Health Minister Clement

[geoffrey]

We have an excellent system, when properly funded.

No it's actually amongst the worst systems in the world (all of Europe generally does way better than we do)... it prevents freedom of choice and runs with every inefficency that a government program could possibly do.

We don't have to look south to find how to change our system, it's best to look at Sweden, Norway or France and how well their systems work with a mix of free market and government enforced equality. Canada, Cuba and North Korea are among the only systems left with just government health care.

[mikedavid00]

No it's actually amongst the worst systems in the world (all of Europe generally does way better than we do)...

I agree.

it prevents freedom of choice and runs with every inefficency that a government program could possibly do.

I agree.

We don't have to look south to find how to change our system,

I think we have to. We don't have the money to fix our system. We just aren't rich enough.

it's best to look at Sweden, Norway or France and how well their systems work with a mix of free market and government enforced equality.

I disagree. Those countries do not have mass, mass immigration on the epidemic scales that we allow. If people are using the system that haven't paid into it, it wont work. We have 800,000 on a waiting list that the Liberals have left the CPC with.

Canada, Cuba and North Korea are among the only systems left with just government health care.

Told ya we were a dictatorship.

I think it's time we revamp some things. At this point it's not an option because we're heading for collapse. It won't happen over night. One day we'll all just wakeup and realize it has already collapsed.

I'm just trying my best here to send out the warnings so I can atleast say I did my party.

[geoffrey]

I disagree. Those countries do not have mass, mass immigration on the epidemic scales that we allow. If people are using the system that haven't paid into it, it wont work. We have 800,000 on a waiting list that the Liberals have left the CPC with.

Immigration isn't the biggest issue with health care by any stretch. Inefficency is clearly the biggest issue.

Told ya we were a dictatorship.

I really don't see how that makes any sense.

[mikedavid00]

Immigration isn't the biggest issue with health care by any stretch. Inefficency is clearly the biggest issue.

I highly disagree. We'll have to agree to greatly disagree on this.

Told ya we were a dictatorship.

I really don't see how that makes any sense.

You know, Korea, Cuba... Dictatoriships.. I've been saying for the last week that Canada is a dictatorship style gov't half jokingly. But in actuality if you look at our healthcare systems... hmmm..

[Saturn]

We have an excellent system, when properly funded.

No it's actually amongst the worst systems in the world (all of Europe generally does way better than we do)... it prevents freedom of choice and runs with every inefficency that a government program could possibly do.

We don't have to look south to find how to change our system, it's best to look at Sweden, Norway or France and how well their systems work with a mix of free market and government enforced equality. Canada, Cuba and North Korea are among the only systems left with just government health care.

Canada's health system is 30% private. Cuba and North Korea cannot be compared to what we have at all - health-care there is entirely managed by the government. One of the main problems with our health-care is that it is neither the feds, nor the provinces that manage it. It is the medical profession themselves. Hospitals are en large managed by doctors. I thought that doctors' specialty is medicine, not management but apparently they don't like the government interfering much with the actual delivery of health-care.

Of course we could look at Europe for some solutions but over there there is a lot more government involvement in the system. Here the government provides funding and then bargains with the medical profession to get some services delivered for it. The last time the Ontario government sat down with the medical association it went like "We want more doctors." "Ok, you give us a 5% raise and we'll give you 200 more doctors". With this type of system and half as many doctors per capita, we can't have what the Europeans do. The only thing we can have is what we currently have or what the Americans do.

[margrace]

Someone on here, obviously a Harris supporter, said that there is no shortage of nurses in Ontario Hospitals. That person has not been in our hospitals lately. If a family member goes into a hospital here you are well advised to have someone with them at least during the day. I know from experience, the management of some hospitals is atrocious.

Private companies supply the food which is inedible and is put out of reach of patients by these private people. We experienced that in Orillia hospital with my very sick father in law.

This is just one example we have experienced.

I have been in 4 hospitals during the last several years and found that one must have family members in there with one. Our Paliative care people will tell you the same thing. A huge percentage of nurses employed in some hospitals are causal or part time. These people work full time and are not offered full time jobs because that would mean the hospitals would have to pay benefits for them. How they get away with it is a mystery but I know from family experience that it is going on. They are very understaffed as well.

[jdobbin]

No it's actually amongst the worst systems in the world (all of Europe generally does way better than we do)... it prevents freedom of choice and runs with every inefficency that a government program could possibly do.

It depends on how people measure things whether they consider it the best or the worst. The Europeans complain their system doesn't meet needs either and governments look to add or cut accordingly. At one point the French government looked to cut the costs of aromatherapy which are covered under health. The public reacted in outrage and they had to restore it. Canadians would probably react with outrage if it was added.

Certainly Canada's system needs improvement but full American-style privatization sounds more expensive and less accessible than what we have now. Perhaps you are right that we should look at the Europeans or the Japanese. In the end, we'll have to do something right for Canadians though. It just probably won't meet with 100% satisfaction because it never does anywhere else either.

[guyser]

Exactly how does our health care system deny freedom of choice?

[mikedavid00]

Canada's health system is 30% private.

Please provide a cite for this.

After all, I've had to spend many hours researching my cites only to prove that each time I was right.

So please saturn, post a cite to this..

I'm waiting.

[madmax]

[

Provinces could fund their own system then.

Provinces do fund their own system. On top of that, if they want the Federal Government to give them money, they follow the guidelines of the CHA.

[madmax]

I am from Ottawa as of 2.5 years ago now residing in the GTA. I worked at the Department of National defence. I can tell you that all these gov't jobs are white collar welfare. We did absolutely nothing but take tax payers money.

What did you do at the DND and why are you no longer there?

[mikedavid00]

What did you do at the DND and why are you no longer there?

I was a software developer as a co-op student.

[madmax]

No it's actually amongst the worst systems in the world

We don't have to look south to find how to change our system, it's best to look at Sweden, Norway or France and how well their systems work with a mix of free market and government enforced equality.

Canada does not have one of the worst systems in the world. That said, my quote also points that we have an excellent health care system when properly funded. It isn't and hasn't been since 1989. Our system has at times been the envy of the world. It has decidedly went down the ladder. All political parties have examined socialist systems of Sweden, Norway and France. Provinces have all looked at it as well. Currently regardless of the system, Health Care funding in Canada needs to be restored, and that means the Federal Government has to step up and be a responsible participant in the Canada Health Act.

Now, choosing your poison of a Socialist Euro system, which isn't that far of a step from our current system hasn't been chosen by any province. So, sooner or later, one province will try this avenue, but it has been all talk for 20 years. It is not necessarily cheaper either, but may provide other benefits.

Unfortuneately you will be lucky to keep the current system and upgrade it, let alone make MAJOR changes to adapt to a European Socialist System.

We have recently choosen a cross between a British and American system. It was a short term fix in the UK and now is proving to be very costly.

The pressures from the US will make it difficult to maintain our current system let alone adapt a European system. US companies are parked on provincial government doorsteps to sell every item and run everything possible in the entire health system. The FTA will undermine any competitive advantage that publicly run establishments have over corporately run establishments. Once you open a market, you cannot protect it because it does things cheaper. Cost is not a factor in the FTA, only competition. Free access to the Market. Some services will be more cost effective, but other services will suffer terribly.

If Ontario is any indication, the food in many of the hospitals is neither nutrious let alone edible, since it has been contracted out to the lowest bidder.

So, I don't lose any sleep over change to a Euro system but I don't ever see it happening in Canda. I believe that the only way to prevent a UK model with US pressures is to maintain the current system we have, force the Feds to get back to 50/50 in spending on Health Care vs the 80/20 it is today (roughly, people can find the actual figures) . It isn't like the Federal Government is short on cash, they are holding the Provinces (OUR) money.Certainly a move toward greater federal funding will relieve alot of pressure on the Provinces. If it doesn't happen, you are going to see a US style health care system, and there is little any political party of any stripe will be able to do anything about.