Religious Experiance and the Mind

[M.Dancer]

Rudi Affolter and Gwen Tighe have both experienced strong religious visions. He is an atheist; she a Christian. He thought he had died; she thought she had given birth to Jesus. Both have temporal lobe epilepsy.

Like other forms of epilepsy, the condition causes fitting but it is also associated with religious hallucinations. Research into why people like Rudi and Gwen saw what they did has opened up a whole field of brain science: neurotheology.

The connection between the temporal lobes of the brain and religious feeling has led one Canadian scientist to try stimulating them. (They are near your ears.) 80% of Dr Michael Persinger's experimental subjects report that an artificial magnetic field focused on those brain areas gives them a feeling of 'not being alone'. Some of them describe it as a religious sensation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

Evolutionary Neurotheology and the Varieties of Religious Experience

One has to ask, why in Darwin's name would the feeling of God be hard wired in our brains?

Plenty of research and discusion on the subject found here........

http://dmoz.org/Science/Social_Sciences/Ps.../Neurotheology/

[cybercoma]

If hallucinations are reality, then I feel sorry for those who have bad acid trips.

[Riverwind]

One has to ask, why in Darwin's name would the feeling of God be hard wired in our brains?

Because belief in a higher power enhances the survival of the people who believe in one. Every human believes in some abstract concept that can be called a higher power - even atheists. (Most atheists place there faith in humanity or the scientific method).

[gc1765]

This is a much more appropriate thread, so I'll repeat what I said in another thread...

There is no question that the vast majority of societies have some sort of religious beliefs. The question is why? I don't know the answer, though my guess would be that it's not believing in a higher power that allows our species to survive. More likely, it's our tendency to be curious/ponder/think/ask questions/try-to-explain-things that allows our species to survive, and belief in a higher power is a by-product of our curiousity.

[gc1765]

also continued from the other thread...

A person who did not have such a belief would not sacrifice themselves for others. Altruism is a an important human trait and I believe it is connected to the tendency to believe in a higher power.

Note that a 'higher power' is not always a deity. The higher power for a secular humanist is the abstract concept of 'humanity'.

Of course they will. Evolution does not only work on an individual level, it also works on the level of the species. If a person think that their chances of saving someone else are better than the chances of them dying in the process, the species will be better of if that person takes the risk. Thus, it is possible to select for this trait.

[Riverwind]

Of course they will. Evolution does not only work on an individual level, it also works on the level of the species. If a person think that their chances of saving someone else are better than the chances of them dying in the process, the species will be better of if that person takes the risk. Thus, it is possible to select for this trait.

You are talking about the macroscopic result (self-sacrifice). I am claiming that beleif in a higher power is the mechanism that produces the macroscopic result.

[gc1765]

You are talking about the macroscopic result (self-sacrifice). I am claiming that beleif in a higher power is the mechanism that produces the macroscopic result.

I don't understand. I am claiming that evolution is the mechanism that produces altruism.

[Riverwind]

You are talking about the macroscopic result (self-sacrifice). I am claiming that belief in a higher power is the mechanism that produces the macroscopic result.

I don't understand. I am claiming that evolution is the mechanism that produces altruism.

Lets put it another way. Lets say we both agree that a snowshoe hare that can change its fur from brown to white in the winter is better able to survive. However, making that observation does not explain the mechanism that hare uses to change its colour.

Evolution is not a mechanism in itself - it simply selects biological mechanisms that produce the best results. Evolution selected hares which developed the ability to change their fur colour.

Belief in a higher power is one psychological mechanism that creates altruism in humans and evolution has selected for that trait.

[gc1765]

Lets put it another way. Lets say we both agree that a snowshoe hare that can change its fur from brown to white in the winter is better able to survive. However, making that observation does not explain the mechanism that hare uses to change its colour.

Evolution is not magic. The hare colour will not change unless there is some physiological mechanism that causes it to change.

Belief in a higher power is one psychological mechanism that creates altruism in humans and evolution has selected for that trait.

Most, if not all, changes are random mutations.

But, using your example, what is the mechanism for how a person believes in a higher power? Simply believing in a higher power does not change your genes, so it must go the other way around. There must be some mechanism that produces the genes that causes a person to believe in a higher power. What is that mechanism?

[Riverwind]

But, using your example, what is the mechanism for how a person believes in a higher power?

Language learning is hardwired in our genes. So is the tendency to believe in a higher power. Both were likely the result of random mutations over time that were selected because people with these mutations worked better together in groups.

There must be some mechanism that produces the genes that causes a person to believe in a higher power. What is that mechanism?

What mechanism causes dreams? I don't really know myself. I am simply claiming that humans have a genetic predisposition to believe in higher power.

Please keep in mind that the we are talking about the 'belief' not the fact. The fact that people are hard wired to believe in higher power does not mean there is actually a higher power. However, it does mean that believing in a higher power is part of our nature.

[gc1765]

Both were likely the result of random mutations over time that were selected because people with these mutations worked better together in groups.

So, why is a belief in a higher power necessary for a person to be altruistic? Why can't random mutations over time produce the trait of altruism and that could be selected for (without the need for belief in a higher power)?

What mechanism causes dreams? I don't really know myself. I am simply claiming that humans have a genetic predisposition to believe in higher power.

Good question. I can't think of any reason why dreams would enhance our survival. Perhaps, as I was saying earlier, it is a by-product of some other trait (for example, the ability to think) just as, IMO, belief in a higher power is a by-product of our evolution. Going off-topic for a second, this is the reason, IMO, that homosexuality (or masturbation) can be genetic. Homosexuals (or people who masturbate) are not more likely to produce offspring. However, an increased libido is more likely to produce offspring and masturbation is certainly a by-product of our libido.

[Riverwind]

So, why is a belief in a higher power necessary for a person to be altruistic? Why can't random mutations over time produce the trait of altruism and that could be selected for (without the need for belief in a higher power)?

I am looking at the empirical evidence which shows that 80%+ of the world population believes in a higher power. I am suggesting that people who believe in a higher power are more likely to be altruistic which means that the trait would be selected for by evolution.

That statement does mean that belief in a higher power is the only way to produce altruism.

Good question. I can't think of any reason why dreams would enhance our survival. Perhaps, as I was saying earlier, it is a by-product of some other trait (for example, the ability to think) just as, IMO, belief in a higher power is a by-product of our evolution.

There are many traits which are by products of other traits. The gene for cystic fibrosis is critical to our immune system. The gene(s) that create the obsessions necessary to excel also create alcohol and drug addictions.

We cannot ever know for sure whether which is the cause and which is the effect. However, I think belief in a higher power is part of human nature that has good and bad aspects.

[gc1765]

I am looking at the empirical evidence which shows that 80%+ of the world population believes in a higher power. I am suggesting that people who believe in a higher power are more likely to be altruistic which means that the trait would be selected for by evolution.

True, but I am suggesting that the two traits could be independent of each other.

Altruism, the result of random mutations, could be selected for through evolution.

Belief in a higher power, the by-product of our need to understand the world around us, could still be found in 80+% of the world's population.

Not that it's possible to ever prove which one of us is correct...

[Riverwind]

Not that it's possible to ever prove which one of us is correct...

An interesting discussion never the less.

Ultimately, any society needs to have a universally accepted ethical code. I feel it is necessary to accept that different people will use different belief systems to develop their personal ethical code and we have to accommodate these different beliefs systems as long as it is possible to find common ground.

It is impossible to find common ground if someone takes the position that their belief system is the absolute truth and that all others are not worthy of respect or consideration. The article that started these threads was a call for mutual respect and common ground.

[gc1765]

An interesting discussion never the less.

Ultimately, any society needs to have a universally accepted ethical code. I feel it is necessary to accept that different people will use different belief systems to develop their personal ethical code and we have to accommodate these different beliefs systems as long as it is possible to find common ground.

It is impossible to find common ground if someone takes the position that their belief system is the absolute truth and that all others are not worthy of respect or consideration. The article that started these threads was a call for mutual respect and common ground.

Well, in the interest of mutual respect and common ground, I can agree to that much.

Thanks for the discussion. Very interesting indeed.

[BC_chick]

This is a much more appropriate thread, so I'll repeat what I said in another thread...

There is no question that the vast majority of societies have some sort of religious beliefs. The question is why? I don't know the answer, though my guess would be that it's not believing in a higher power that allows our species to survive. More likely, it's our tendency to be curious/ponder/think/ask questions/try-to-explain-things that allows our species to survive, and belief in a higher power is a by-product of our curiousity.

The fear of death, the self-consciousness that requires answers - many reasons "why" all (not the vast majority) societies have some sort of religious belief. It's no coincidence that the human animal began having spiritual sentiments around 25,000 years ago - that was also the beginning of self-consciousness.

[cybercoma]

You are talking about the macroscopic result (self-sacrifice). I am claiming that belief in a higher power is the mechanism that produces the macroscopic result.

I don't understand. I am claiming that evolution is the mechanism that produces altruism.

Lets put it another way. Lets say we both agree that a snowshoe hare that can change its fur from brown to white in the winter is better able to survive. However, making that observation does not explain the mechanism that hare uses to change its colour.

Evolution is not a mechanism in itself - it simply selects biological mechanisms that produce the best results. Evolution selected hares which developed the ability to change their fur colour.

Belief in a higher power is one psychological mechanism that creates altruism in humans and evolution has selected for that trait.

God in the gaps. We don't know what started it, so it must be God. You don't have to prove the existence of a God because all that's required is faith. In time, with new scientific discovery, God has been pushed into a progressively smaller and smaller gap.

[cybercoma]

But, using your example, what is the mechanism for how a person believes in a higher power?

Language learning is hardwired in our genes. So is the tendency to believe in a higher power. Both were likely the result of random mutations over time that were selected because people with these mutations worked better together in groups.

There must be some mechanism that produces the genes that causes a person to believe in a higher power. What is that mechanism?

What mechanism causes dreams? I don't really know myself. I am simply claiming that humans have a genetic predisposition to believe in higher power.

Please keep in mind that the we are talking about the 'belief' not the fact. The fact that people are hard wired to believe in higher power does not mean there is actually a higher power. However, it does mean that believing in a higher power is part of our nature.

You're right, but so far from the point that you're arguing for atheism now.

[cybercoma]

After reading this thread I wonder if anyone here knows of Rawls Linguistic Analogy that suggests moral code is hardwired on the subconscious level regardless of religious belief. A study was done on this at harvard and the results are rather interesting.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~mnkylab/public...veRawslChpt.pdf

It would appear that atheists are no less moral than those with religious convictions, which suggests that morality is derived from somewhere else.

[Figleaf]

Because belief in a higher power enhances the survival of the people who believe in one.

What evidence do you think you have for that whopper? For example, please explain how belief in a higher power helped accused witches survive in the 1500's.

Every human believes in some abstract concept that can be called a higher power - even atheists.

No, they don't.

(Most atheists place there faith in humanity or the scientific method).

Those are not 'higher powers'.

Riverwind, it using your own private language does not help make your positions any more sound.

Belief in a higher power is one psychological mechanism that creates altruism in humans and evolution has selected for that trait.

I don't believe your assertion is true. Please demonstrate (if you can) that belief in a higher power is a requirement of altruism.

[M.Dancer]

Because belief in a higher power enhances the survival of the people who believe in one.

What evidence do you think you have for that whopper? For example, please explain how belief in a higher power helped accused witches survive in the 1500's.

Talk about a non sequitor......Given that figleaf is obvious not an idiot, what do we ascribe this kind of garbage to?

Nevermind,

Religious People Live Longer Than Nonbelievers

WebMD Medical NewsReviewed by Martin F. DownsAug. 9, 2000 -- Religion appears to soothe the body as well as the soul, as people who are highly religious tend to live longer than others, a review of more than 40 scientific studies has found.

In fact, overall, the people who were most involved in their religions were 29% more likely to be alive when the various studies were completed than were their nonreligious counterparts.

http://www.webmd.com/news/20000809/religio...an-nonbelievers

[M.Dancer]

If hallucinations are reality, then I feel sorry for those who have bad acid trips.

What strikes me about this glib answer is how misguided it is. The fact is most people can claim a religious experiance. They don't usually take the form of visions or hallucinations, and they are just a real as many other experiances.

The fact that the experiance resides in the brain does not prove or disprove its reality.

[cybercoma]

God has been reduced to a thought, rather than an actual living being. I bow humbly before the sheer awesomeness of God... the idea.

[M.Dancer]

God has been reduced to a thought, rather than an actual living being. I bow humbly before the sheer awesomeness of God... the idea.

In your ignorant smugness you are about 2000 years out of date. John describes God as Logos..the word.

Of course God is an idea. So is Canada. So is love and hate. They are ideas and emotions to. They are also physically felt.....

Is your position now that ideas can't be real?

[cybercoma]

God is an idea.

Ideas are real.

God must then be real, right?

I'm having an idea about your mom right now, if it were real... I'd be your daddy.