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British Navy Sailors


jdobbin

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Try to stay on topic and not let your spleen take over.

Buddy, you said that people that don't agree with military action hate our own society.

Are you nuts?

Once again, we should allow diplomacy to do it's work here. From what I understand the British had boarded a ship, and that is when they were taken prisoner. I realize some people want to see a war, but at the same time I don't see the point in sacrificing numerous lives when we can just as easily use diplomacy, and get these guys out safely with no lives being lost.

A show of force is necessary, we cannot let them get away with kidnapping scott free. An armada of British warships off the coast of Iran doing a naval blockade is one method of diplomacy, no lives have to be lost using this. Also the fact that those waters are disputed makes it wrong, it's not like the sailors were in undisputed Iranian waters.

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...if the Iranians feel they have a case, they have leapt several rungs up the escalation ladder right off the bat.
Not really. The British weren't just sightseeing. They were conducting an armed boarding mission.

If the Iranians were responsible people, they'd allow the British ambassador access to the soliders as they should be granted. Britain and Iran are not at war. Iran cannot take POW's. These people have the right to access consular support and they are being denied. That is esclation.

If Britain is in the wrong and these people were in Iranian waters than sure. But there is an international process about such things that isn't being followed by the Iranians right now.

That is the issue at hand.

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We still don't know exactly where the sailors were.

Well...true...WE don't know exactly. We're just forum-citizens. Mostly civilian. But, as you mentioned even, GPS allowed all parties involved to know exactly where they were. The Iranians knew full well what the Brits were up to in the middle of the river mouth (returning from an inspection in small craft). It had been going on for years. Just they picked a time to make a splash in the world-scene. Pay-back for whatever reason you choose. Ahmedinnerjacket was feeling cocky. Who knows...

But the Shatt al-arab has had a history of disputes going back to the 1600s when the Ottomans and Persians squabbled over who had dominion of the so-called 'Marsh Arabs' and the mouth of the combined Tigres and Euphrates rivers. Since then the 'line' has moved all over the place. Even to a different river further north in one treaty. Under the British, the line was right down the middle then once it gets to the Gulf, it is almost anyone's guess. Saddam had claimed the entire waterway bank to bank and was one of the causes of the Iran-Iraq War. Once the war ended, Saddam recognized the eastern half of the Shatt al-arab as Iranian. With him gone, the border remains unchanged. Right down the middle of the river.

In the mouth of the Shatt al-arab where this happened, the rules re: international waters vs territorial waters are impossibly confusing to say the least. So the 12 mile limit from an agreed baseline for each nation's territorial waters is a poor rule of thumb for a dispute...but that's all there is. Iran has indeed pushed things too far by suddenly finding claim in a pretty much unclaimable area...then conducting what amounts to a kidnapping.

Both sides should rightly claim the area of the mouth of the Shatt al-arab as neutral unless they actually want to sit down and set down marker buoys. But since nobody did anything remotely like this prior to Iranians snatching up the Royal Navy I feel Iran is simply crusin' for a brusin'...

The 'line' over the years: http://course1.winona.edu/aelafandi/PolSci270/maps.htm

Things the Brits find on the Shatt al-arab...mines in this case: http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/mines1.jpg

Commadore HMS Cornwall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql-QvSK_tUw

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no sea more dangerous than the ocean of practical politics...

---Thomas Henry Huxley

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AshNazg:

He did rule through fear and intimidation and brute force, but we need to remember that Iraq is a made-up country. Unlike other countries such as England, Russia, Japan and even US (although to a much lesser extent) Iraq does not have centuries of history that unite the people within it, it does not have centuries of existenence as a power behind it.

One can not make up excuses for countries ruled by brute force, as there are plenty of made up middle eastern countries whom have chosen a different path. i might add made up around the same time as Iraq that did not rule with the same brutality as sadam did.

Iraq is basically a small room where three kids who hate each other have been tossed in. Saddam was like a maniacal, white trash parent who beat his kids but through the beatings he ensured the relative safety of the kids. He even provided basic education and kept them from becoming criminals.

So your saying that it's OK for sadam to beat his kids,or it was nessicary for this brutality because iraqis can not live with each other... it's ok that the desert is full of unmarked grave sites victims of these so called beatings, all done in the name of keeping his kids in line...But he did provide basic education and his jails were free from criminals..

Come 1991, the "Social services" came in and slapped Saddam around for mistreating the kids and then imposed a harsh embargo on the house, preventing Saddam from getting any food, school supplies or entertainment into the country. The kids grew more violent and angry, but still Saddam kept them in check.

Come on...lets tell the whole story here ....siezing another country thru military force does not call for someone to get thier thier hands slapped....

Yes he did keep them in check in fact he used chemical warfare wiping out entire villages, and when not using poison gas, he used modern military eqipment such as attack helos ,tanks, and arty.

Obviously the analogy is superficial, but it more or less illustrates how I feel about the issue. People only deserve democracy until they can realize that they need it and that they want it and that they're ready to do something about it.

You've made it very clear, that until every Iraqis is willing to embrace democracy we in the west should leave them to thier own devices, bury our heads in the sand and wait to see what becomes of it.

So basically we had two choices. Let the Middle Eastern countries sort their own things out and then deal with the resulting government or interfere (and interfere clumsily at that) now and screw the pooch by making the whole world apprehensive of our "democratization process

Much like Britian is dealing with Iran....

Oh yeah, having a leader who has no charisma and no diplomatic tact whatsoever, who keeps talking about crusades and downplays all the atrocities that Israel commits in the Middle East does not help.

This statement says volumes about your postion in ref to the whole middle east problem.

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My only question about this whole affair, is what was the skipper of the frig thinking about letting his boarding party be siezed by a few Iranian gunboats. I'm not a naval boarding party expert, but the frig should have not been more than 500 meters from the boarding party in the first place....and they should have known well head of time that the iranians gunboats were on route to intercept them...

And why did he not inform the iranian gunboats to keep thier distance or be fire upon...i mean a modern frigate could have easily handled the gunboats....Can someone out there with a navy back ground explain this to us...

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They were Iraqi waters, GPS shows that. It's on CNN.

Wasn't CNN the same news organisation who reported on the WMD in Iraq?!

The drums are beating for war with Iran from the usual suspects! While I certainly don't admire the theocratic government presently in power in Iran - isn't it up to the Iranians to decide their own fate? Or are those who want this attack looking to turn Iran into another Iraq? (Where is all has worked out so well - especially for the Iraqi people? /sarcasm).

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They were Iraqi waters, GPS shows that. It's on CNN.

Wasn't CNN the same news organisation who reported on the WMD in Iraq?!

Yeah, CNN is in on a big plot! ErEyoVne is lINYg!!!!!!! Run aaWy fsAT!1!!11! If CNN says they were in Iraqi waters, just imagine where Fox will say they were...Norfolk, probably.

I'm startled at the degree of cynicism and self hatred there is in the west. I'm surprised the left doesn't just charge toward the nearest cliff en masse to just get it all over with.

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They were Iraqi waters, GPS shows that. It's on CNN.

Wasn't CNN the same news organisation who reported on the WMD in Iraq?!

Yeah, CNN is in on a big plot! ErEyoVne is lINYg!!!!!!! Run aaWy fsAT!1!!11! If CNN says they were in Iraqi waters, just imagine where Fox will say they were...Norfolk, probably.

I'm startled at the degree of cynicism and self hatred there is in the west. I'm surprised the left doesn't just charge toward the nearest cliff en masse to just get it all over with.

What an absolutely stupid response. The point I am making is that CNN HAS lied before - so how do you know that they aren't lying again? The push for this has been the current topic of propoganda for some time now - do you really think that is a coincidence?

Can you answer with the use of neural capacity or will you simply blather on with a bunch of rhetoric?

Sheesh!

Oh by the way - how in the world would you even know what my political leanings are (if you buy into the false left/right paradigm) - I'v only made three posts on this board!

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They were Iraqi waters, GPS shows that. It's on CNN.

Wasn't CNN the same news organisation who reported on the WMD in Iraq?!

The drums are beating for war with Iran from the usual suspects! While I certainly don't admire the theocratic government presently in power in Iran - isn't it up to the Iranians to decide their own fate? Or are those who want this attack looking to turn Iran into another Iraq? (Where is all has worked out so well - especially for the Iraqi people? /sarcasm).

No it wasn't. Understanding the whta you are watching is key to understanding the news. What CNN may have reported was someone claiming to have found WMD. Expecting CNN to conduct lengthy analyisis on every piece of news is tinfoil hattery.....in future listen carefully for something like..."Paul Bremner's Search teams concluded tyoday that......"

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"Perhaps your 21 year old brother should've thought twice before he signed away his life in exchange for the benefits that army provides."

Hey Moderate I can understand your anger but listen-most of us kow that was a ridiculous cheap shot and a deliberate insult-please understand that. Teh vast majority of us bloody well appreciate your brother and all other soldiers putting their lives on the line. This person has made the classic mistake of mixing up his political opinions with the lives of soldiers and what their role is.

Soldiers are not politicians. You have a beef, take it up with the politicians not the soldiers who put their lives on the line.

Anyways Mod, I for one thank your brother for doing what he does.

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Figleaf has been proven once again to be the only one on these posts who understands what is really going on in this world.

After all on March 24, 2007, ( no doubt after conferring with Figleaf) a spokesman for Iran’s military stated the Brits confessed after being questioned.

So there you have it, its settled and once again Figleaf got to the bottom of it before anyone else.

Now for those of us mistaken idiots who insist on writing in posts trying to cloud the issue the jig is up.

So if I told you in June of 2004, the Iranians detained 8 British servicemen for three days for the exact same allegation ignore me.

don't believe me if I say int hat incident they had been paraded blindfolded and forced to apologize on Iranian t.v. before they were released.

I am absolutely wrong to suggest that this latest incident is simply designed to grand-stand and try put pressure on the US to release 5 Iranian revolutionary guard they arrested in Iraq.

Figleaf is right. The Iranians have proven their case! They have their confessions!

Now for those of us who want to consider information, the dispute between Britain and Iran over the Shatt Al-Arab waterway running along the Iran and Iraq border is on-going.

This latest incident is not isolated. Back in June of 2004, the British were detained as they delivered a patrol boat to the Iraqi Riverline Patrol Service.

The Iranians call the Shat al-Arab waterway the Arvand River and believe it is their waterway.

During the 2004 incident, independent neutral third parties proved that Iran fabricated the incident and Britain had never entered Iranian waters. Gosh. Imagine that.

For those of us who read we appreciate Iran has been in a dispute with Britain over the islands in the Lower Arabian-Persian Gulf and in particular, Abu Musa, Tunb and Lesser Tunb. This dates back to a dispute between the old Persian Empire and the then Ottoman Empire (Turks). It dates back to the 16th century.

In 1935, the then Shah of Iran renamed the country Iran (he ruled from 1921-1941) then the British pressured him to abdicate and replaced him with his son the last Shah of Iran who was then removed in 1979 by the Ayatollah Kolmeini who came back from exile. (the original Shah was a friend of Hitler which pissed the British off and led to his forced abdication)

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They were Iraqi waters, GPS shows that. It's on CNN.

Wasn't CNN the same news organisation who reported on the WMD in Iraq?!

Yeah, CNN is in on a big plot! ErEyoVne is lINYg!!!!!!! Run aaWy fsAT!1!!11! If CNN says they were in Iraqi waters, just imagine where Fox will say they were...Norfolk, probably.

I'm startled at the degree of cynicism and self hatred there is in the west. I'm surprised the left doesn't just charge toward the nearest cliff en masse to just get it all over with.

What an absolutely stupid response. The point I am making is that CNN HAS lied before - so how do you know that they aren't lying again?

What a stupid claim. CNN reports the news, they don't make it up.
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Soldiers are not politicians. You have a beef, take it up with the politicians not the soldiers who put their lives on the line.

If I have a problem with a mafia boss I should take it up with him only, not with the thugs that he sends to break peoples kneecaps?

Thanks for helping me understand. The British marines are thugs. They break the kneecaps of Iranian people. Man that is nasty. What is with that? Why must they be like that? You think its their diet or maybe watching too much Monty Python?

Have you told anyone else about this? Maybe we should call Tony Blair and tell him so he can stop this.

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"CNN reports the news, they don't make it up."

With due respect, CNN is part of the illuminati which is controlled by the Zionists and masonists.

What about the reptilian aliens/British monarchy drug lords?

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"CNN reports the news, they don't make it up."

With due respect, CNN is part of the illuminati which is controlled by the Zionists and masonists.

What about the reptilian aliens/British monarchy drug lords?

Nevermind the jokes. It's the Bushitlerburtonbeelzebub faction of the Black Hand who controls CNN, but it's supposed to be a secret, so don't tell anyone. They're the ones who fired the USS Cole into the Pentagon and tried to foist it off on us as an airplane attack by swarthy folk from the middle east. iTS aLl leiS!11111@!1!!!!

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Wasn't CNN the same news organisation who reported on the WMD in Iraq?!

The point I am making is that CNN HAS lied before - so how do you know that they aren't lying again?

B_Cat I assume.

The trouble with the much trumpeted 'no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq' is that it fails to account for things such as 4500 tons of VX nerve agent which Saddam had stockpiled. As this chemical weapon requires VERY SPECIAL facilities NOT FOUND IN IRAQ to destroy, most sane people will conclude that this stuff is either still buried in the desert somewhere or in the possesion of a neighbor such as Syria. But since everyone's dog & cat now claim "no WMDs"...out of sight...out of mind.

We'd best hope gnomes from the 5th dimension found this horrible stuff as it would certainly be just ROTTEN if the wrong people got a hold of the deadly chemical.

As mentioned about a zillion times to mostly deaf ears: VX nerve gas is the deadliest chemical man has ever produced. It is known as a WMD for the simple reason that it does not go away. It is known as an 'area denial weapon'...that is...once employed...it isn't safe to go into that area. Period. VX has some unique properties such has being resistant to clean up by normal means. No washing it away. It's oily, so rubbing only spreads it around. It clings to exposed surfaces and vaporizes in normal daytime temperatures before condensing out again when it gets cooler. It can be employed on numerous systems such as SCUDs, Katyushas, and artillery.

Now let this sink in again...

Saddam had about 4500 TONS of the stuff. That tons...not pounds or kilos. A tiny droplet will kill you deader than a bug on the window sill. There is no way it was destroyed by the Iraqis as it takes a special facilities to burn (the Americans keep theirs on Johnston Atoll in the middle of the Pacific in case of spills...it has happened). We never found this VX nerve 'gas'/agent.

So where is this stuff?? Gotta wonder...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?

---Sherlock Holmes to Dr Watson: 'Sign of the Four'

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Figleaf has been proven once again to be the only one on these posts who understands what is really going on in this world.

Well Rue, I've decided to report you for stalking and trolling.

Figleaf is right. The Iranians have proven their case! They have their confessions!

Your drive to lie about my comments is troubling. I have never commented on the 'confessions' Iran claimed the sailors gave, nor have I asserted that Iran has proven their case, or that Iran is in the right in this situation.

Posting falsehoods about other posters is egregious behavior from which you should desist.

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Have you told anyone else about this? Maybe we should call Tony Blair and tell him so he can stop this.

What power does "Yo, Tony" wield? We should just go straight to his American masters.

But then again, you'll just get thrown in Gitmo and tortured until you confess to killing JFK and then get tried and jailed for the rest of your life in some out of the way prison.

So where is this stuff?? Gotta wonder...

Went back to the CIA and the defense department companies that made and supplied the nerve agents in the first place? *Shrug* We may never know.

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Have you told anyone else about this? Maybe we should call Tony Blair and tell him so he can stop this.

What power does "Yo, Tony" wield? We should just go straight to his American masters.

But then again, you'll just get thrown in Gitmo and tortured until you confess to killing JFK and then get tried and jailed for the rest of your life in some out of the way prison.

So where is this stuff?? Gotta wonder...

Went back to the CIA and the defense department companies that made and supplied the nerve agents in the first place? *Shrug* We may never know.

Its my understanding after seeing an interview with the Admiral of the british navy, that the HMS Cornwall, which was the mother ship of the taken British soldiers operates on a GPS system called Xeres. According to the British government, the GPS trackers at the time of the incident put them in Iraqi waters. I guess at this point it is all about who you believe. Iran or Britian

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