Israel Defends Itself

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

Well said and almost correct. I have tremendous respect for the IDF and believe that they have one of the toughest jobs of any Armed Forces of ANY nation today. Not only that, they have taken tough moral stands against thier own government which sometimes has 'gone too far'. ( for example, the 'beating' orders and distribution of truncheons in 1988, where IDF soldiers were ordered to beat rioters, instead of shooting, to cause more pain, and less deaths. When the number and severity of beatings rose to certain untolerable proportions, one soldier remarked "What the hell did you think we were going to do with the clubs?")

Still, though, the IDF tried to combat violence to the best of their abilities, while still maintaioning basic levels of morality, something that the government did, at times, not even care about.

With regards to the rest of your post,

Now that the Cold War is over, the US is no longer fostering terror and oppression.

this is incorrect. Glad to see someone from the right admit to the fact that they were, however. The US will continue to foster anything that further's the US' interests, no matter what means.

[Hugo]

The US will continue to foster anything that further's the US' interests, no matter what means.

The interests of the US are freedom and prosperity for its people. This is as opposed to those regimes whose interests are the personal power and wealth of their leaders at the expense of the freedom and prosperity of their citizens. That is why so many millions want to emigrate to the US.

[FastNed]

Black Dog, I have watched/read the back and forth between you and Hugo and there was one point of yours that had some merit but you missed it - or at least the cause of it. While the Government of Israel is not 'expansionist', there is a real problem on the Settlement issue. There is a group of Ultra-Religious who believe that Israel must expand to include all the biblical lands and they are responsible for some of the settlements. I have no doubt that those Settlers involved in vigilante acts and these secret weapon stashes have connections on the Ultra-Religious end of the political/religious spectrum.

These people are the "Crazy Uncle" in the attic for Israeli politicians and are damned difficult to control. It's a curse of their particular form of Parliamentary Democracy. The Ultras always seem to get a handful of seats in Parliament and advance their causes by trading their support to form coalition governments and have made or brought down P.M.'s in the past. They are also the reason for some discriminatory laws against non-orthodox jews and christians.

But the problems these few create are insignificant in the larger picture which is that with every terrorist act against women and children, the Palestinians loose (in fact throw away) all reasons for anyone to support them and their cause.

There is a line which can not be crossed in any civilization and that line is crossed again and again when innocent women and children are targeted and killed. With that act, all possibility of discourse ends. Forever! That is America's position against these Islamic Fanatics and it should be Israel's against the terrorists who attack them. I suspect it would be had it not been for coercion and pressure from America. Those who target a peoples women and children are committing genocide or attempting to do so. Having crossed that line, the Palestinians have created the rules for this engagement and they should be treated as they deserve. Where I an Israeli, I would drive them into the sea, each and every one of them.

And if that makes me a primitive, barbaric American Cowboy - so be it! I get tired of saying this but if you wish to call the tune, you have to pay the Piper. So do not be surprised if Israel finally has enough and follows the rules of engagement established by the Palestinians. I would have done so long ago.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear FastNed,

Well said. Israel is indeed divided and sometimes the 'settlers' have created problems the IDF is ill-suited to handle.

And you are right, terrorism is an abomination. What do you suggest the palestinians try (terrorism was not their first attempt at defense) to stem 'settlements?

[FastNed]

I suggest the Palestinians try to act like responsible, civilized human beings.

Except for a propaganda ploy, "the Right of Return", they were offered everything they wished, and the rejection of these offers by their leadership made it quite plain - as they have repeatedly said in Arabic but not English - that their remaining goal is the total destruction of Israel and the death of all "Jews". Christian Arabs who don't get in line are promised the same fate.

Poll after poll, survey after survey makes plain that a majority of Palestinians support terrorist activities as sponsored by their leadership. Fifty years of brainwashing has been quite effective. In this respect, the Palestinians are once again the victims of the Arab World and are held in contempt by that world for being so stupid as to believe the garbage they have been feed. And of course, they have been turned into rabid creatures too damned dangerous to be allowed house room in any other Arab land.

Were it simply a matter of real estate, I would suggest that America purchase Baja California from Mexico and relocate Israel. That blessed (and seemingly accursed) Land is the Font of three of the major religions of the World and it is not merely 'location, location, location'! And as the "Jews" (like America) are the "Whipping Boy's" of the Arab World, their removal would stop nothing as the Islamic Leaders need someone to blame for their own failures. But were it to occur, we could then sit back and watch another Mid-East country turned into an Islamic slum. The more they listen to the fanatics within, the better they get at that.

I know the only answer but it is not one that I like or am comfortable with - but it is the only answer. Until enough Palestinians, terrorists and otherwise, are killed to convince them their only option is peace or death, there will be no solution. Palestinians deserve a home but until they opt for peace, they are entitled to exactly six feet of land - a grave.

Hard times make hard people make hard choices.

[Craig Read]

That is right Ned, but in the meantime the EU, the UN and even the US send about a billion a year to the PLA for various projects - and of course military purchases. Until Arafat is dead, the PLA reformed and the money transfers stopped, nothing will change there. Most Israeli's would willingly trade land for peace, but why should they, when they are fighting a war against an irrational and hate filled brainwashed enemy.

[cknykid]

The occupation of Palestine started with an ideology that denied the very existence of the Palestinian people and pursued a colonial agenda asserting divine claims to acquire the "land without the people." Still today, Palestinians have no state or conventional army. They are subjected to curfews, expulsions, home demolitions, legalized torture, and a wide variety of human rights violations. There is a glaring contrast between the level of official responsibility and the systematic nature of the violence exchanged between Palestinian individuals and the state of Israel. The media has attributed there search for freedom to “terrorism”, thus making the Palestinian the international prototype for the terrorist. This impression has shaped Western public consciousness and resulted in an international bias that tends to convey instances of violence against Palestinian civilians in neutral language, reducing Palestinian losses to mere statistics, while using emotional language and visuals to describe Israeli losses. The negotiations with Israel have given them nothing but promises of autonomy over there impoverishment, implementing what is acceptable to the mighty and treating facts established illegally as the basis for a settlement. Most missing in this peace process is an honest peace broker. The United Nations has been unable to take steps to ensure the implementation of Palestinian rights. The world has offered not a single remedy for the numerous wrongs Palestinians have endured; the American veto in the Security Council has been used repeatedly against the broad consensus calling for an international monitoring presence in the West Bank and Gaza. The relentless denial of Palestinian rights without an effective international response has left them acutely aware that self-help is there only hope. They are facing a brutal occupation with bare chests and empty arms. International law gives a people fighting an illegal occupation the right to use “all necessary means at their disposal" to end their occupation, and the occupied “are entitled to seek and receive support" (I quote here several United Nations resolutions). Armed resistance was used in the American Revolution, the Afghan resistance against Russia, the French resistance against the Nazis, and even in the Nazi concentration camps, or more famously in the Warsaw Ghetto. Palestinian resistance varies from that which is non-violent and widespread: simply continuing to live, study, pray and plant in occupied land despite all the odds, to active resistance and the use of violence. This violent resistance can be defensive (and to my mind morally acceptable), such as the resistance of the fighters of Jenin refugee camp as Israeli death machines approached, or in the form of unacceptable offensive acts, such as the bombing of Israelis celebrating a Passover meal. In all these cases, it is individuals that choose their form of resistance; the choices they make should not color the entire nation. And, as we have seen, both peaceful and violent resistance is met with profound state violence from the Israeli side. Violent resistance arises from an inhuman military occupation, one that levies punishment without fairness, denies the possibility of livelihood and diverts the prospects of a promising future. The Palestinian people have not gone to another people’s homeland to kill or dispossess. Their ambition is not to blow themselves up in order to terrify others. They are asking for what all other people have and deserve, a decent life in a homeland. What is most troubling about the critiques of there resistance is that they seem to care little about there suffering, the withholding of what they once possessed, and the violation of there most basic rights. Their murders leave those critics cold. There peaceful, everyday struggle to have a decent life leaves no impression. There is outrage and condemnation when some of them follow the instinct of retaliation and revenge. Israeli security is deemed more important than their livelihood; Israeli children more human than theirs; Israeli pain more inflammatory than theirs. They dismiss them as terrorists, enemies of human life and civilization. And so I emphasize. To submit to injustice is incompatible with psychological health. Resistance is a right, a duty and a remedy for the oppressed.

[FastNed]

I will say it again, directly to you, CK... The Palestinians have crossed the line of civilized behavior.

By their genocidal acts against Israeli women and children they have defined themselves - rabid animals with which no discourse is possible.

You do not engage in civilized discourse with a rabid animal - you put it down.

You do not negotiate or bargain with a rabid animal - you put it down.

You do not grant territory or make concessions to a rabid animal - you put it down.

And those who provide aid and comfort, shelter and support

for rabid animals - you put them down also.

If you are unable to differentiate between Palestinian attacks against the IDF and the random slaughter of women and children, I do pity you.

[Hugo]

As I have said, the Israelis are willing to give in to pretty much all Palestinian demands except the right of return, in order to have peace. The Palestinians refuse to accept those terms, but they should realise that demographically, Israel can never concede right of return without ceasing to exist. They probably do, of course, but this is just great for Arafat because as long as war rages he gets to make a personal profit and appear a saviour to his people, so a war that cannot be ended is in his interests. That's why Arafat won't accept Israeli terms.

The Palestinians do have a homeland - Jordan. Jordan will not grant them right of return, even though the Palestinians are actually Jordanian citizens by right, but nobody is pushing for a Palestinian right of return to Jordan, even though that demographic change would not be terribly upsetting. The Palestinian physical home is Palestine, but by this point the Israeli physical home is also Palestine, so we have a problem. However, the national Palestinian home is Jordan, so we do have a potential solution there as well.

Basically, the Palestinians want Israel to grant what they are unable to grant and to grant what another nation should grant, and as they won't, they are committed to a path of violence and terrorism thanks to the myopia and corruption of their leadership and the violent nature of their religious belief. This path, unfortunately, can only lead to their own destruction.

[SirRiff]

I will say it again, directly to you, CK... The Palestinians have crossed the line of civilized behavior.

By their genocidal acts against Israeli women and children they have defined themselves - rabid animals with which no discourse is possible.

but why couldnt you say that of American behavior during the last 50 years. installing dictators, trading arms with iraq and iran, supporting terrorist rebels, supporting the latin americans military regime and so on and so on.

the death and suffering and immorality is the same, and in fact far fewer deaths have been caused by suicide bombers then the weapons and dictators the US has used.

so why arent hte palestinians just resorting to the same violence that other strong nations have resorted to in secret?

both are evil, but i rarely see the widge bridge of morality seperating them.

the arabs just dont have good PR guys in suits.

SirRiff

[righturnonred]

Maybe my solution is oversimplified but I think Isreal should dismantle settlements in the West Bank and Gaza and then build an impenitrable wall around Isreal proper. If you were swiming in an ocean surrounded by sharks, wouldn't you want a diving cage. It would be a good idea to keep your arms inside that cage as well.

[Vercingetorix]

If Israel felt the Syrian camps presented a threat, there are ways to go about bringing the issue to the world's attention, outside of unilateral use of force.

You actually think the UN will ever listen to Israel? Israel is one of the better friends of the United States, and the UN will gladly pass up an opportunity to call attention to human rights abuses in favor of censuring the United States for spending another dollar on military budget instead of sending it to countries run by idiots, such as Zimbabwe.

[Vercingetorix]

I'm not even going to deal with cknykid.

Black Dog, however:

Well, they were. 

No, not really. If you want to know who was there first, go do archaeological digs in Israel. And deciding that there is a beginning only in recent history is a fallacy.

Sure. But pushing the population that was living there out into camps

Excuse me, the Palestinians were called Arabs until the 1960s. The neighbors of Israel throw these "pieces" (or tokens, because that is all they see them as) into refugee camps for the sole purpose of the political aspect of their war.

Yeah, except for the wars (like 1967) which Israel starts. Plus, when was the last Arab-israeli war?

Oh yeah, they started it, even though you could see the arab armies building up on the borders. Yeah, they started it; it doesn't matter that thee was going to be an invasion really soon.

Israel has been repeatedly censured for its continued occupation of the OT. (That's illegal occupation, BTW)

Why is illegal? Because those racists in the UN say it is?

Of course terrorism wouldn't stop overnight, as the more extremist elements will continue to oppose Israel's very existence.

The more extremist elements are far more populous than any "centrist" elements of the resistance to Israel.

However, the notion that the area was completely barren prior to the creation of Israel is revisionist bunk.

Ever read Exodus by Leon Uris? He describes what they did. The current occupants of the region had not exactly done anything to fix the desertification.

They are settling in illegally occupied land.

OK, I see this phrase a lot now in your posts. Define it so I can break your argument.

[Black Dog]

Do unto others. If Palestinian civilians are killed in the crossfire of the war that their leaders started, then the blame lies with their leaders for deliberately killing Israeli civilians and refusing all their peace offers. These were genuine offers and were fair. The fact is that Palestinian leaders are personally profiting from this war and thus are not about to end it, even if Israel concedes 95% of their demands (which they have).

Speaking of propaganda...

The Big Lie of Israel's apologists is that Arafat rejected the Camp David accors out of hand, despite Israel's generous offer. That is false. israel offered Palestine's leadership 22 percent of their historic homeland - they agreed to surrender the remaining 78 percent to Israel as part of the "Land-for-Peace" that Oslo promised. Camp David offered the Palestinians 91 percent of this 22 percent. The remainder would be carved up like a Tturkey and criss-crossed with an ever-growing network of settlements that would have divided the Palestinian territory into a series of isolated, unconnected reservations. The 91 percent offer to Palestine was simply this: three parcels of non-contiguous land, divested of prime agricultural real estate, diminished in water supply, surrounded by settlements with armed settlers and Israeli troops and totally sealed off from its current international borders. Some offer.

I don't believe for a split second that these Palestinian "civilians" being killed are anything other than 1) genuine collateral damage or 2) terrorists posing as civilians, paramilitaries preparing to commit acts of violence or "innocent" women and children who just so happen to be toting AK-47s.

What is "genuine collateral damage" anyway?

As for the rest of that issue, a cursory examination of the IDF's tactics, especially in recent "targetted killings" shows them to be either unwilling or unable to take the necessary steps to minimize civilian casualties. Tactics taht include firing a hellfire missle into rush hour traffic are as heavy-handed and deliberate as those employed by suicide bombers.

Now that the Cold War is over, the US is no longer fostering terror and oppression. They ended Saddam's evil regime in Iraq and the Taliban's evil regime in Afghanistan, and are probably setting up to end evil regimes in Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea and elsewhere - but you complain about that! There's just no pleasing some people

Oh yeah, everything's just peachy. Such expressions of childlike faith would really warm the cockles of the heart if people weren't still dying as a result of the U.S's realpolitik. We can see it today in Pakistan, Columbia, Saudi Arabia and a host of other brutal regimes that exist at the pleasure of the U.S.A. The hypocricy lives.

But the problems these few create are insignificant in the larger picture which is that with every terrorist act against women and children, the Palestinians loose (in fact throw away) all reasons for anyone to support them and their cause.

FastNed, while I applaud your willingness to aknoeledge the poisonous affect of certain exterimst elements in Israeli society, I find it interesting that you would write them off as "insignificant" (despite acknowledging that they play a key role is Iraeli politics) while tarring the Palestinian people with the same brush as extremists within that society. It's a double standard and it's a telling one.

Poll after poll, survey after survey makes plain that a majority of Palestinians support terrorist activities as sponsored by their leadership. Fifty years of brainwashing has been quite effective.

As have 50 years of oppression, humiliation and death. But then, it's always the other guy that's the problem, isn't it. I wonder what it's like to see the world in black and white.

Palestinians deserve a home but until they opt for peace, they are entitled to exactly six feet of land - a grave.

Again: why is the onus on the Palestinian people to make the first steps to peace? They are not the ones who are building settlements, wallas and continmuing to foster condition sof extreme hardship and suffering. They are burdened with a corrupt leadership, indiffernt neighbours and a total lack of the essentials of a civil society (education, a free press, etc.). How can they be expected to make strides when they are being kept down from all sides?

The Palestinians do have a homeland - Jordan. Jordan will not grant them right of return, even though the Palestinians are actually Jordanian citizens by right, but nobody is pushing for a Palestinian right of return to Jordan, even though that demographic change would not be terribly upsetting. The Palestinian physical home is Palestine, but by this point the Israeli physical home is also Palestine, so we have a problem. However, the national Palestinian home is Jordan, so we do have a potential solution there as well.

Most of the Palestinian people in the OT were either former residents of what is now Israel or their immediate descendants. Israel was founded by an influx of European Jews whose ancestral links to the homeland were, at best, spiritual. to frame this another way: how would you react if you were thrown out of yoyur home, dispossessed and driven out of the country by Canada's Native population (who, it could be argued, have more claim to this land than Eurpoes Jews did to Palestine)? If you were then told to move to the U.S.A. on the assumption that any land populated by white folks must be as good as any other, how would you react? Probably in much the same way as the Palestinians have, I'd wager.

[Hugo]

Such expressions of childlike faith would really warm the cockles of the heart if people weren't still dying as a result of the U.S's realpolitik. We can see it today in Pakistan, Columbia, Saudi Arabia and a host of other brutal regimes that exist at the pleasure of the U.S.A.

And Canada is a model of moral standards? From Trudeau, who had a fetish for Soviet Communism, to Chretien, who wants Bully-Boy Bush to leave the misunderstood torturer Saddam alone?

But as I said, the USA did some dubious acts in the Cold War. They are beginning to right their mistakes under Bush, however, and your reaction is "they should be doing more" and "they should be doing nothing" at the same time.

Tactics... include firing a hellfire missle into rush hour traffic.

Please provide the full details of this particular incident, with citation of sources.

how would you react if you were thrown out of yoyur home, dispossessed and driven out of the country by Canada's Native population?

Invalid analogy. What would be closer to the truth is if the Native Canadians threw European Canadians out of the Maritime provinces only. Where would they go? Back to the other provinces. The Palestinians have a homeland, and it is called Jordan. Why is there no international pressure on Jordan to allow the Palestinians to rejoin their countrymen, instead of dumping them all in UN-funded camps which are breeding-grounds for terrorists?

[Black Dog]

And Canada is a model of moral standards? From Trudeau, who had a fetish for Soviet Communism, to Chretien, who wants Bully-Boy Bush to leave the misunderstood torturer Saddam alone?

But as I said, the USA did some dubious acts in the Cold War. They are beginning to right their mistakes under Bush, however, and your reaction is "they should be doing more" and "they should be doing nothing" at the same time.

No Canada has much to answer for indeed. But our reach has never been, nor can ever be, as long as that of our southern neighbour.

Once again, you fall into the typical right wing trap of characterizing America's past (and ongoing) dalliances with dictators and thugs as simple foreign policy "mistakes", as opposed to intentional, deliberate actions borne of a cynical policy of realpolitik that lives on today. During the Cold War, such actions were generally conducted under the guise of fighting communism. No doubt today the boogey man is terrorism, but at the end of the day, it's U.S. interests that are served and not those of the people who must live with the regimes the U.S. props up.

Please provide the full details of this particular incident, with citation of sources.

My pleasure.

and another incident.

The Palestinians have a homeland, and it is called Jordan. Why is there no international pressure on Jordan to allow the Palestinians to rejoin their countrymen, instead of dumping them all in UN-funded camps which are breeding-grounds for terrorists?

I wonder how many Palestinians living in the camps have ever actually set foot in Jordan. Not many, i'd wager. It doesn't matter if they are "Jordanian" in your view or Martian: palestine was tehir homeland and Israel drove them from it and is not allowing them to return. Period.

[Hugo]

My pleasure.

So what really happened was, someone there was firing mortars at Israelis, the IDF sent a helicopter or two to investigate, one of which saw what he thought was the target and opened fire.

and another incident.

Here, the Israelis attempted to kill a leader of Hamas. In war, command/control structures and personnel are legitimate targets, according to the Geneva Convention. They hit their target, but unfortunately said target chose to hide himself amongst non-combatants and some were wounded and killed in the attacks.

What these stories tell me is that a war is going on, and it is one in which the enemy is cowardly enough to hide amongst non-combatants, basically giving the Israelis the choice between losing the war or causing collateral damage.

Some choice. For Israel, losing means their destruction, another Holocaust or at best, another Exodus, the dhimmi and so forth. They are not going to do that. Neither would you.

No doubt today the boogey man is terrorism, but at the end of the day, it's U.S. interests that are served and not those of the people who must live with the regimes the U.S. props up.

Your main problem with the US is that it looks after US interests? Well, duh! That is what every nation does. That's what the job of every government is. However, bearing in mind what the US stands for, I'd far rather that the US was calling the tune for the world than the Soviet Union, Red China, or the Islamo-Fascists.

The US has backed some dictators. It's also backed a lot of democracies - post-war Germany, Japan and Italy, South Korea, Israel, Britain and France, and indeed all recipients of Marshall Plan aid. However, it should be noted that the USSR (e.g.) never backed a democracy, always installed dictatorships, and always oppressed people in its homeland and in foreign satellites.

So to summarise, sure, the US has backed some dictators, financed some massacres and wars, but it's also done a lot of good in the world too. Its enemies, however, have done no good at all, and indeed, have been responsible for the vast majority of all the evil done in the 20th Century.

Israel drove them from it and is not allowing them to return.

For two reasons: 1) it would mean the end of Israel as an independent, democratic and Jewish state and 2) allowing Palestinians in would also mean allowing terrorists in.

[Black Dog]

So what really happened was, someone there was firing mortars at Israelis, the IDF sent a helicopter or two to investigate, one of which saw what he thought was the target and opened fire.

So they say.

What these stories tell me is that a war is going on, and it is one in which the enemy is cowardly enough to hide amongst non-combatants, basically giving the Israelis the choice between losing the war or causing collateral damage.

Some choice. For Israel, losing means their destruction, another Holocaust or at best, another Exodus, the dhimmi and so forth. They are not going to do that. Neither would you.

I'm sick of apologists desecrating the memory of the Shoah by using it to justify Israeli state terrorism today. The historical and contemporary persecution of the Jews is black mark on humanity. However, for Israel to employ the same methods that have been used against them in the past is just as loathsome. This is not a struggle for survival of the Zionist state: that battle has been fought and won. What we're talking now is good, old-fashioned ethnic cleansing.

Your main problem with the US is that it looks after US interests? Well, duh! That is what every nation does. That's what the job of every government is. However, bearing in mind what the US stands for, I'd far rather that the US was calling the tune for the world than the Soviet Union, Red China, or the Islamo-Fascists.

So the trampling of peace, justice, democracy, human rights and so forth is okay as long as it's done in the name of of peace, justice, democracy, human rights? I wonder how people like you sleep at night.

[Hugo]

What we're talking now is good, old-fashioned ethnic cleansing.

I don't see any evidence of that. What I see is Israel responding to incessant and underhanded terrorist attacks in the only way that they can, having tried the peaceful route and come up against a stonewalling and corrupt Palestinian leadership.

What cannot be denied (although you have tried, ironically) is that Israel never starts wars. All the Arab-Israeli wars were fought due to Arab aggression. The Israeli presence in Gaza and other Palestinian lands is due to incessant Palestinian terrorist attack upon Israelis.

And despite what you have tried to say, "who started it" is very important.

So the trampling of peace, justice, democracy, human rights and so forth is okay as long as it's done in the name of of peace, justice, democracy, human rights? I wonder how people like you sleep at night.

Except that those concepts are not being universally trampled. As I said, the US has had a hand in building or rebuilding a lot of genuine democracies and free societies. Her enemies have never done so. Good attempt at evasion, though.

Your arguments are bereft of sense and understanding, Black Dog. You've shown that you will only give the time to hear one side of the story, that you do not understand the history of the region or, indeed, history at all including basic concepts of historical analysis, and that you are not the slightest bit interested in learning the truth about anything. To the contrary, you have pre-judged both Israel and the USA and you are only interested in learning that which supports your prejudices. I have given examples of all these failings earlier in the thread.

I encourage you to visit this website. It is biased, but it will give you the Jewish and the Israeli opinion of the situation, and if you are going to give the Palestinian movements the time of day, you should at least be prepared to learn the opinions of their enemies too.

[Black Dog]

I don't see any evidence of that. What I see is Israel responding to incessant and underhanded terrorist attacks in the only way that they can, having tried the peaceful route and come up against a stonewalling and corrupt Palestinian leadership.

Or one could say that Israel is using terrorist attacks prompted by their continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip as a means of accelerating their expansion into those territories to advance a virulent nationalist agenda promoted by the likes of Likud and etremist elements within Israeli society.

What cannot be denied (although you have tried, ironically) is that Israel never starts wars. All the Arab-Israeli wars were fought due to Arab aggression. The Israeli presence in Gaza and other Palestinian lands is due to incessant Palestinian terrorist attack upon Israelis.

It's been 35 years since Israel captured this territroy. Why are they still there?

Except that those concepts are not being universally trampled. As I said, the US has had a hand in building or rebuilding a lot of genuine democracies and free societies. Her enemies have never done so. Good attempt at evasion, though.

Right back at you. So is there a scorecard that you use to know that your side is in the right? "Societies trampled" versus "societies rebuilt"? As long as the U.S. (in your view) stays slightly ahead on the other side of the ledger, there's really no abuse you are unwilling to overlook.

Your arguments are bereft of sense and understanding, Black Dog. You've shown that you will only give the time to hear one side of the story, that you do not understand the history of the region or, indeed, history at all including basic concepts of historical analysis, and that you are not the slightest bit interested in learning the truth about anything. To the contrary, you have pre-judged both Israel and the USA and you are only interested in learning that which supports your prejudices. I have given examples of all these failings earlier in the thread.

I would suggest you take a look at your own posts. If you could stop patting yourself on the back long enough, you can see thatwe've been having this discussion for a few days now, during which time you've merely spouted the same one-sided rhetoric without a single solitary concession that your viewpoint is the absolute truth (from God's mouth to your ear, no doubt). I've been willing to concede that terrorism is indeed a problem, that the Palestinian people have been betrayed by their own leaders and the leaders of the other Arab nations in the region and that the only way to stop the terror and strife is for Palestinians to be given the tools to build a civil society. You, on the other hand, refuse to acknowledge any wrongdoing or, indeed, the remote possibility of wrong doing by your white hats in Likud and the White House. Instead, you hide behind bogus statements concerning the survival of Israel and culpability of the Palestinians (echoing Golda Meir's statement that (and I'm paraphrasing) Israel can never forgive the Palestinians for forcing them to kill their sons (as though the palestiniansd bear sole responsibility for their own situation and were never acted upon by external forces). In your view, the truth is whatever you say it is. And you have the nerve to lecture me about balance. Save it.

[Hugo]

Well, Blackdog, I gave you the opportunity to learn more about the other side of this debate, and you rejected it out of hand. Since you have told me that you are unprepared to hear both sides of the argument, I can only conclude that you have absolutely no objectivity, and thus further debate with you is pointless. I haven't conceded anything to you in this debate not because I'm unable to, but because I haven't found that anything you've said has been sufficiently true or informed enough to sway my opinion.

Notice that for every point you have, I have a counterpoint, and where you have conceded items or just dropped them entirely after I countered them, I haven't found a point of yours that I cannot readily answer.

As to whether or not I consider both sides, I have. However, I have my information from an Arab village I visited while in the region, first-hand, as opposed to whatever MSNBC or the Guardian choose to tell you. I would relate what I learnt to you, however, I don't believe you'd listen or take it seriously so I won't waste my time.

[Black Dog]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, Blackdog, I gave you the opportunity to learn more about the other side of this debate, and you rejected it out of hand. Since you have told me that you are unprepared to hear both sides of the argument, I can only conclude that you have absolutely no objectivity, and thus further debate with you is pointless. I haven't conceded anything to you in this debate not because I'm unable to, but because I haven't found that anything you've said has been sufficiently true or informed enough to sway my opinion.

Please, spare me the martyr routine. I perused the link you provided and am already well-versed in the other side (one has only to pick up a newspaper in order to be inundated with "your" side of the story). Really, I've heard all your lines a million times before this and can recognize when someone is debating on principles and when someone is coming from a position of raw emotion and mounting knee-jerk, idealogivcal defense. You are definitely in the latter category.

Notice that for every point you have, I have a counterpoint, and where you have conceded items or just dropped them entirely after I countered them, I haven't found a point of yours that I cannot readily answer.

Whether your answers are remotely conected with reality is another matter...

As to whether or not I consider both sides, I have. However, I have my information from an Arab village I visited while in the region, first-hand, as opposed to whatever MSNBC or the Guardian choose to tell you. I would relate what I learnt to you, however, I don't believe you'd listen or take it seriously so I won't waste my time.

Oh, the burden you carry. So much knowledge, so underappreciated....

Funny how one (alleged) visit to an Arab village trumps a range of opinions and ideas gleaned from across teh region. That'as the beauty of mass media: it allows one to make judgements and form opinions based on a variety of perspectives, rather than the predjudices of experience.

[righturnonred]

Hugo,

Save yourself the headache and stop wasting your time.

This situation represents the enevitable conclusion to a debate with a liberal. At some point you just have through up your hand and say, "thats it, you can't say I didn't try"

Blackdog,

Yes, the Palestinians are subjected to repression at the hands of Isrealis, and yes the Isrealis should dismantle the jewish settlements. But, the Palestinians can choose to stop the repression and begin rebuilding there society. How? stop the incesent terrorist attacks. No matter how much wrong doing you percieve on behalf of the Isrealis, you cannot equate collateral casualties with the intentional slaughter of random innocent civilians. The palestinians choose not to join the human race not because they have no alternative to combat Isreali agression, but because their true goal is to literally drive Isreal into the sea. They don't want to negotiate, they don't want to live in peace with jews, they want to kill jews, they want them gone from the face of the planet, that is all. How many cease fires have been broken unilaterally by Palestinian suicide bombings?

And I'm sure I've just wasted my time.

[cknykid]

Is this the first chapter of""how to be a good wife in a forced rape marriage".

[KrustyKidd]

No CK, it's common sense. Something that is lacking on the Palestinian side.