrination started (or did it start earlier .. still that falls on the parents, both of them) ... and I will conclude he was forced to go, otherwise he might still be sitting in an apartment in Toronto playing video games.

So he was either forced to go - or he would still be in Toronto? Allow me to once again point out the obvious - there's a third scenario - he could have been there because he WANTED to be there. I've read nothing to indicate that that's not the case. If you have, please provide your source. If not, you are doing nothing but purely speculating in order to present things the way you want it to be.

Was Omar forced to go to Afghanistan? That would be key here.

Ummm. You said he was. Good to see that you now realize you haven't a clue. Again, nothing I've read indicates that he was. He went to schools with other children in attendance, children who didn't become terrorists. So was he "indoctrinated" as a child? I'm not so sure. I read that his "training" occurred later - not too long before his capture and murder charge. And I've read nothing to indicate that he was forced to be there, forced to do what he did, regretted it, wished he had grown up in Canada. In other words, nothing to indicate that he was forced.

Even if Omar was forced to go to Afghanistan at 15, his parents are the ones who should be taking the heat in forcing him to go. My argument holds all the water ... for now.

Ok. One. more. time. What makes you believe that he was forced?? You go on and on as you provide nothing, absolutely nothing, in the way of evidence that he was forced. And again. He was less than 2 months away from his 16th birthday, the legal age for Canadians to join the Reserves with parental consent.

Your argument holds no water at all. You have absolutely nothing to base your "he was forced" argument on - other than your wishes.

[DogOnPorch]

At age 15 I was totally up to no good...lol.

[eyeball]

Now you're getting to the crux of the matter - "forced" = "not want[ing] to." So I'll ask again. Where are you getting the impression that Omar was forced to do what he did; that he did not want to?

Even if he wanted to go so what, his legal capacity to make that decision was not in his hands it was in his parents.

If your minor daughter said she wanted to take the family car and drive down the highway drunk and you said fine go right ahead who's sorry ass do you think should and would be hauled into court?

[bush_cheney2004]

At age 15 I was totally up to no good...lol.

Yea..at that age, I couldn't decide if I should join the Viet Cong or the Weather Underground!

Edited May 10, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

kids at 8 and 10 think and behave differently than they do at 15/almost 16.

If kids are encouraged to behave like criminals starting at age 8, people would normally expect them to behave really differently at 10, 12 or 15 and even older without some sort of treatment that leans far more towards rehabilitation than punishment.

In this case however...Omar Khadr ran afoul of a bunch of venal amoral politicians and officials who were clearly raised up no better than the millions of people who now defend their action and inaction. Khadr's maltreatment while Canada stood by and did nothing has made me ashamed of being a Canadian for some time, and now the absolutely heinous lack of compassion for this kid displayed by the people who stand arrayed against him are starting to make me ashamed of being a human being.

I could never ever have dreamed Canada could fall so far so fast. Never mind racing to the bottom we're in free fall and approaching terminal velocity.

[Signals.Cpl]

If kids are encouraged to behave like criminals starting at age 8, people would normally expect them to behave really differently at 10, 12 or 15 and even older without some sort of treatment that leans far more towards rehabilitation than punishment.

In this case however...Omar Khadr ran afoul of a bunch of venal amoral politicians and officials who were clearly raised up no better than the millions of people who now defend their action and inaction. Khadr's maltreatment while Canada stood by and did nothing has made me ashamed of being a Canadian for some time, and now the absolutely heinous lack of compassion for this kid displayed by the people who stand arrayed against him are starting to make me ashamed of being a human being.

I could never ever have dreamed Canada could fall so far so fast. Never mind racing to the bottom we're in free fall and approaching terminal velocity.

You can argue all you want about how badly Canada treated Khadr, but when his whole family is involved with terrorism and his brother was injured fighting our allies just to come to Canada and be treated by our tax dollars I find that disgusting. He might have been forced to go to Afghanistan, thats not the issue, the issue is him quite willingly killing a soldier from our closest ally. You may be ashamed to be Canadian, but I personally see their commitment to Canada as non existent and thus Canada should see no need to commit to them in any way shape or form. I think Canada should revoke his citizenship and that of his entire immediate family and ship them all to Afghanistan Pakistan or any other sh*twhole that is willing to take them . Leave Khadr at the mercy of the United States as it was their citizen killed by a little piece of garbage. A lot of people support the idea to bring Khadr "home" but no one is offering him their house as I don't want him living anywhere near my family or friends.

[g_bambino]

This discussion really had nowhere else to go once Ottawa ordered that any and all official talk of Omar's minor status be clawed back way at the beginning of this debacle and started evoking images of a scary bearded adult instead.

I didn't say there weren't propagandists on both sides. The discussion could go somewhere in between the two extremes.

[g_bambino]

As a kid I was forced to go with my parents to functions I did not want to attend. I did not have a choice in the matter, I was forced to go.

By this analogy, you're assuming Omar did not want to go.

[GostHacked]

By this analogy, you're assuming Omar did not want to go.

I said it was an assumption a few pages ago. But thanks for keeping up.

[jacee]

You can argue all you want about how badly Canada treated Khadr, but when his whole family is involved with terrorism and his brother was injured fighting our allies just to come to Canada and be treated by our tax dollars I find that disgusting. He might have been forced to go to Afghanistan, thats not the issue, the issue is him quite willingly killing a soldier from our closest ally.

Child soldiers do not have 'free will'.

http://www.irinnews.org/InDepthMain.aspx?InDepthId=24&ReportId=66989&Country=Yes

A field assessment conducted by UNICEF earlier this year [2003] throughout Afghanistan indicated that there were at least 8,000 children currently under arms. Many remain in the pay of regional warlords, who stil dominate Afghan life outside the capital Kabul.

Omar was only one of thousands.

Do we demonize all of them?

Edited May 10, 2012 by jacee

[Signals.Cpl]

Child soldiers do not have 'free will'.

http://www.irinnews.org/InDepthMain.aspx?InDepthId=24&ReportId=66989&Country=Yes

A field assessment conducted by UNICEF earlier this year [2003] throughout Afghanistan indicated that there were at least 8,000 children currently under arms. Many remain in the pay of regional warlords, who stil dominate Afghan life outside the capital Kabul.

Omar was only one of thousands.

Do we demonize all of them?

You're kidding right? Child soldier? He moved from one side of the world to the other to fight Americans. You can't compare a Canadian coming from Canada to fight for the Taliban the same as a kid with a gun to his/her head and told to fight. He made the choice to kill an American Soldier and wound a number of others and I think he should be held responsible for that. If he had chosen to surrender and Identify himself as a Canadian the Americans would have most likely viewed him in a different light, as a child who didn't want to be there and thus surrendered because he knew his actions were wrong but he chose to kill and maim American on his own free will. Would it be different if he were captured on his 18th birthday?

[guyser]

You may be ashamed to be Canadian, but I personally see their commitment to Canada as non existent and thus Canada should see no need to commit to them in any way shape or form. I think Canada should revoke his citizenship and that of his entire immediate family and ship them all to Afghanistan Pakistan or any other sh*twhole that is willing to take them . Leave Khadr at the mercy of the United States as it was their citizen killed by a little piece of garbage. A lot of people support the idea to bring Khadr "home" but no one is offering him their house as I don't want him living anywhere near my family or friends.

While understandable , the simple fact is he is a canadian citizen and we are stuck with him.

The Yanks have every right to have him shipped home and to be done with him.He is our problem,and no matter what one thinks or feels, we have no choice but to bring him back.

[Signals.Cpl]

While understandable , the simple fact is he is a canadian citizen and we are stuck with him.

The Yanks have every right to have him shipped home and to be done with him.He is our problem,and no matter what one thinks or feels, we have no choice but to bring him back.

Ok, I understand that, but we should by no means make him out to be a victim. He is a cold blooded killer and should be treated and viewed as such.

[GostHacked]

Ok, I understand that, but we should by no means make him out to be a victim. He is a cold blooded killer and should be treated and viewed as such.

Much of that is still speculation as he was found under a pile of rubble, which brings into question the ability to take out US service men some yards away.

[Signals.Cpl]

Much of that is still speculation as he was found under a pile of rubble, which brings into question the ability to take out US service men some yards away.

He was apparently shot twice in the back as he sat by wall. I don't know, to me even if he were proven 100% innocent of the US soldiers death, how many people did he kill by building IEDs? The fact is that if an American working for the Taliban and/or al-Qaeda made IED's, threw grenades or simply shot Canadian Soldiers I would assume we would want punishment for that. What if he had killed 2 or 3 or 4 Canadian Soldiers with an IED or a grenade?

[g_bambino]

I said it was an assumption a few pages ago...

Which undermines your whole argument. Well done.

[GostHacked]

Which undermines your whole argument. Well done.

So any time an assumption is made (as is the assumption that Omar killed those servicemen) does that mean their whole argument is undermined? If so, what does that say for this judicial process that Omar is being tried under? Because if it was a clear cut case, then Omar would have been tried and convicted years ago, but instead this process has taken 7+ years because of speculation in what actually took place.

I did not hide the fact it was an assumption, even after American Woman attempted to grill me on that matter. An argument can be based on assumption. Lawyers do that ALL THE TIME, based on evidence provided, and yet that assumption could still be proven wrong.

Try again.

Edited May 10, 2012 by GostHacked

[Guest American Woman]

So any time an assumption is made (as is the assumption that Omar killed those servicemen) does that mean their whole argument is undermined?

It does if the assumption isn't based on anything at all other than the imagination of the one making the assumption. There's evidence that Omar killed the soldier in question, including his confession, a hearing, interviews, etc. so it's a bit more than an "assumption" - while your assumption is not based on any evidence.

I did not hide the fact it was an assumption, even after American Woman attempted to grill me on that matter.

American Woman is still trying to get an answer from you as to what evidence your assumption is based on. I see once again there is none forthcoming.

An argument can be based on assumption. Lawyers do that ALL THE TIME, based on evidence provided, and yet that assumption could still be proven wrong.

The key words there are "evidence provided." I'm still waiting for you to provide some.

Try again.

Try providing evidence for your assumption. So far you've provided none - which does mean your whole argument is undermined.

[g_bambino]

An argument can be based on assumption.

An argument based on assumption is nowhere near as strong as one based on fact. That's why, until you admitted you were operating on an assumption, you spoke as though you were expressing fact.

Try again.

I don't need to. You losing once is enough.

[ed.: +]

Edited May 10, 2012 by g_bambino

[jbg]

He was 8 when he was taken to Afghanistan. That is what I am basing that on, not when he was captured.

Omar was in Toronto when he was 8 years old. He was moved to Afghanistan when he was about 10, but still travelled back to Canada periodically. He seems to have only been really thrown into the Al Qaeda organisation (as in, moved away from the care of his mother and went on his own to Afghanistan as a translator with Abu Laith al-Libi) when he was around 13 or 14.

[ed.: punct.]

I really don't think it matters if Omar was 8 or 10 .. was it his choice to go? That is the precedent I am try to set here.

For Christ's sake, he was a fighter who hated the West and was trying to kill Westerners. What difference should it make to the Royal Canadian Army what his psychological condition was?

[GostHacked]

An argument based on assumption is nowhere near as strong as one based on fact.

Thank you Mr. Obvious.

That's why, until you admitted you were operating on an assumption, you spoke as though you were expressing fact.

The admission about my assumption was made when I made that reply. I made no attempt to hide the assumption. But if that adds a couple more pages of 'debate' to this thread, then my job is done.

I don't need to. You losing once is enough.

[ed.: +]

There was nothing to lose on my end.

[GostHacked]

One more time for those who still can't quite figure it out.

American Woman asked what I based my assumption that Omar was brought to Afghanistan against his will. I said because he was 8 (turns out I was wrong and he went at 10)... Omar at 10, if he did make the decision to go to Afghanistan, legally it's up to his parents... correct? He could not just go on his own, correct?

Several pages later and people are still trying to make an argument out of this when it was an assumption. Most people would say .'hmm I guess that would be a possibility' and then debate the possibility of it... but no, I get treated like a retard because people can't think for themselves. Happens all the time here and it's getting annoying. And it's the usual suspects who continually do this.

1 - I made no attempt to hide the assumption ... I guess that is the only point I need to make here. But we can go on for a few more pages if that suits all of you.

Carry it away guys and gals.

Edited May 11, 2012 by GostHacked

[eyeball]

I didn't say there weren't propagandists on both sides. The discussion could go somewhere in between the two extremes.

Except the propaganda from your side is more akin to defamation which is another war crime when it's perpetrated against a prisoner of war. The discussion likely will continue, it started in Ottawa amongst government officials when the decision to "claw back on the fact that he is a minor" was made and it will likely end in a supreme court. I expect the din and the divisiveness between the two extremes outside the court room to get a lot louder too.

I wonder if it will finally bring to a head the hatred so many Canadians also have for our Charter and Supreme Court?