Christianity: Was Jesus A Fraud?

[Elder]

I would seriously like to point out that in the matter of religion, God leaves much up to our own faith. It would be way too easy for us if we had tangible solid proof of his existence, on Earth or in Heaven. Mankind is way to dependant on it's own knowledge in these things. I've been shown evidence to scripture, but it's not why I am a Christian. The knowledge of the human race is very very flawed. The laws of science are constantly being rewritten as we find more and more. History is always written by those in power, by imperfect, flawed human benings, and we also have much to discover in the field of archeology. I do not think that we should give up on these practices, but neither should we base what we believe on it. I personally know that Jesus Christ is the true and living son of God, and by him are all that will follow him redeemed from both Death and Hell. As for how I know, that is my business. I get my information from the sources I believe in, you may get yours wherever you please. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve............................................ but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

[Craig Read]

Verc is right on. Christ is the greatest composite fraudalent figure of all time - Moses would come a close second. This is not to denigrate either vision - both are important for various reasons to civilisation, but it is pretty clear that neither existed.

Jesus - a fake though he is - represents a higher ideal. But his teachings were not new, they had been discussed for centuries. Hillel predates Christ by a century, Buddha by 5 centuries and Confucious by 5 as well. The innovation with Christ was that Peter and Paul were able to marry the doctrine, with the person, with the supernaturalty, with the wrath and damnation of a fickle god. Scaring the hell out of peasants is a useful tool to keep them in line as you attempt to invert the social order.

Keep in mind as well that for 800 years the figure on the cross being crucified was a lamb - not a man. It was not until the Renaissance that the figure of the man on the cross was burned into the European mind. This followed a papal decree in about 800 AD that the lamb be substituted by a man. Jesus was an ideal, not a real person.

Hugo references 2 Roman Historians who wrote 40 years after Christ died, but Suetonious references a Greek in Rome, and Tacitus provides no details of Jesus and just mentions Christ in passing with no source proof. None of the other 38 or more Roman historians and philosophers during the period of Christ mention the existence of Christ. This is very odd. No foreign accounts, nothing from travellers, from political delegations, from religious leaders, from magistrates, from officials, and nothing in written form from Christ or anyone associated with him.

But he lived ? Rather improbable. Lots of evidence abounds to support that Confucious, Buddha and Mohammad lived - the first two lived 500 years before Chirst.

Walter R. Cassels, and other learned scholars who have investigated Christ in the modern era, find no evidence he existed. For instance Cassels points out that the Gospels were written 50-150 years after Christ died, in Greek, not Aramaic the language Christ would have spoken at the time.

History must be founded upon genuine documents or on living proof. The Gospels that were written in the second century no longer exist. They have been lost or destroyed. Between the earliest Gospels and the oldest existing manuscripts of the New Testament, there is a blank gulf of three hundred years. It is, therefore, impossible to say what the original Gospels contained.

Can you imagine someone writing FDR's biography on hand me down foreign translated 150 year old transcripts and calling it history ? Me thinketh not.

Leo X - who said Christ was a fraud - was funny enough the son of Lorenzo il Magnifico - the personification of the Renaissance. Leo let Rome dissolve into licentiousness, built huge palaces for his cardinals, engaged in a massive arts building program, hired Michaelangelo and others, and taxed the hell out of Europe to pay for it.

If you want the source of Luther and of German Protestantism - look no further than the centuries old greed of the Church, the belief in amongst the Church elder's that the story of Christ was apocryphal, the sales of indulgences, the overtaxation and the raucous lifestyle of Church leaders, replete with servants, concubines and easy money. Add to this the competing claims of 3 popes during the 15/16th centuries, rationalism, secularism, the printing press, literacy, and the nationalist movements inspired by Henry the 8 and Luther and voila, you have the end of the Church and its power.

Christ is however a useful fraud and vision.

[Derek]

What i would point to that Jesus exsisted is the Coffin they found containing the remains of James. I think the coffin said James son of joseph brother of jesus.

Is that not proof enough?

(sorry if someone stated this earlier, im too lazy to reread the entire thread this late...)

[Craig Read]

That was proven a fraud as well. Many signs including the chalk, the type of inscription, the way it was written, the isotypes found in the coffin and on the inscription and the carbon dating of the coffin itself as well as the carvings all lead to fraud.

As well it is illogical that someone who was crucified and who supposedly was wrapped in sheets and stored in a cave would have a coffin. Why would you have a coffin if your remains were thrown into a hole in a cave ?

None of the stories around or about Jesus make a lot of sense.

[Hugo]

Craig,

There is serious doubt about many characters in history. Many Chinese historians now believe that both Sun-Tzu and Lao Tzu were composites, however, this does not invalidate either the Art of War or the Tao. What bothers me is that usually, people questioning the existence of Christ are not interested in genuine historical inquiry but in Christianity-bashing, as though if they could prove that Christ never lived, they could dissolve the Christian faith.

An example is the very writer that Vercingetorix cited, a lifelong hater of Christians and their faith, who wrote a scathing document full of outright lies, fabrications and groundless assumption that Vercingetorix made the mistake of taking at face value. This is what muddies the waters so, any questioning of the existence of Christ is sullied with inflammatory and dubious statements about the faith of Christianity.

To sum up, I don't see any conclusive evidence that Christ existed. I don't see any conclusive evidence that he did not, either. I also see that proponents of both viewpoints almost invariably have a vested interest: either they are Christian, or vehemently anti-Christian.

The fact is that to believe you must have at least a little faith. How do you know your wife is not having an affair? Unless you watch her 24/7, you do not know for a fact that she is faithful to you. You have some evidence (when she says she is going shopping, she comes back with shopping bags full of goods, when she says she is going to the gym, she comes back out of breath) but nothing can conclusively prove that she is faithful to you.

But you have faith. You love and trust your wife, so you believe that she is not having an affair and, if someone were to ask you if your wife was faithful, you would answer "Yes" without reservation.

[Mr Farrius]

To sum up, I don't see any conclusive evidence that Christ existed. I don't see any conclusive evidence that he did not, either. I also see that proponents of both viewpoints almost invariably have a vested interest: either they are Christian, or vehemently anti-Christian.

None of the stories around or about Jesus make a lot of sense.

It's just so funny how there's a Biblical verse undermining all of your claims.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." -1 Corinthians 1

[Derek]

Bible Verses themselves can be contridicted by other bible verses.

Remember that.

Its how you interpret the verses.

Thats the reason im not catholic....

GO LUTHERANS!

[Craig Read]

Well Derek unlike Christ at least we KNOW that Luther existed. Christ did not. It is impossible that not one single contemporary did not bother to mention Christ or his movement if the man had existed. Without documentative proof you can't say he existed, that is simply a myth, a falsehood, a hope. You might as well believe in the medieval myth of Preacher John and his Asian Christian kingdom or Jacob wrestling with God.

At least the homosexually inclined Luther had plenty of data to support his existence Interesting your man Luther turned against the German peasants when they rose against Rome and he told various Catholic and Protestant rulers to destroy and obliterate the peasants and their revolt. Nice chap Luther.

Rather ironic twist for the man, that helped create German nationalism and who destroyed Rome's cash cow.

[Derek]

Dear Craig,

Christ was real. He was god. He did miraculous things in the world.

I can "prove" this right with the oldest known credible historic book in the world a la BIBLE! Now what book do you have that is as credible and old as the bible?

The bible was written by many people. The 12 (soon to be 13) disciples wrote books, we can prove that most of these men, if not all existed....I don't see how 12 knowledgable men from different backgrounds would get together and make up a being just to make a new religion.....

[Elder]

Derek, I admire your zeal, but Craig is not going to be convinced by the Bible, as he doesn't believe it to be what you call a credible source. Honestly, as I said before, in matters of Religion, it's not a question of proof. It's a question of faith. I do believe the Bible, I believe in Moses and Jacob, and above all, I believe in Christ. I don't believe this because of any of the evidence that I've seen. I don't believe it because of what I was taught. I don't believe in Christ simply because he is spoken of in the Bible, which I do regard as Scripture. I believe the Bible because it speaks of Christ. I seldom hear of a man convert to Christianity because of the overwhelming proof thereof. One has to find out for him or herself whether they believe it to be true.

As for proof, I stick by my last post. The studies of Science and History are noble undertakings, whith great results. However, neither art is perfect. We still don't know everything about our past. We still have a lot of discoveries to make. Who's to say we won't find evidence later on, after we've proven our faith. Who's to say we will. Our view of History and Science is changing as we find out more and more.

I do agree with Mr. Farrius, that before God, the wisdom of man is pretty much nothing. I personally believe he spends a great deal of time laughing at our attempts at wisdom. However, to each his own. We all decide what we choose to believe. Some go with the modern sciences of today, or the secular records of the past. Some rely on Scripture. Some rely on other things entirely. Each person has the right to choose what they believe, and what they base their belief on.

[Craig Read]

The bible is a collection of stories - parables - and roadmaps for living in an age 2000 years gone by. It stories are often full of magic, superstition, contradict each other, are historically inaccurate and geographically at times incoherent. The bible is a history based on documents that have been lost, folklore, oral tradition and written by hundreds of people over 1000 years. To state that this is the book of 'one god' is, to put it politely, total crap.

The bible has its usefulness - the adherence to supernaturality, the resurrection of Christ and in fact the whole history of Christ, and other myths, is not one of them.

Morals, ethics, parables and examples of why the doctrine is necessary is of course to be encouraged. Whether Christ was alive is in the end unimportant. However, you have to admit that the facts supporting his life are about NIL. This makes an interesting and ironic proposition.

What would it mean if Christ was the greatest fraud of all time ???

[Mr Farrius]

It stories are often full of magic, superstition, contradict each other, are historically inaccurate and geographically at times incoherent.

Mr. Read, I highly doubt that you have read the entire Bible, nor have you understood everything in it adequately in context. As a result, you further expose your ignorance and lack of credibility. Please do not ever make such claims anymore unless you have read the entire Bible and understood it as a Christian would.

Whether Christ was alive is in the end unimportant.

I disagree, that is probably one of the most important of all.

[Derek]

The bible is a collection of stories - parables - and roadmaps for living in an age 2000 years gone by.  It stories are often full of magic, superstition, contradict each other, are historically inaccurate and geographically at times incoherent.  The bible is a history based on documents that have been lost, folklore, oral tradition and written by hundreds of people over 1000 years.  To state that this is the book of 'one god' is, to put it politely, total crap.

Sorry Read, your wrong. the first part until you say its stories are full...... is right but from there you dive bomb.

I am seriously doubting your knowledge on how the bible was formed.

I believe, by my faith, that the bible was written by these people that were inspired by god. Yes they literally wrote the books, but GOD himself put the words into the people's minds.

Historically inaccurate to you.

When you speak of "magic, superstition" your prolly referring to parts like "the arc" jonah and the whale, and other such stories. God can do anything, so how can these stories be contridicted by god? (to me and other christians of course)

To state that you do know enough to form an opinion about the bible is, to put it politely, total crap

[Craig Read]

Get serious. The bible was written over a 1000 year period. I suggest you do some reading on the topic.

According to your world view, the guy at the Eaton Centre in Toronto, who stands outside my gym every Saturday screaming with a bible in his hand that he is Jesus and that I can be saved, should be taken seriously. I should accept, blindly, ignorantly, that the guy with the beard and bad breath, is the son of god, and if i just accept his vision of the world, i will be 'saved' and my 'soul' cleansed. I don't need to question, use induction reasoning, or ask for proof. If the man with the beard and bad breath tells me that the bible is from the hand of god, according to you, i need to believe him.

NO thanks.

Anyone who is knowledgeable about the Bible knows that many people wrote it over a long period of time and that during the early medieval period it was in many countries, translated, enhanced and adorned by various writers as well. It is full of superstition, contradictory tales, and inaccuracies.

It is a historical - romantic work and nothing more.

Learn the topic before posting please. Or if you really believe that God handed down the bible, than good for you. I just choose not to remain ignorant.

[Hugo]

It is a historical - romantic work and nothing more.

Craig, the Bible is not really a historical-romantic work. It is a spiritual work. It is not intended to give definitive answers to anything at all, but it was written by men under divine inspiration and the proper purpose of the Bible is to help you to achieve similar divine inspiration. Whether or not the Bible is inaccurate or self-contradictory (and it often is) is not terribly relevant to that, but if it awakens a sense of the divine in you, it has fulfilled its purpose.

Stories like Genesis or the Ark are not there as historical accounts. They may be true, they may be greatly exaggerated, or they may be wholly fictituous. The point of stories like this is not to tell you what happened in history, the point is to bring home to you the omnipotence of God. Similarly, the crucifixion may be true, partially true, or false, but regardless, the point of that story is to show you the compassion and love that God has for Man.

In that regard, the Bible bears a resemblance to Aesop's Fables in that they are a collection of stories that may or may not be based upon any particular real events, but their intended prupose is to illustrate a point.

[Derek]

According to your world view, the guy at the Eaton Centre in Toronto, who stands outside my gym every Saturday screaming with a bible in his hand that he is Jesus and that I can be saved, should be taken seriously. 

Does he have credibility from other people? Jesus did.

Anyone who is knowledgeable about the Bible knows that many people wrote it over a long period of time and that during the early medieval period it was in many countries, translated, enhanced and adorned by various writers as well.  It is full of superstition, contradictory tales, and inaccuracies.

Well according to you Mr. Read you think that 2 billion people aren't knowledgeable about the bible. Thats a big margin for error.....

Learn the topic before posting please.  Or if you really believe that God handed down the bible, than good for you.  I just choose not to remain ignorant.

Ok. I have Faith in Christ. You obviously resort to discrediting the bible as a source of info because of its age and many writers. I don't think you can even comprehend faith.

[Goldie]

Perhaps the bible is a one of many , the Torah, The Koran as all religions have books that bear striking resemblance in their spiritual works. The material laws change with the times and people that they are intended to influence.

Laws of nations must change over time to suit the needs of the time. Why shouldn't the same be seen in religions?

If all religions where actually one work over say 10,000 years to continue the covenant and maintian the spiritual laws, wouldn't this be one example of a proof of the existance of those prophets and messengers and sons and God.

Seems that every thousand years or so someone comes fourth with such a powerful word that thousands of people rally to the cause. Thus, creating a new religion instead of renewing the former and creating division where there is none.

Imagine if every time Canada created a new law the old country rejected it and a new nation emerged from the new law while the old one remained. Very frustrating

[Craig Read]

Goldie you make two important points i believe;

1. The conservative view that morals, ethics, and values are the cornerstone of a well functioning society and should not be subject to whimsical rewriting.

I agree.

2. That renewing these faiths and morals takes someone during a time of social ferment, to re-establish or recreate these principles and 'sell' the ideal to the population.

I agree.

These 2 important points are different than giving them legitimacy through a supernatural link ie. messenger from God or dictates from God.

God is an abstraction, a feeling, a spiritual sharing, a communal energy, a hope. There is nothing wrong with believing in a God, but we have to be realistic as to why 'Gods Persist' [Karen Armstrong] and how the Bible was created and built.

Losing sight of reality obscures the more fundamentally important role religion can play in society. Spirituality and realism can be combined in harmony.

[Derek]

God is an abstraction, a feeling, a spiritual sharing, a communal energy, a hope. There is nothing wrong with believing in a God, but we have to be realistic as to why 'Gods Persist' [Karen Armstrong] and how the Bible was created and built.

Well, people didn't just blindly follow the idea of god right? They had to be sold on it...Now how do you sell people? Miracles. Jesus performed miracles moses did too.

Now im wondering if these were made up?

How did the guy writing them sell them? CREDIBILITY.

We shall see in the future who is right about God.

I say he is a being, he is a actual thing.

You say he is an emotion. a feeling... so be it.

We shall see....

[Mr Farrius]

Derek, Mr. Read is right in the sense that from a logical standpoint, Jesus or the Bible doesn't make sense. If Christians, or even those of any other religion try to argue itself in that manner, they will most likely lose every single time. What Mr. Read can't argue however is the fact that people's lives change through the Bible and through Jesus. There are countless numbers of incontrovertible testimonies out there revealing that Jesus Christ did exist, and still exists today. There are even those who have been exposed to the Bible and have become totally different people, continuing to use the Bible as a guide to life and its issues. People can argue on and on about the Bible from a logical perspective, but their attempts are made insignificant, because Jesus is real and the lives of people show accordingly. And no abstraction or feeling can do such a thing. Let those continue to argue that Jesus doesn't exist flail around in their stubbornness and their petty logic, as everyday more and more people's lives change into something they've never experienced before.

[righturnonred]

Some very interesting posts.

Personally, my belief in divinity is more metaphysical than spiritual. From a logical standpoint, I cannot reconcile what I see around me, my world, with the notion that there is a lack of intellegence at work in it's conception. There is simply too much complexity, too much harmony, too much precision in nature for it to have been conjured in the absence of thought.

Did Jesus actually exist? I believe he probably did. Was he the son of God? There's just no way to know for sure. Is much of the histrory contained in the Bible hogwash? Certainly. Does that book still possess great value in our society? Absolutely, but not as a historical account.

[Vercingetorix]

Derek...you are making one big mistake with your posts. You are saying that the Bible's existence proves that it is correct.

I could say the same about the Quran, the Rg Veda, The Cat in the Hat, or just about any book I wished.

[Craig Read]

Verc, good point, and i can add that the Bible itself has adapted to changing circumstance. To state that it is the book of truth strikes me as the height of ignorance.

The fact that species adapt to nature and competition obviates the need for a guiding intelligence. To state that the harmony witnessed in nature is dependent on some god like figure, is to make the same claim taht market supply and demand should depend on god like bureaucrats who can determine and manage supply and demand and market pricing.

Christianity itself has evolved. The stories, the parables, the sayings and the purpose of the religion has changed over time due to socio-economic and political circumstance. Christ is no more a real figure than is Moses or other figures from the Bible which is itself an oftentimes incoherent and contradictory collection of stories written by many hands. This is not to belittle the Christian faith [far from it], but one needs to dissociate the underlying themes from God, a mythical man called Jesus and supernaturalia.

Gods persist for most people to simplify life and explain phenomena that they either can't or don't want to understand. Gods are a useful means to subjugate people into society - 'do this or be damned'. It works for agrarian, ill educated and superstitious, and predominantly poor societies.

Religion does itself no favors in a world of science, communications and capital, by adhering to road maps and God centric philosophies built for backwards civilisations 2000 years old.

For religion as for species - adapt or die.

[Cameron]

Religion does itself no favors in a world of science, communications and capital, by adhering to road maps and God centric philosophies built for backwards civilisations 2000 years old.

For religion as for species - adapt or die.

Agreed...

[Mr Farrius]

Christianity itself has evolved. The stories, the parables, the sayings and the purpose of the religion has changed over time due to socio-economic and political circumstance. Christ is no more a real figure than is Moses or other figures from the Bible which is itself an oftentimes incoherent and contradictory collection of stories written by many hands.

Mr. Read, I would love to know how Bible stories have changed over time. Examples, examples. I would also love an example of a story that seems incoherent as you have yet to provide even one Bible story that seemed as such.