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10 Things Christians and Atheists Can and Must Agree On....


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To take an example, a person who feels he has had a full life with little more joy to come, might quite LOGICALLY decide if forced into a situation to sacrifice his life to ensure the prospect of life for younger people.
Why should that person decide to do such as thing unless that person had some belief in the greater worth of humanity? A religion is a belief system that may or may not involve a deity. Your obession with equating religion with some Judeo-Christian like god is getting tiresome.
There is no need to drag any notion of a 'higher power'
Only because you are being deliberately obtuse. You have admitted that you believe in unprovable abstract concepts that are indistinguishable from a belief in a deity yet you insist that your belief system is some how different from a belief system that involves a deity? You are contradicting yourself.
If you call Buddhism a religion then you must call Atheism a religion.
Bunk.*
You are not making your case. Buddhists do not believe in a deity - they believe in achieving enlightenment via lifestyle choices. Atheists worship the idea that there is no deity. IMO atheists are more religious than Buddhists.
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Riverwind, why will you not concede to Figleaf? You're being bludgeoned with logic.
I see more denial than logic. Figleaf can't seem to accept the idea that his own belief system is just as arbitrary and intangible as the belief system held by any theist. In fact, he is reacting much like a theist who is confronted with someone arguing that there is no God.
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Here's most of number 6 from the original link, and I think atheists need to live and let live:

Cyberpunk author Neal Stephenson wrote in one of his books - and this was probably just moments before the character was split in half by a robot weilding a samurai sword - that the only real sign of intelligence was the ability to detect subtlety.

Anybody can memorize facts. But you remain a clumsy, intellectual oaf of a person as long as you keep looking for sheer black and white in every situation. That's what's so frustrating about politics, the way everybody wants to paint the two parties as angels vs. devils. And if you just said to yourself, "Yeah! Those evil ________ are always trying to polarize us that way!" then, guess what, you just did the same thing.

So please, please, please, when we get into these atheist vs. Christian arguments, can the atheists stop acting like Christians want to abolish all science and live in grass huts? Just because some Christians reject the science on evolution, doesn't mean they reject all science.

I mean, give me a break. America has been full of Christians since the day we invaded it, and has been a scientific and technological freaking superpower. So please stop waving your arms and warning that if Christians get their way, we'll all be sacrificing virgins on altars and replacing surgeons with priests.

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I mean, give me a break. America has been full of Christians since the day we invaded it, and has been a scientific and technological freaking superpower. So please stop waving your arms and warning that if Christians get their way, we'll all be sacrificing virgins on altars and replacing surgeons with priests.

So how would you feel if Pat Robertson ran for President and won? Maybe even Jim Bakker. And now Mitt Romney is in the race and has openly made his Mormonism a part of his candidacy, right down to his mormon underware.

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To take an example, a person who feels he has had a full life with little more joy to come, might quite LOGICALLY decide if forced into a situation to sacrifice his life to ensure the prospect of life for younger people.
Why should that person decide to do such as thing unless that person had some belief in the greater worth of humanity?

What requires that belief to be 'religious' or theistic?

A religion is a belief system that may or may not involve a deity. Your obession with equating religion with some Judeo-Christian like god is getting tiresome.

I'm not confining it to Judeo-christianity. We are talking about theism vs. atheism, are we not?

There is no need to drag any notion of a 'higher power'
Only because you are being deliberately obtuse.

No, I'm trying to understand and discuss something in the realm of meaningful terminology. The definitions of religion, deity, and theism on which you appear to rely are so broad as to defeat any useful discourse.

You have admitted that you believe in unprovable abstract concepts that are indistinguishable from a belief in a deity

Bull Phoquing Shiite.

What prompts you to such a lunacy?

... yet you insist that your belief system is some how different from a belief system that involves a deity? You are contradicting yourself.

Who the f... are you talking to? I haven't discussed MY beliefs at all. If you're simply going to make shit up, please don't bother.

If you call Buddhism a religion then you must call Atheism a religion.
Bunk.*
You are not making your case. Buddhists do not believe in a deity -

???? You've never heard of Buddha? Of the various Buddhas and boddhisatvas? I think you need to maybe LEARN SOMETHING before holding forth on it.

[buddhists] believe in achieving enlightenment via lifestyle choices.

Not exactly, or even particularly closely. In any event, they believe a whole lot more doctrine than just that. For one thing, they believe in Nirvana, reincarnation, and that all of what is commonly called reality is an illusion. But hey, it's all good and well for you to roll out a ridiculously reductionist description of Buddhism -- we're supposed to be in your Private Language Land anyway, right?

Good grief!

Atheists worship the idea that there is no deity.

Your creativity knows no bounds, obviously. What the sweet living crap are you pretending to mean by 'worship' now?

Hey Riverwind, would you please helipad the dogdoor for me? Oh, and don't forget to quilt south hamstring after ironworks. :D

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So please, please, please, when we get into these atheist vs. Christian arguments, can the atheists stop acting like Christians want to abolish all science ...

Maybe you haven't notitced, but some Christians want to pretty much do exactly that. (Not that the sentiment is confined Christianity, mind you.)

Just because some Christians reject the science on evolution, doesn't mean they reject all science.

Science is a method. If you want to disagree with a proposition of science, but accept science generally nonetheless, you have to disagree within the method (i.e. with data, evidence, logic). The proponents of creationism and intelligent design don't disagree WITHIN the method, they disagree extraneously.

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And the answer to the question, "Is Buddhism Atheistic?"
I don't see what your point is:
As seen in the Basic Points of Buddhism, one doctrine agreed upon by all branches of modern Buddhism is that "this world is not created and ruled by a God."

And YOU accused ME of being deliberatly obtuse! :shakeshead:

The point was these parts of the material you seem to have blinded yourself to:

... the Buddha did not explicitly rule out the existence of a God or gods, and very shortly after his death a devotional element formed within Buddhism. Stupas were built to contain relics of the Buddha and pilgrimmages were made to places where he had walked.

... In the Mahayana system, a variety of celestial Buddhas and bodhisatvas came to be revered and looked to for assistance on the path to enlightenment.

... Pure Land Buddhists revere and call on the name of the Amitabha Buddha, who will grant them entrance to the paradisical "Pure Land" after death.

As Buddhism spread ... it incorporated local deities and religious practices ... a popular boddhisatva became the female deity Kuan-yin, the giver of children.

...Tibetan Buddhist cosmology features a "vast number of divine beings ... There are six realms of existence in the Tibetan cosmology, one of which is the realm of the gods. The gods enjoy the fruits of good karma in a paradise until their karma runs out and they are reborn in a lower realm. In fact, gods must be reborn as humans to attain enlightenment...

Now stop wasting everyone's time.

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No, I'm trying to understand and discuss something in the realm of meaningful terminology. The definitions of religion, deity, and theism on which you appear to rely are so broad as to defeat any useful discourse.
I am simply picking up on the themes in the original op. Atheism and Theism are similar in many ways and there is a broad common ground. I realize that is it difficult for devout adherents to either philosophy to recognize the similarities.
You have admitted that you believe in unprovable abstract concepts that are indistinguishable from a belief in a deity

Bull Phoquing Shiite. What prompts you to such a lunacy?

Why is belief in the 'greater good' any different from belief in a deity?
Of the various Buddhas and boddhisatvas?
They are celebrities - not deities. There is a big difference. There are many branches of Buddhism - some of them even have a heaven and a hell like Christianity. However, the core Buddhist philosophy does not include a creator or supreme being. That makes it a religion without a diety. Altheism is another religion without a diety.
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I mean, give me a break. America has been full of Christians since the day we invaded it, and has been a scientific and technological freaking superpower. So please stop waving your arms and warning that if Christians get their way, we'll all be sacrificing virgins on altars and replacing surgeons with priests.

So how would you feel if Pat Robertson ran for President and won? Maybe even Jim Bakker. And now Mitt Romney is in the race and has openly made his Mormonism a part of his candidacy, right down to his mormon underware.

Newsflash, there's been a born again person in the White House for 6 years, and the last time I checked, no virgins had been sacrificed. Pat Robertson tried a couple times to run for prez, and he just couldn't get past first base, so stop worrying already!

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No, I'm trying to understand and discuss something in the realm of meaningful terminology. The definitions of religion, deity, and theism on which you appear to rely are so broad as to defeat any useful discourse.
I am simply picking up on the themes in the original op. Atheism and Theism are similar in many ways and there is a broad common ground. I realize that is it difficult for devout adherents to either philosophy to recognize the similarities.

What makes it especially difficult is the fact that Atheism is orthographically constructed, and deliberately intellectually conceived, and exclusively meaningful as, the opposite of theism. To (ab)use the term 'atheism' as you suggest renders it moot, a nullity, pointless. And it leaves no word describing non-theism. (Is THAT the point of this theist agenda?)

Why is belief in the 'greater good' any different from belief in a deity?

Because (a) there's no deity involved, and (B) it's a rational construct, not a devotional/revealed/doctrinal one.

Your turn now -- you tell me how it IS the same as a belief in a deity. Be specific.

Of the various Buddhas and boddhisatvas?
They are celebrities - not deities.

NO! They are shit - not shinola.

Go speak in tongues to someone else.

Altheism is another religion without a diety.

Repetition is not proof.

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NO! They are shit - not shinola.

I'm really proud of that one, btw. It's a three way joke drawing in my snarky reply to River, a pop-cultural aphorism reference, and to cap it off, a theologically-appropriate black-Buddhist koan answer.

(Big pat on the back for me!

What will M.Dancer think, I wonder? )

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Your turn now -- you tell me how it IS the same as a belief in a deity. Be specific.
The 'greater good' is an artifical construct that you use to define your moral compass. It has no basis in reality or anything tangible. The same is true of any belief in a deity. That makes the two belief systems equivalent even if they are superficially different.
Atheism is another religion without a deity.
Repetition is not proof.
I backed up my claim with a link that says quite clearly that "one doctrine agreed upon by all branches of modern Buddhism is that his world is not created and ruled by a God."

That statement is makes it pretty clear that Buddhism is not a theistic religion. The example of Buddhism demonstrates that not all religions are theistic - something that you have refused to accept.

Here is a the definition of religion that I think is most useful for purposes of this discussion:

Sociologists and anthropologists tend to see religion as an abstract set of ideas, values, or experiences developed as part of a cultural matrix. For example, in Lindbeck's Nature of Doctrine, religion does not refer to belief in "God" or a transcendent Absolute. Instead, Lindbeck defines religion as, "a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought… it is similar to an idiom that makes possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments.”[3] According to this definition, religion refers to one's primary worldview and how this dictates one's thoughts and actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

IOW - a religion is not simply something involving a deity. It is a system of belief. Atheism is a system of belief which makes it a religion.

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Newsflash, there's been a born again person in the White House for 6 years, and the last time I checked, no virgins had been sacrificed. Pat Robertson tried a couple times to run for prez, and he just couldn't get past first base, so stop worrying already!

Now he's one guy I wish had used his moral sense instead of being responsible for 1000's of deaths.

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Holy crap, Figleaf! (I tried, but the shit reference went way over my head) You're indefatigable with debunking this nonsense. I don't know how you stay focused without just throwing your hands up in the air and accepting that some people may never "get" it. Maybe I'm the idiot since I grow tired of explaining the same things 'round and 'round in circles. Or maybe I really am a disrespectful pompous ass in the sense that I think some people are too stupid to understand reason.

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Your turn now -- you tell me how it IS the same as a belief in a deity. Be specific.
It has no basis in reality or anything tangible. The same is true of any belief in a deity. That makes the two belief systems equivalent even if they are superficially different.

So what you're saying is you don't believe in God, the same way millions (actually billions) of people on this planet believe in God. God is not tangible and not based in reality. There is no deity listening to and answering prayers and interjecting in our lives. He didn't create the world, there is no such "place" as heaven or hell. These are nothing more than ideas, feel good stories for the masses.

I don't think you really believe in God and that's why you can draw the comparison to atheism, because your belief of God is NO belief in the very same sense as atheism is no belief.

God has no basis in reality, you heard it from Riverwind, I'm just quoting it.

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Your turn now -- you tell me how it IS the same as a belief in a deity. Be specific.
It has no basis in reality or anything tangible.

How can you say the greater good has 'no basis in reality'? People have interests, in survival, in comfort, in freedom. These interests are real and measurable, at least by proxies. The greater good involves the provision of these very real things to greater numbers.

It's about as real as you can get.

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I don't think you really believe in God and that's why you can draw the comparison to atheism, because your belief of God is NO belief in the very same sense as atheism is no belief.
I don't recall ever saying that believed in God. I am just not arrogant enough to presume that my belief system is superior to one that includes a deity. I frankly don't care how someone derives their sense of ethics. All I care about is that they have one and that it is compatible with ethical system that the rest of us have.
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Atheism is another religion without a deity.
Repetition is not proof.
I backed up my claim with a link that says quite clearly that "one doctrine agreed upon by all branches of modern Buddhism is that his world is not created and ruled by a God."

You TRIED to back up you claim ABOUT BUDDHISM with that selective reference from a larger article showing that Buddhism is heavily cluttered with deities and what have you.

Also, it says 'not created or ruled'. But created and ruled are not the criteria for theism, so you're lost on that one too.

And meanwhile, even if Buddhism were the same as atheism (which it isn't) that would simply make it not a religion (which it is) .

... not all religions are theistic - something that you have refused to accept.

Okay. Here, more or less is the defition I mean when I'm talking about religion:

Religion:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers rposessed of motives and capable of action in the human sphere.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

What other word do you think people would use when they are attempting to capture that concept?

Here is a the definition of religion that I think is most useful for purposes of this discussion:...

Having read it, I don't agree that it's especially useful for this discussion. It is a highly technical sociological definition, useful perhaps for their purposes, but remote from both lay experience and moral philosophizing.

That said, I also think if provides strong support for another distinction between religion and atheism. Atheism does not, never has, (and does not purport to) make "possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments.”

(Did you read that before you posted it? :lol: )

IOW - a religion is not simply something involving a deity. It is a system of belief. Atheism is a system of belief which makes it a religion.

Reductionism seems to be your main argumentative tool. FYI, it's a poor one.

Religion is a particular type of belief system. Atheism is a different (diametrically opposed) type of belief system.

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Is there anything more absurd than atheists trying to set the ground rules for what is and isn't a religion?

Of course buddhism is a religion......at least my buddhist relatives tell me it is....while I eat my steaks rare....warning me about the consequences.......

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Religion is a particular type of belief system. Atheism is a different (diametrically opposed) type of belief system.
Great you finally agree: theism and atheism are simply different types of belief systems. If using the word 'religion' to describe atheism upsets your sensitivities then I won't argue the point further.

The orginal op was calling for a recognition that there is a great deal of common ground between different types of belief systems. I sentiment that I feel has a lot of merit.

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Religion is a particular type of belief system. Atheism is a different (diametrically opposed) type of belief system.
Great you finally agree: theism and atheism are simply different types of belief systems. If using the word 'religion' to describe atheism upsets your sensitivities then I won't argue the point further.

'Sensitivities'? No.

Your position simply seems nonsensical. You seemed to be trying to say that any/all belief systems are religion.

The orginal op was calling for a recognition that there is a great deal of common ground between different types of belief systems.

Two different, diametrically opposed belief systems. (Though let's be honest, it's quite a stretch even to call atheism a 'system'.)

I sentiment that I feel has a lot of merit.

What merit?

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Your position simply seems nonsensical. You seemed to be trying to say that any/all belief systems are religion.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ....
Two different, diametrically opposed belief systems.
You can make the same artificial distinction between any two belief systems (e.g. Buddhism and Christianity). It does not mean that the belief systems have nothing in common.
I sentiment that I feel has a lot of merit.
What merit?
Most of the conflicts in the world are caused by zealots insisting that their belief system is the one and only true belief system (atheists often as a bad as any theist when it comes to zealotry). A little humility goes a long way towards social peace.
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