5 Inquiries of Hero's Death

[Guthrie]

after all it's admissions and "Official Inquiries" - the military has managed to jerk around this family to the point where they want a full on Congressional Probe -- oh yes, subpoenas and everything

ABC News

SAN JOSE, Calif. - Pat Tillman's family firmly rejected the Defense Department's findings into the former NFL star's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan, calling for congressional investigations into what they see as broad malfeasance and a cover-up.

"Perhaps subpoenas are necessary to elicit candor and accuracy from the military," his family said in a statement Monday night, after hearing the results of the latest probes.

The men who shot Tillman have always claimed the April 22, 2004, incident was a terrible mistake in the fog of war, and the Army officially agreed Monday, declining to press charges.

But possible punishments still hang over several high-ranking officers who allegedly botched the investigations and key administrative tasks.

Nine Army officers, including four generals, made errors in reporting the friendly fire death to their superiors and to the Tillman family, the Pentagon said. Defense officials said one or more of those officers who provided misleading information as the military investigated could be charged with a crime.

Rep. Mike Honda, who represents the Tillmans' San Jose district, wrote Tuesday to the House Committee on Armed Services, asking the panel to hold hearings on the case.

"Yesterday's reports raise more questions than they answer," he said.

...

Acting Army Secretary Peter Geren asked Gen. William Wallace, who oversees training for the Army, to review the actions of the officers and to provide a progress report on possible punishments in 30 days.

"We as an Army failed in our duty to the Tillman family, the duty we owe to all the families of our fallen soldiers: Give them the truth, the best we know it, as fast as we can," Geren told reporters at the Pentagon. "Our failure in fulfilling this duty brought discredit to the Army and compounded the grief suffered by the Tillman family. For that, on behalf of the Army, I apologize to the Tillman family."

"The briefing we just received was shamefully unacceptable," the family said in a statement issued from their home in San Jose, where Pat Tillman grew up. "Our family is therefore compelled to continue our (pursuit of) the full truth about the circumstances of Pat Tillman's death and the so-called 'missteps' and 'deficiencies' of Pat's unit, the Army, the Department of Defense, and this administration."

...

[kuzadd]

what a farce the entire Tillman episode has been.

The way the US military used, USED, for propaganda value, this man's death, was sick, just sick.

The lying, cover-up, yeesh!

No wonder the family wants a full congressional probe.

Just another Bush regime lie.

[kuzadd]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ml?nav=hcmodule

Army Withheld Details About Tillman's Death

Investigator Quickly Learned 'Friendly Fire' Killed Athlete

The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of "gross negligence," but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.

The army knew, but the propagandic value was so high, "the NFL player, who quit a lucrative career to serve his country" was just to good, to not use.

Obviously,the concern for Tillman's family, was not there!

A new Army report on the death shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John P. Abizaid, were told that Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service.

Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a large boulder during a twilight firefight along a narrow canyon road near the Pakistani border, according to nearly 2,000 pages of interview transcripts and investigative reports obtained

and then to try to ensure the coverup.

'

The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from Tillman's brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack on April 22, 2004, but did not witness it."

thankfully, the family persisted, or the truth would likely have not come out for a long, long time.

pathetic!

Just like Jessica Lynch, another big BS scam.

[buffycat]

I would agree Kuzadd, the whole Tillman thing is pretty disgusting - he was used - to increase recruitment. The lies go on and on.

I do hope that the family can find some solice in the fact that many do now realize the depths to which this particular administration has continually told mistruths to the public.

yours in recognising the lies,

buffy

[Guthrie]

The only real questions left, concerning this soldier's death, is how high up the coverup goes. I suspect Don Rumsfeld's name will eventually pop out and it will be game/set/match for the Buschistas ---

no wonder they were so quick to staunch the exposure of the VA scandal - they can't afford to let people see the true disdain and disregard these greedy politicians show American veterans at that moment in time when they need some repayment of the debt a grateful country acknowledges whenever the president holds a wreath and wants to have a photo op showing his compassion

[M.Dancer]

I would agree Kuzadd, the whole Tillman thing is pretty disgusting - he was used - to increase recruitment. The lies go on and on.

I do hope that the family can find some solice in the fact that many do now realize the depths to which this particular administration has continually told mistruths to the public.

yours in recognising the lies,

buffy

Never heard of him till after his death. So I don't know how he was used and I suspect neithe do you.

[kuzadd]

I would agree Kuzadd, the whole Tillman thing is pretty disgusting - he was used - to increase recruitment. The lies go on and on.

I do hope that the family can find some solice in the fact that many do now realize the depths to which this particular administration has continually told mistruths to the public.

yours in recognising the lies,

buffy

Never heard of him till after his death. So I don't know how he was used and I suspect neithe do you.

Never heard of him till after his death. So I don't know how he was used and I suspect neithe do you.

I heard of him, quite some time ago, you haven't at all, as you admit.

Now my question is given you acknolwedge you never heard of Pat |Tillman, which I must say is amazing, IMO, but I digress........

back to question

You never heard of Pat Tillman, as acknowledged,THEREFORE, how do you know other people, who have heard of him, way back, have no opinion on how he was used in death.???

[kuzadd]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060320/scheer0308

Mary Tillman: 'The Administration Used Pat'

"The Administration used Pat," Mary Tillman told me in a phone interview on Monday from San Jose. "They tried to attach themselves to his virtue and then they wiped their feet with him."

For more than a month, an investigating officer's determination that friendly fire and possible "gross negligence" had led to Tillman's death was buried so that military press releases and a nationally televised memorial service could sell America on the completely false notion that Tillman had died while in a gun battle with Taliban or Al Qaeda irregulars. The officer also later testified that, in the subsequent investigations, key witnesses were allowed to change their previous testimony.

anyone who knows anything, or who has followed the Pat Tillman saga, will know, how he was used.

[Guthrie]

Well, no, he's no "Gump" Worsley but he is well known in America - and his genuine patriotism and heroism are qualities the Buschista wanted to bask in the glow of -- the miserable, miserable bastards.

can I call them miserable bastards or will I get a game misconduct and be ejected for telling the truth

[moderateamericain]

I actually got a chance to see a hearing on this. Eyewitness testimony by the rangers that were there and by investigators who went back on the exact day and time. Tillman and one other ranger were with an Afghan national on the slope of a rocky outcrop facing down on the road where the 2nd part of his unit was passing by in vehicles. The staff seargent in vehicle one fired on them because he saw the Afghanistan man first. the following trucks followed suit shooting in the same area. Also two other Rangers were hit in a different spot about 50 yards down the road. However, they were wounded and not killed. They went through the whole thing from start to finish. I had a great deal of sympathy for the Tillman family, but i believe this was truly an accident. I believe this is there way of coping with the death of there son.

[guyser]

I actually got a chance to see a hearing on this. Eyewitness testimony by the rangers that were there and by investigators who went back on the exact day and time. Tillman and one other ranger were with an Afghan national on the slope of a rocky outcrop facing down on the road where the 2nd part of his unit was passing by in vehicles. The staff seargent in vehicle one fired on them because he saw the Afghanistan man first. the following trucks followed suit shooting in the same area. Also two other Rangers were hit in a different spot about 50 yards down the road. However, they were wounded and not killed. They went through the whole thing from start to finish. I had a great deal of sympathy for the Tillman family, but i believe this was truly an accident. I believe this is there way of coping with the death of there son.

I will take that as gospel and from what I know I agree.

But I think the issue the family has is the "commercialization" of his death. They should have just told the truth from the outset

[moderateamericain]

I actually got a chance to see a hearing on this. Eyewitness testimony by the rangers that were there and by investigators who went back on the exact day and time. Tillman and one other ranger were with an Afghan national on the slope of a rocky outcrop facing down on the road where the 2nd part of his unit was passing by in vehicles. The staff seargent in vehicle one fired on them because he saw the Afghanistan man first. the following trucks followed suit shooting in the same area. Also two other Rangers were hit in a different spot about 50 yards down the road. However, they were wounded and not killed. They went through the whole thing from start to finish. I had a great deal of sympathy for the Tillman family, but i believe this was truly an accident. I believe this is there way of coping with the death of there son.

I will take that as gospel and from what I know I agree.

But I think the issue the family has is the "commercialization" of his death. They should have just told the truth from the outset

yeah i agree on the commercialization part.

[Guthrie]

I actually got a chance to see a hearing on this. Eyewitness testimony by the rangers that were there and by investigators who went back on the exact day and time. Tillman and one other ranger were with an Afghan national on the slope of a rocky outcrop facing down on the road where the 2nd part of his unit was passing by in vehicles. The staff seargent in vehicle one fired on them because he saw the Afghanistan man first. the following trucks followed suit shooting in the same area. Also two other Rangers were hit in a different spot about 50 yards down the road. However, they were wounded and not killed. They went through the whole thing from start to finish. I had a great deal of sympathy for the Tillman family, but i believe this was truly an accident. I believe this is there way of coping with the death of there son.

which hearing did you see? why was the report generated by it not satisfactory in and of itself??

[buffycat]

Never heard of him till after his death. So I don't know how he was used and I suspect neithe do you.

Uh, I recall when he died and how it was used, it's something I've followed for a while. Don't assume what I know or don't know.

The utter commercialisation and outright exploitation of his death was pretty sickening - as bad as the Lynch thing. It was so obvious I'm surprised at how many are sucked in.

I feel for the family because they were used and lied to from what I gather just as much. Why not just be honest and tell the family and the country that the lad was killed by friendly fire - afterall it's not a new thing.

It's sad allround.

[kuzadd]

I actually got a chance to see a hearing on this. Eyewitness testimony by the rangers that were there and by investigators who went back on the exact day and time. Tillman and one other ranger were with an Afghan national on the slope of a rocky outcrop facing down on the road where the 2nd part of his unit was passing by in vehicles. The staff seargent in vehicle one fired on them because he saw the Afghanistan man first. the following trucks followed suit shooting in the same area. Also two other Rangers were hit in a different spot about 50 yards down the road. However, they were wounded and not killed. They went through the whole thing from start to finish. I had a great deal of sympathy for the Tillman family, but i believe this was truly an accident. I believe this is there way of coping with the death of there son.

I will take that as gospel and from what I know I agree.

But I think the issue the family has is the "commercialization" of his death. They should have just told the truth from the outset

A better word, then commercialization, and more accurate, is the exploitation of his death, explotation, was what happened.

[kuzadd]

I actually got a chance to see a hearing on this. Eyewitness testimony by the rangers that were there and by investigators who went back on the exact day and time. Tillman and one other ranger were with an Afghan national on the slope of a rocky outcrop facing down on the road where the 2nd part of his unit was passing by in vehicles. The staff seargent in vehicle one fired on them because he saw the Afghanistan man first. the following trucks followed suit shooting in the same area. Also two other Rangers were hit in a different spot about 50 yards down the road. However, they were wounded and not killed. They went through the whole thing from start to finish. I had a great deal of sympathy for the Tillman family, but i believe this was truly an accident. I believe this is there way of coping with the death of there son.

It seems there is all manner of issues, with testimony. Including testimony being changed.

Here's some info along the lines of what you are speaking of.

Tillman's platoon had to split up because of a broken Humvee. Tillman's half went ahead toward the town. When the second half of the platoon followed through the canyon, it reportedly came under enemy fire. Tillman grabbed another Ranger and the Afghan soldier and got into position to lend fire support. When the second half of the platoon rounded a corner, they mistook the trio as foes.

"

In interviews with Jones, soldiers who were with Tillman when he died said they immediately reported that other Rangers, riding in a Humvee, emptied their weapons at his position on a hill without first identifying whom they were shooting. Perceiving they were in a heated firefight, the soldiers rounded a corner and used several high-powered weapons to kill an Afghan Militia Force soldier working with the Rangers before pausing and turning their guns on Tillman. About 65 meters away, Tillman had been waving his arms and throwing a smoke grenade to signal his unit that he was not an enemy fighter."

so they killed an Afghan Militia Force soldier, who had been working with the Rangers.

Then they turned there guns on Tillman.

it seems without bothering to see who, they were actually shooting at.

"Another soldier wrote: "I wish that I would have taken a half second to positively identify the targets instead of following another SOP (shoot where your team leader shoots). Maybe CPL Tillman would still be alive or maybe the outcome would still have been the same, but at least I wouldn't have to live with the guilt and reexperience that ambush while I sleep."

from the article I already posted

It may have been an accident, but the ensuing cover-up, was what upset the family to no end.

Including the nationally televised memeorial service, which was as full of BS, as it could get.

it is no wonder the family feels there son's death was exploited.

from his service:

""He made the call. He dismounted his troops, taking the fight to the enemy, uphill, to seize the tactical high ground from the enemy. This gave his brothers and the downed vehicle time to move off that target. He directly saved their lives with that move. Pat sacrificed himself so his brothers could live."

Those are the words Steve White used to describe how Pat Tillman died.

the pertinent excerpt of Navy SEAL Steve White's eulogy and his reaction to the truth.

White, a Navy SEAL, thought he was telling it like it was to the 2,000 or so people gathered in the California sun and to a television audience watching ESPN's live coverage of the memorial service for Tillman on May 3, 2004. White told them all how his war-hero buddy had been killed two weeks earlier in the mountains of Afghanistan during an epic fight against the Taliban.

White, it turns out, was telling it like it wasn't.

But don't blame White for the misinformation. He was just the messenger.

In an interview with ESPN.com, White said he was spoon-fed that story by an Army representative just an hour or so before he took the stage,[/v] draped with American flags that gently swayed in the afternoon breeze, for the memorial service. By then, the Army's top brass and most of the Rangers who had been in the battle already knew Tillman had been killed by his own men, but no one had told Tillman's family or an American public watching along with the crowd in the San Jose Municipal Rose Garden.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/sto...ge=tillmanpart2

sppoon fed the BS by the military, on a nationally televised service, despite the fact the military was fully aware, that it was fratracide.

total exploitation of the man's death, and totally misleading the family.

If it was my child , I would be livid also.

[M.Dancer]

I would agree Kuzadd, the whole Tillman thing is pretty disgusting - he was used - to increase recruitment. The lies go on and on.

I do hope that the family can find some solice in the fact that many do now realize the depths to which this particular administration has continually told mistruths to the public.

yours in recognising the lies,

buffy

Never heard of him till after his death. So I don't know how he was used and I suspect neithe do you.

Never heard of him till after his death. So I don't know how he was used and I suspect neithe do you.

I heard of him, quite some time ago, you haven't at all, as you admit.

Now my question is given you acknolwedge you never heard of Pat |Tillman, which I must say is amazing, IMO, but I digress........

back to question

You never heard of Pat Tillman, as acknowledged,THEREFORE, how do you know other people, who have heard of him, way back, have no opinion on how he was used in death.???

I didn't question whether people had opinions. Buffy said he was used to increase recruitment. I called her om that. If she is so certain he was used, I assume she thinks she knows how. I say she doesn't and will be unbale to show how.

[M.Dancer]

The utter commercialisation and outright exploitation of his death was pretty sickening - as bad as the Lynch thing. It was so obvious I'm surprised at how many are sucked in.

Really.....what kind of commercialization? T-shirts? Bumper stickers? Coffee Mugs with tillman's mug on it?Were thay sold by the Army or given away, to increase recruitement?

[ScottSA]

so they killed an Afghan Militia Force soldier, who had been working with the Rangers.

Then they turned there guns on Tillman.

Y'know, if you want to whine about a coverup, that's one thing. But one of the most disgusting sights I've seen is pathetic armchair generals who wouldn't know one end of a machine gun from the other pontificating about friendly fire incidents. You've probably never been within 1000 miles of a firefight or unfriendly territory, and I'll hazard a guess you don't ever intend to be. You have absolutely no business even pretending to know what it's like to be in a freefire zone in hostile territory, much less scoffingly dissing the actions of soldiers who saw what they thought was the enemy. Gawd, that burns me.

[kuzadd]

so they killed an Afghan Militia Force soldier, who had been working with the Rangers.

Then they turned there guns on Tillman.

Y'know, if you want to whine about a coverup, that's one thing. But one of the most disgusting sights I've seen is pathetic armchair generals who wouldn't know one end of a machine gun from the other pontificating about friendly fire incidents. You've probably never been within 1000 miles of a firefight or unfriendly territory, and I'll hazard a guess you don't ever intend to be. You have absolutely no business even pretending to know what it's like to be in a freefire zone in hostile territory, much less scoffingly dissing the actions of soldiers who saw what they thought was the enemy. Gawd, that burns me.

I don't 'whine" I discuss.

I wonder why you can't discuss the topic, without whining, about what people choose to discuss or not!

It's quite clear the military covered this up and lied to the family, would you care to address that???

Please do and leave all your over the top rhetoric out of it.

[Guthrie]

it seems to me, the DOD were still interested in using Pat Tillman, even after his death --- the circumstances of that death was a natural damper to the effect they wanted and, even if the Army knew better, the DOD chickenhawks did not know better and do not have any sense of honesty nor integrity --- I submit, that is why they engaged in such despicable propaganda frauds

[kuzadd]

btw: how do we delete posts? Is this possible?

thanks in advance!

[kuzadd]

todays news re : Tillman death

Gen. tried to warn Bush on Tillman

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070330/ap_on_...n_friendly_fire

SAN JOSE, Calif. - Just seven days after Pat Tillman's death, a top general warned there were strong indications that it was friendly fire and

President Bush might embarrass himself if he said the NFL star-turned-soldier died in an ambush, according to a memo obtained by The Associated Press.

ADVERTISEMENT

It was not until a month afterward that the

Pentagon told the public and grieving family members the truth — that Tillman was mistakenly killed in

Afghanistan by his comrades.

The memo reinforces suspicions that the Pentagon was more concerned with sparing officials from embarrassment than with leveling with Tillman's family.

In a memo sent to a four-star general a week after Tillman's April 22, 2004, death, then-Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal warned that it was "highly possible" the Army Ranger was killed by friendly fire. McChrystal made it clear his warning should be conveyed to the president.

The memo reinforces suspicions that the Pentagon was more concerned with sparing officials from embarrassment than with leveling with Tillman's family.

so sparing officials was the priority, rather then, being truthful to a family, who's son has been killed????

does seem odd priorities, to normal people, but then to bushco, anything that serves their "purpose" whatever their "purpose' may be, is obviously the priority.

[Guthrie]

It now seems more and more likely, GWB knew about this coverup and encouraged it. He spoke about the dead hero at length during a 2004 White House Correspondents dinner

...

The loss of Army Corporal Pat Tillman last week in Afghanistan brought home the sorrow that comes with every loss, and reminds us of the character of the men and women who serve on our behalf. Friends say that this young man saw the images of September the 11th, and seeing that evil, he felt called to defend America. He set aside a career in athletics and many things the world counts important: wealth and security and the acclaim of the crowds. He chose, instead, the rigors of Ranger training and the fellowship of soldiers and the hard duty in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Corporate Tillman asked for no special attention. He was modest because he knew there were many like him, making their own sacrifices. They fill the ranks of the Armed Forces. Every day, somewhere, they do brave and good things without notice. Their courage is usually seen only by their comrades, by those who long to be free, and by the enemy. ...

he knew, as he spoke, Tillman died in a tragic accident but this huckster used the young man's death as part of his snake oil pitch to the suckers in the thousand dollar seats