If the 407 is private...

[guyser]

But these roads aren't public. They are private and the Private Sector is better at handling business of highway management and creation. It is a perfect marriage. The public sector should do the handling of restricting license plates. That is the role of government. Particularly for deadbeats who don't pay their ETR fees. The road is private and if you are too poor, you shouldn't drive on it. Private roads are PRIVATE. It is good, it's smart.

Don't worry, the government has no intention of ending the toll. Infact the government has no say in the matter. The ETR is a money maker. The purchasing company has no intention of ending the toll. The road has already been paid for by the company. A few Billion for a Multi Billion $ highway. An excellent business decision, and Mike Harris made it happen.

Going to have to disagree here.

#1-The ETR, while it would have been better if they had built it with private money, it wasnt and we all paid for it once, only to pay to use it again. I would be okay if they paid for it, land, constr cost, patrol, snow the whle shebang.

#2-it was sold at a huge discount. So we paid the big bill, and recd nothing in return. Not smart.

#3-should have a sunset clause on the deal, and we dont.

#4- why should that particular "private business" get the bonus of having the govt collect its fees for it? Why cant my private business, the one that insures all those who use this road to be covered in the event of a loss, be on the provincial licence system for "unpaid fees" ? Lets be honest here, an unpaid 407 fee does no "damage" to a user, whoever one uninsured driver can and does harm another user .

The toll is not extortion. Wealthy people enjoy their low volume super highway. Complete with Provincial Police enforcing the highway traffic act for their safety. The Private Highway is a success story. You should be cheering.

That success story is at the cost of taxpayers. Had fair value been charged from the outset, and fair value for tolls charged, then I would agree with you. (minus the fee collection)

[madmax]

#1-The ETR, while it would have been better if they had built it with private money, it wasnt and we all paid for it once, only to pay to use it again. I would be okay if they paid for it, land, constr cost, patrol, snow the whle shebang.

It is built with private money. All new roads built are with private money. Selling off government assests is good. The government couldn't run the toll road. It was better to be sold off. And the public should be clearing the road, patrolling the highway, and plowing the snow. The Public must finance these, because the ETR is a taxpayer, and we pay taxes to have our highways ploughed.

#2-it was sold at a huge discount. So we paid the big bill, and recd nothing in return. Not smart.

Its a good thing government sold out early. Could you imagine how much more the government would have lost operating the toll roads? Having the tax payer pay for the highway, sell it off to a private consortium shows shrewed business negoitations. People buy stocks, you win some you lose some. It was a great deal at the time, and it is sour grapes to say you recd nothing in return. There is a beautiful highway with low traffic, easy to use transponders, and an ENFORCED billing of clientele. Nobody gets a free ride.

Here are the real costs. This is what a successful and driven government can achieve for the benefit of the privatization and the taxpayer.

The highway opened in 1997, and highway cost roughly $1.6 billion. The published $1.6 billion cost does not take into account more than $100 billion spent since the early 1970s acquiring the land that it sits on. (Ontario Government Hansard - Wednesday 21 October 1998 - 1520, 1550. Estimates range from $104-107 billion total taxpayer investment as of 31 March 1998)

Those purchases benefited all of us, who choose to use the road.

#3-should have a sunset clause on the deal, and we dont.

A sunset clause is like handing Hong Kong back to China. There is no reason to have a sunset clause on a private highway.

#4- why should that particular "private business" get the bonus of having the govt collect its fees for it?

That is a valuable government service that the people in the Province of Ontario want to have so that deadbeats pay up. Wealthy people need the ETR and those new highways built so that they can travel around the Province in comfort, without having to wait in start and stop traffic on the highway. Just because private business collects taxes for the government, is no reason that the government can't return the favour for a profitable enterprise. The thought of people like Wild Bill abusing the highway, and then pulling out the violin because his plates were to be denied, is just another individual trying to take advantage of the Private Enterprise and NOT getting away with it. It is like the Police arresting and the courts convicting a theif. That is paid by the public. If the government isn't going to stand up to these "roadwarriors" who abuse the highway tolls, who is going to do it?

Why cant my private business, the one that insures all those who use this road to be covered in the event of a loss, be on the provincial licence system for "unpaid fees" ? Lets be honest here, an unpaid 407 fee does no "damage" to a user, whoever one uninsured driver can and does harm another user .

Well the reason is simple. Your in insurance, and everyone hates insurance[/b]. Next thing you know, this thinking that the government should be involved collecting your fees, people might say Insurance should be publicly owned. And we don't want to go down that slippery slope.

Your private business is to maintain the security of your clients while travelling on the wonderful and safe 407. Infact, there should be 50% discounts on insurance for anyone using the 407 because of its lower traffic accidents. (there is lower incidents isn't there?)

That success story is at the cost of taxpayers. Had fair value been charged from the outset, and fair value for tolls charged, then I would agree with you. (minus the fee collection)

There you go again.

One mans failure is another mans success. I am thrilled by the 407 and its ability to work with government and not against government. It has been the government that threatens this private business, and that is just wrong.

The ETR is heavily regulated on what it can charge and how much it can raise rates. Much like the insurance industry.

And how can anyone question the fairness of these rates. Infact some have dropped dramatically since 1997.

The base toll, as of March 18, 2008, for vehicles under 5,000 kg is 19.00 to 19.25 cents/km during peak hours (6am-10am and 3pm-7pm weekdays) depending on where the vehicle travels and 18.00 cents/km during other hours for all stretches of the highway. Upon its opening in 1997, toll rates were 10 cents/km during daytime peak hours, 8 cents/km during daytime off-peak hours and weekends, and 4 cents/km during the night.[1] Current toll rates have increased between 76% and 238%, depending on the time of day, than the rates when the highway opened in 1997. These increases are significantly higher than the rate of inflation which hovers around 2% per year in Canada.

Additionally, there is a $2.55/month or $21.50/year charge for the first transponder, and $1.00/month or $9.95/year for the second and additional transponders on an account.

Autos without transponders are charged $2.55 for each month with activity, plus a $3.60 Video Toll Charge. Upon opening in 1997, these rates were $1 per month of activity and $2 for the video toll charge. For heavy vehicles, transponders are mandatory, with their absence punishable both as a traffic offence and by a $15 per trip surcharge. This is significantly reduced from $50/trip when the highway opened in 1997.

How can you not agree with this?

Back to Sex with Animals

[guyser]

Selling off government assests is good. The government couldn't run the toll road. It was better to be sold off. And the public should be clearing the road, patrolling the highway, and plowing the snow. The Public must finance these, because the ETR is a taxpayer, and we pay taxes to have our highways ploughed.

Why copuldnt the govt operate it the way it is now? It is a cash cow for the owners as I understand it.

I cant see where spending 100B and sell for 3.1B is a good deal . What am I missing?

A sunset clause is like handing Hong Kong back to China. There is no reason to have a sunset clause on a private highway.

Turns out there is.....it occurs in 99 years from lease date.

Well the reason is simple. Your in insurance, and everyone hates insurance[/b]. Next thing you know, this thinking that the government should be involved collecting your fees, people might say Insurance should be publicly owned. And we don't want to go down that slippery slope.

Oh why did I mention insurance...to you ??

I dont agree though. If this is a private business, then they should have to what all private business' do, collect on your own dime.

My business is the same as the 407, a private business conducting in Ont. But only one of us has the benefit of virtually never losing a dime on unpaid fees. Why is that? Is there any reason for it? I do know the MTO originally sought leave to appeal as they did not want any part of it, but aside from that I know not.

One mans failure is another mans success. I am thrilled by the 407 and its ability to work with government and not against government. It has been the government that threatens this private business, and that is just wrong.

The ETR is heavily regulated on what it can charge and how much it can raise rates. Much like the insurance industry.

I am not really against the 407, whats done is done. I dont agree with it, but I can live with it. I use it only if I am late for a meeting, so it suits my needs.

On your last point, true, we are all regulated, but only one of us has a 0% balance sheet.

Back to Sex with Animals

It certainly is more fun.

[Wild Bill]

It is built with private money. All new roads built are with private money. Selling off government assests is good. The government couldn't run the toll road. It was better to be sold off. And the public should be clearing the road, patrolling the highway, and plowing the snow. The Public must finance these, because the ETR is a taxpayer, and we pay taxes to have our highways ploughed.

Its a good thing government sold out early. Could you imagine how much more the government would have lost operating the toll roads? Having the tax payer pay for the highway, sell it off to a private consortium shows shrewed business negoitations. People buy stocks, you win some you lose some. It was a great deal at the time, and it is sour grapes to say you recd nothing in return. There is a beautiful highway with low traffic, easy to use transponders, and an ENFORCED billing of clientele. Nobody gets a free ride.

Here are the real costs. This is what a successful and driven government can achieve for the benefit of the privatization and the taxpayer.

Those purchases benefited all of us, who choose to use the road.

A sunset clause is like handing Hong Kong back to China. There is no reason to have a sunset clause on a private highway.

That is a valuable government service that the people in the Province of Ontario want to have so that deadbeats pay up. Wealthy people need the ETR and those new highways built so that they can travel around the Province in comfort, without having to wait in start and stop traffic on the highway. Just because private business collects taxes for the government, is no reason that the government can't return the favour for a profitable enterprise. The thought of people like Wild Bill abusing the highway, and then pulling out the violin because his plates were to be denied, is just another individual trying to take advantage of the Private Enterprise and NOT getting away with it. It is like the Police arresting and the courts convicting a theif. That is paid by the public. If the government isn't going to stand up to these "roadwarriors" who abuse the highway tolls, who is going to do it?

Well the reason is simple. Your in insurance, and everyone hates insurance[/b]. Next thing you know, this thinking that the government should be involved collecting your fees, people might say Insurance should be publicly owned. And we don't want to go down that slippery slope.

Your private business is to maintain the security of your clients while travelling on the wonderful and safe 407. Infact, there should be 50% discounts on insurance for anyone using the 407 because of its lower traffic accidents. (there is lower incidents isn't there?)

There you go again.

One mans failure is another mans success. I am thrilled by the 407 and its ability to work with government and not against government. It has been the government that threatens this private business, and that is just wrong.

The ETR is heavily regulated on what it can charge and how much it can raise rates. Much like the insurance industry.

And how can anyone question the fairness of these rates. Infact some have dropped dramatically since 1997.

How can you not agree with this?

Back to Sex with Animals

You have to be trolling! You throw my name into your argument, conveniently ignoring the pertinent facts. I've been dinged when I owed them nothing! I haven't used their road in over 10 years!

I think you are trying to make some kind of slam against "right wingers", or at least those who might question public ownership of facilities. If so, you've picked a bad model to make your point. Just because the 407 consortium is so flawed has nothing to do with the idea of privatization being flawed. It simply means that THIS CONSORTIUM is flawed! And that the provincial government refuses to effectively deal with the problems, hiding behind the courts.

Almost as if they too had a hidden interest, wouldn't you think?

I'm sure that if we thought long enough we could probably come up with something run by the public sector that works well, is self-sustaining and is cost-effective. Might take a while but sooner or later we'd think of something.

I'm constantly amazed by how many people think digitally - all off or all on. The logical flaw is always the same. We hear "Your party is bad so mine must be good!", "Tories made a mistake so Liberals must always be perfect!", and now apparently "The 407 is an example of what must always come with privatization of a public service!"

Things are the way they are, period. And the 407 is the epitome of bad customer service in making mistakes and dealing with them. Trying to make them out to be some kind of poster boy for an anti-privatization argument is just too much of a stretch for me to follow.

One could make a better argument for how politicians and public servants could make such a bonehead deal with no proper checks and balances. Trying to argue that Harris and crew did it deliberately out of fiendish malice is just "reptilian kitten-eating" rubbish! They too were politicians and they too had the civil service flesh out the details.

Would this not be proof that the public sector is ALWAYS incompetent? Not at all.

Try harder, Max!

[madmax]

You have to be trolling! You throw my name into your argument, conveniently ignoring the pertinent facts.

....................................

Try harder, Max!

Hi Wild Bill

I surrender

Edited November 12, 2008 by madmax

[Oleg Bach]

Don't like the idea of some private off shore company pulling my drivers licence because I have not payed tribute to them in the form of a toll - If it was not for the basic public money that got 407 it's start - it would not exist. Much like the incrimental privatization of the former Ontario Hydo grid - I could have sworn that we paid for the basic infrastructure originally - but now private hands are demanding money from us from what actually belonged to us...I don't get it - The consortium that is 407 can kiss my butt - and I am NOT going to stop carrying that illegal immigrant in my trunk who covers my plate and hides it from the scanning cameras - I pay him 3 bucks a day - it's a good deal!

[Bryan]

But these roads aren't public.

Your driveway is a private road. A highway is a public road.

[Oleg Bach]

Your driveway is a private road. A highway is a public road.

If we so much as kicked in ten bucks in taxes towards these so-called private roads then they are not fully private. The 407 was bought at a cut rate price by some guys out of France if I am correct - If we turned a profit on the sale - then it is theirs - If we did not turn a profit on the sale then the road is still ours in part - Here is how you figure it out - what did it cost to build and maintain and what did we sell it for. Getting tired of uppity privateers selling public property.

[geoffrey]

A marginal cost for users on a highway per trip is a better and more equitable way of running a highway. The public has no upfront cost in construction. And only those that use it, pay for it.

If you don't drive and are a more environmentally and socially concious public transit user (not me), why should you have to pay for drivers to get to work faster than you? That's not fair. It really isn't.

Pay per use makes sense!

Further, paying for something up front is a bigger hit to taxpayers. Taxpayers pay interest on the financing used to construct that road. Instead now, it's plowed into an equity return for the firm. Not to mention, there is now an efficency and performance incentive.

I can think of very few things that are more fair, equitable and common sense than privatization of roads.

[1967100]

Just got stung!

10 years ago I got a 407 transponder. I used it a few times and then due to job changes I didn't drive the 407 any more. So I tried to cancel my account.

At that time if you went to their website there was no link or mention at all as to how to cancel your account. I tried a few times to phone. It was a total joke. An automated receptionist that sent you round and round and eventually dumped the line. So I wrote out a letter, bundled it up with their transponder and sent it back to them by Puro.

I have not driven the 407 since, which is about 10 years.

Every so often they would send me bills! No tolls, of course. I never drove their highway. It was for the transponder. Once in a while I tried to phone and reach someone to clear it up but just got frustrated.

Eventually, I got put to a collection agency who kept phoning and phoning. By this time I was angry! The collection agency still didn't use a human being, just a recording.

Finally a human being called and I explained the whole matter. He cheerfully promised that if I just paid the ~$30 bill he would make sure the account was closed and things would go away. So like a fool, I paid him.

Of course, he just wanted the bill paid. Nothing changed as far as closing the account down.

Eventually the phone calls stopped. Once in a while I'd get a statement showing no tolls but more transponder charges. I just tossed them aside.

Finally I got another call at the start of the summer from a human being. I told the whole story yet again. She told me to fax it in writing to a specific number. I told them what 407ETR could do with their fax!

My first mistake. I assumed that the worst that could happen was I'd get called to court. I would have LOVED to tell my story to a judge!

Then one of the statements came registered mail. I ignored it.

My second mistake.

Today I went down to renew my car plates. I was told that I have to pay $220 in 407ETR fees or no plates! It seems that now MCGuinty's government has allowed 407ETR to do this, in effect punishing us BEFORE it is established that 407ETR is correct about a dispute!

I promptly drove over to my MPP's office, not a Liberal BTW. A very helpful lady called the 407ETR. SHE got to speak to a real person! There is a dispute process and it has been started. Meanwhile, if I want my plates I have to pay the money and trust that someday they will return it.

I heard a year or two ago that the 407ETR has over 800,000 billing disputes! I couldn't begin to count all the folks I know who have had a problem with them. I never believed a provincial government would allow them to use the plate renewal ministry as their collection agent. With all these disputes I thought it would be extremely dumb, politically! I guess I was wrong.

Anyhow, just a word to the wise. I'm sure there are others out there in a similar situation. Even though 407ETR is a private company, like any government department it's your problem and your time and effort required to correct their mistake, even if they won't respond to you anyway.

This highway collects the highest tolls in North America. It is a licence to print money. Now it has the provincial government as their enforcement agent.

Here is a link:

http://www.407etr.com/Products/platedenial.htm

This explains the legal decision to grant them this power. The reasoning appears to be to give them the power to force payment from delinquent accounts. There is a dispute mechanism but even if 407ETR is in the wrong it puts the onus of proof solely on the subscriber.

I'm not confident that if someone else has a dispute they can get it resolved. I'm just warning of what to expect when you go to renew your plates.

Needless to say, this is one more reason why I could never vote Liberal again!

This is why you take the 401.

[guyser]

A marginal cost for users on a highway per trip is a better and more equitable way of running a highway. The public has no upfront cost in construction. And only those that use it, pay for it.

Except for the fact the taxpayor did pay for it . All of it. At huge expense.

I can think of very few things that are more fair, equitable and common sense than privatization of roads.

Apply this to schools please.

[madmax]

I can think of very few things that are more fair, equitable and common sense than privatization of roads.

That's right.

If we enforce our laws, make certain all users pay up, and keep people named Wild Bill off the roads, then life is good for the road warrior.

[TammyFlores]

I just started a facebook group called "Stop the 407 ETR's Abuse of Power!" Please join and help me do something about their improper billing practices. The government has been aware for a long time about the issues, but acts helpless to do something. It's time they legislate! Please help bring change to the 407's ways!

[August1991]

I just started a facebook group called "Stop the 407 ETR's Abuse of Power!" Please join and help me do something about their improper billing practices. The government has been aware for a long time about the issues, but acts helpless to do something. It's time they legislate! Please help bring change to the 407's ways!

If you don't like the 407, don't drive on it. I don't live in Ontario but it doesn't take Facebook to make me understand this.

From what I understand, 407 offers a choice. (So let me add a partisan dig.) What Leftists fail to understand is that people are better off when they have more choices.

The freedom to choose is what makes people rich.

Edited May 15, 2010 by August1991

[TammyFlores]

If you don't like the 407, don't drive on it. I don't live in Ontario but it doesn't take Facebook to make me understand this.

From what I understand, 407 offers a choice. (So let me add a partisan dig.) What Leftists fail to understand is that people are better off when they have more choices.

The freedom to choose is what makes people rich.

Understand what you are saying. Some don't mind choosing to pay a bit for convience. Let's say you lived in Ontario and made the choice to pay a bit for convience and traveled on the 407. But you were never billed for one of your trips until 5 years later...by that time they've racked up interest and late fee. Would you have a problem with that? Let's take it a step futher and say you get a bill, out of the blue for hundreds or even thousands of dollars. There's no details, just an amount. Are you entitled to know what they are trying to bill you for? If you then realize they gave you someone else's bill/account... would you just pay it because they said so? OR would you want justification for what they are charging you for? This issue is not about choice, it's about an abuse of power.

Here in Ontario, the 407 can put you in plate denial if you don't pay their bill. The government will honor their request to deny your sticker just because the 407 says so. They don't have to provide proof that the bill actually exists. Is that OK? The government is on record of knowing about the problems that the 407 has with it's billing, but yet isn't doing anything about it. This is a gross abuse of power and shouldn't be allowed in Canada. The government is not helpless here. I believe that they, as landlords, have a responsibility to do something if the public is being harmed by their tenant. They have to stop passing the buck and fix the mess they caused.

People will say it was this government or that government's fault. I say the point is that there's a problem and it is the government's responsibility to stop turning a blind eye to it and do something about it. At the very lease they can tell the 407 that they need to give it's customers full disclosure and deal with them instead of abusing the power the government gave them.

[Topaz]

I live in southern part of Ontario and couple years back I had two of those notices come to me. I NEVER been to Toronto since the later 60's and even though is was my licence plate number, its wasn't on my car. This one was a honda and mine wasn't which they could check, and they dismissed it. Another time I got a letter with the same plate number on a car left in a apartment garage in TO and they were going to charge me for towing it. I tried talking to my local police but they couldn't help so I phone again and told them they had the wrong person and it was dropped. Thank God I haven't heard from them since.

[TammyFlores]

I live in southern part of Ontario and couple years back I had two of those notices come to me. I NEVER been to Toronto since the later 60's and even though is was my licence plate number, its wasn't on my car. This one was a honda and mine wasn't which they could check, and they dismissed it. Another time I got a letter with the same plate number on a car left in a apartment garage in TO and they were going to charge me for towing it. I tried talking to my local police but they couldn't help so I phone again and told them they had the wrong person and it was dropped. Thank God I haven't heard from them since.

These are the kind of stories I need to gather together to show the government that the 407 should submit the burden of proof before the government deny's a person's plate. Please join the facebook group "Stop the 407 ETR's Abuse of Power!" Even a news reporter I have been in touch with is frustrated. He said he hasn't seen such an abuse of power in the 25 years he was a reporter.

[treehugger]

If the 407 is private can someone please tell me why McGuintys government is going to extend the 407 highway to hwy 35 & 115?

This means that the taxpayer is going to pay for it.

Edited January 14, 2011 by treehugger

[Jack Weber]

The 407 to Lindsay and Peterborough?

[treehugger]

The 407 to Lindsay and Peterborough?

so the papers said.

[charter.rights]

The 407 will eventually be extended to Highway 35-155 (which leads to Lindsay and Peterborough)but for now it will only be extended as far as Simcoe Street in Oshawa.

[August1991]

I will go on the record as preferring private intercity highways.

We now have the low-cost technology to charge users for road use. IMV, large, heavy trucks who drive on highways should pay for their road use. Individuals who drive their cars on highways should also pay for this.

When I take the Metro in Montreal, I swipe my Opus card. Drivers should do the same when they drive on roads/highways.

----

In this 21st century, I am astonished that vehicle owners travel on roads without any payment. Is the Internet free?

[Shwa]

In this 21st century, I am astonished that vehicle owners travel on roads without any payment. Is the Internet free?

What the hell are taxes for?

[August1991]

What the hell are taxes for?

We all pay taxes. I refer to paying for the use of a road.

Shwa, why should a single mother without a car pay any taxes to maintain a roadway/highway so that a Westmount/Rosedale resident can drive their Mercedes S500?

IMV, we should charge car drivers for road use. The technology exists to do this. The 407 is an example and IMV, this technology will soon exist around the world.

[GostHacked]

Let us think for a moment what would happen if there was no cheap mechanism to recover unpaid charges.

The company would either have to enforce stricter access policies to the highway (ie the camera system which allows any car to enter would need to be changed). One possibility would be toll gates based which only allowed credit-approved drivers (ie one's carring transponders) to pass. Can you imagine the impact to traffic flow?

The other choice is that the company would have to hike rates to recover the increased recovery costs of having to take scofflaws to court and then collect. Those rates would impact all drivers on the 407,

Face it, it is in the interest of all drivers (except the scofflaws) to ensure that there is a cheap and efficient payment recovery mechanism for the 407 corporation.

You've already paid for the road in taxes. This company does not deserve squat. They should pay the government the cost of the road then they can charge a toll if they want. I doubt they paid any money to this hiway.