Israel

[BC_chick]

Tim, there is no contradiction. Read my post again

Argus, the answer to your question was answered in 2 and 3 but just a further clarification, I don't believe Israel's actions are self defence. Israel has placed gaza in an illegal blockade and then goes on a random killing spree. They accuse Hamas of killing civilians but the only difference is that Israel actually has the means to carry it out.

That's collective punishment, not self defence.

I'm not sure if CC was in character or not when he said earlier in the thread that killing someone over a fence dispute is wrong. Well I disagree this is fence dispute. It's more like holding someone hostage in their own home and not providing them with adequate means of survival.

At this point it's debatable whether or not a hostage is acting in self defence or not by shooting at the hostage taker but even if you consider it murder, it's definitely NOT ok to chase the murder down in a crowded street and shoot randomly.

If the murderer hides behind innocent people you still have a moral obligation not to kill them. God forbid they risk soldiers so instead they bomb into civilian populations from air and sea killing 1000 Palestinians who are trapped with no means to escape. Their lives apparently mean nothing.

It's blatant disregard for human life. Especially more unsettling given their own blockade which leaves the people destitute. Right to defend myself is the biggest sham piece of propaganda that there ever was.

Edited July 28, 2014 by BC_chick

[Hal 9000]

Tim, there is no contradiction. Read my post again

Argus, the answer to your question was answered in 2 and 3 but just a further clarification, I don't believe Israel's actions are self defence. Israel has placed gaza in an illegal blockade and then goes on a random killing spree. They accuse Hamas of killing civilians but the only difference is that Israel actually has the means to carry it out.

That's collective punishment, not self defence.

I'm not sure if CC was in character or not when he said earlier in the thread that killing someone over a fence dispute is wrong. Well I disagree this is fence dispute. It's more like holding someone hostage in their own home and not providing them with adequate means of survival.

At this point it's debatable whether or not a hostage is acting in self defence or not by shooting at the hostage taker but even if you consider it murder, it's definitely NOT ok to chase the murder down in a crowded street and shoot randomly.

If the murderer hides behind innocent people you still have a moral obligation not to kill them. God forbid they risk soldiers so instead they bomb into civilian populations from air and sea killing 1000 Palestinians who are trapped with no means to escape. Their lives apparently mean nothing.

It's blatant disregard for human life. Especially more unsettling given their own blockade which leaves the people destitute. Right to defend myself is the biggest sham piece of propaganda that there ever was.

So, if there was no civilian casualties, what side would you be on?

[jacee]

There are no sides.

Both have to win.

Fair tactics are the issue.

Slaughter of civilians is pretty disgusting.

[Hal 9000]

There are no sides.

Both have to win.

Fair tactics are the issue.

Slaughter of civilians is pretty disgusting.

OK, you're obviously pro-Hamas, you've made that clear. I shouldn't have used the word "side"...I suppose.

But, the question remains - and it's for anyone to answer, If the casualty numbers were equal and the tactics were equal, would you be as much against Israel as you are?

P.S - You still haven't answered my last question.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Hal 9000

[Rue]

BC Chick thanks for answering. Where we agree is neither of us believes the current status quo in GAza or the West Bank is doing anything but dehumanizing Palestinians and creating an incubator for more terrorists,

I really only have one issue with what you said and I will tell you why it frustrates me. Abbas actually does not support a Jewish state of Israel.Just the exact opposite. He has stated repeatedly to the Arab media he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state and will only recognize it once a majority of Muslims self identified as Palestinian are allowed to return and be granted citizenship so that they can vote to turn the state into a Sharia law state.

You have to actually read what he says. When he did state to the Western press he would recognize Israel he attached to that recognition the precondition that the recognition would only come about once any Muslim referring to himself or herself as Palestinian would be allowed to enter Israel and be given citizenship.

That is a crucial fact to point out because he's playing, Its a code phrase for dismantling Israel as a Jewish state and returning it to a Muslim state.

The PA Charter calls for a shari law nation not just on the West Bank but in Israel according to Abbas. Read what he has said in his own media about that..He stood up in his assembly cheering a fellow PA member chanting death to Israel.

He has stated repeatedly there is no Jewish temple in Israel and Jews made it up. This is a man who wrote a Ph.d thesis in Moscow denying the holocaust happened and if you actually read it, its a joke. It contains no footnotes. Its a running diatribe of opinion with no references.

Its frustrating because if you think Abbas wants to live side by side a Jewish state you are wrong. The only difference between his beliefs and Hamas are that Hamas believes in physical violence, Abbas advocates using words to wear down Israel and using dialogue as a cover for terrorism.

In the Middle East every terrorist organization has a political wing and a militia wing. It enables Abbas to wear suits and walk and talk like a politician while his fellow members in Fatah embrace terror and he can distance himself from them.

The fact is the PA has terrorist wings just like Hamas has its terrorist wing and no different than the IRA had a political wing and a terrorist wing.

It was until the terror wing of the IRA disarmed peace talks could arise.

I believe we are far away from a time when Palestinian political groups would consider disarming. They are no where near the same psychological level the IRA was at when they disarmed.

All I ask is that you consider that, There is no one on the Palestinian side right now who wants to talk peace.

As for the Israeli side? I can only tell you this. The same Netanyahu who I never supported and called a right wing intolerant, confronted his own Likud party and said their rejection of a two state solution was not reasonable. He also welcomed into his coalition members of the Labour and Kadima parties who I support and were criticizing him as being rigid and intolerant.

He sits next to Tzip Levni who I support. She is no lover of Netanyahu but this is the kind of man he is, he puts his opposition at the same table as him and listens to all sides of the arguments.

He is a tough man yes. He is never going to give in to terrorists ever but you show him a moderate-someone who is willing to disarm and talk peaceful co-existence, he will meet them and talk. He was ready to put out settlements and confront his own Likud supporters but was undermined by Abbas and John Kerry.

Israel does make mistakes. It has added to the impasse and cycle of violence with certain actions it has undertaken on the West Bank but to be able to convince it to take yet another chance for peace we need to find someone. Its not Hamas. Its not Abbas. It needs to come from the next generation of Palestinians who are not afraid of Western values, Jews or Israelis and who do not embrace extremist Muslim beliefs.

There are moderate Palestinians and Israelis in your age group we need to get to speaking to one another. My generation its too late I fear.

[jacee]

OK, you're obviously pro-Hamas, you've made that clear. I shouldn't have used the word "side"...I suppose.

But, the question remains - and it's for anyone to answer, If the casualty numbers were equal and the tactics were equal, would you be as much against Israel as you are?

P.S - You still haven't answered my last question.

I wouldn't be so disgusted with Israel, no. The slaughter of children is unconcionable.

I would still support a free and independent Palestine and Israel lifting the seige and withdrawing from settlements.

.

Edited July 28, 2014 by jacee

[Bonam]

But, the question remains - and it's for anyone to answer, If the casualty numbers were equal and the tactics were equal, would you be as much against Israel as you are?

I wouldn't be so disgusted with Israel, no.

I see. So the thing that would make you less disgusted with Israel is more dead Jews.

[Argus]

Argus, the answer to your question was answered in 2 and 3 but just a further clarification, I don't believe Israel's actions are self defence. Israel has placed gaza in an illegal blockade and then goes on a random killing spree. They accuse Hamas of killing civilians but the only difference is that Israel actually has the means to carry it out.

Israel 'accuses' Hamas of killing civilians but Israel 'actually' has the means to carry it out?

You are basically saying Hamas, a terrorist organization, is not responsible for attacking or killing civilians. Which is a lie.

You are also excusing the thousands of rockets fired into Israel, basically dismissing that entirely, along with their refusal to stop, as if it didn't even happen, while accusing Israel of a 'random killing spree', as if there was nothing motivating their actions over the past few weeks but a desire to kill Arabs.

And people wonder why there is a suggestion that some here support Hamas.

[Argus]

BC Chick thanks for answering. Where we agree is neither of us believes the current status quo in GAza or the West Bank is doing anything but dehumanizing Palestinians and creating an incubator for more terrorists,

I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think that. The problem is what to do about it given the intractability of the two sides.

Nor is this a case of Hamas acting on its own without the support of its people. As far as I've been able to read the population in Gaza fully supports Hamas' actions. Which is weird. It's like there's this vast disconnect between their enthusiastic support for firing rockets into Israel, and the Israeli missiles coming back, as if they don't realize one is bringing the other, or simply don't care.

[Argus]

I wouldn't be so disgusted with Israel, no. The slaughter of children is unconcionable.

You realize how dumb that is? You're angry that Israel has better weapons, organization, and protection for its people. It's a nation state. OF COURSE it has better weapons, organization and protection!

But the aim of their attack on Palestine is not 'an eye for an eye'. It seems you expect them to ignore the incoming fire until it kills someone, and only then fire back, and only fire back until they kill a Palestinian, then stop. No nation on Earth would react like that, including ours. They will keep attacking until the firing into Israel stops. Period.

[jacee]

I see. So the thing that would make you less disgusted with Israel is more dead Jews.

No dead children is what I'd like to see.

But carry on twisting ...

.

Edited July 28, 2014 by jacee

[Keepitsimple]

There are no sides.

Both have to win.

Fair tactics are the issue.

Slaughter of civilians is pretty disgusting.

Your wooly-headed thinking is precisely what Hamas counts on - and your disgust should be directed towards them. With absolutely no concern for their own children, Hamas store and fire rockets from schools and other places that can solicit outrage in the media. You've been shown before - Israel goes above and beyond to notify civilians that their buildings are being targeted - but Hamas encourages children and adults to stay in these same targets. Israel does not have any other means of retaliation against the hundreds, if not thousands of rockets being fired at it. Hamas is encouraging the killing of their own people - precisely to gain the outrage of the ill-informed. Disgusting is right.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[Black Dog]

I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think that. The problem is what to do about it given the intractability of the two sides.

Nor is this a case of Hamas acting on its own without the support of its people. As far as I've been able to read the population in Gaza fully supports Hamas' actions. Which is weird. It's like there's this vast disconnect between their enthusiastic support for firing rockets into Israel, and the Israeli missiles coming back, as if they don't realize one is bringing the other, or simply don't care.

You'd be hard pressed to get a actual read on this because anyone who publicly criticizes Hamas is likely to get a knock on the door at midnight and they damn well know it.

[jacee]

Your wooly-headed thinking is precisely what Hamas counts on - and your disgust should be directed towards them. With absolutely no concern for their own children, Hamas store and fire rockets from schools and other places that can solicit outrage in the media. You've been shown before - Israel goes above and beyond to notify civilians that their buildings are being targeted - but Hamas encourages children and adults to stay in these same targets. Israel does not have any other means of retaliation against the hundreds, if not thousands of rockets being fired at it. Hamas is encouraging the killing of their own people - precisely to gain the outrage of the ill-informed. Disgusting is right.

Let me get this straight: You believe that it's ok for Israel to murder hundreds of children to get at the rockets that are doing very little damage to Israel.

Do you even hear yourself?

.

[bush_cheney2004]

Interesting logic..so it would be OK to "murder" only the adults instead ? Israel has the "legal" right to defend itself in the present manner as long as it is not specifically targeting civilians and takes steps to minimize civilian casualties.

[jacee]

Interesting logic..so it would be OK to "murder" only the adults instead ? Israel has the "legal" right to defend itself ...

That remains to be seen, when the matter goes to the International court.

.

[bush_cheney2004]

That remains to be seen, when the matter goes to the International court.

.

Bring it....Canada and the U.S. have certainly "murdered" children in past military interventions....haven't heard "Boo" from the ICC.

[Hal 9000]

Your wooly-headed thinking is precisely what Hamas counts on - and your disgust should be directed towards them. With absolutely no concern for their own children, Hamas store and fire rockets from schools and other places that can solicit outrage in the media. You've been shown before - Israel goes above and beyond to notify civilians that their buildings are being targeted - but Hamas encourages children and adults to stay in these same targets. Israel does not have any other means of retaliation against the hundreds, if not thousands of rockets being fired at it. Hamas is encouraging the killing of their own people - precisely to gain the outrage of the ill-informed. Disgusting is right.

Yes, what Jacee doesn't understand is that she's the one being led down the garden path by Hamas. She is sympathizing with them because they are putting their children in harms way and manipulating the media to photograph it. Everyone says Hamas is winning the PR war, why? because numbskulls by into it. Hey Jacee, you want save Palastinian children, stop supporting what Hamas is doing. Hamas thrives on the heartstrings of young western leftist women.

[Bob Macadoo]

Yes, what Jacee doesn't understand is that she's the one being led down the garden path by Hamas. She is sympathizing with them because they are putting their children in harms way and manipulating the media to photograph it. Everyone says Hamas is winning the PR war, why? because numbskulls by into it. Hey Jacee, you want save Palastinian children, stop supporting what Hamas is doing. Hamas thrives on the heartstrings of young western leftist women.

So when Assad did it it (bomb public areas to get at terrorists....I mean freedom fighters) killing innocents being used as cover was barbaric, but it is justified neccessity for Netanyahu. Just for the record Netanyahu != Assad.

[cybercoma]

That remains to be seen, when the matter goes to the International court.

.

The "matter" won't be going to international court because the court is voluntary.

[ironstone]

Let me get this straight: You believe that it's ok for Israel to murder hundreds of children to get at the rockets that are doing very little damage to Israel.

Do you even hear yourself?

.

Please enlighten us,how should the IDF tackle the problem of Hamas launching rockets from hospitals,schools etc?

Explain,step by step,what the IDF should do?

[Argus]

So when Assad did it it (bomb public areas to get at terrorists....I mean freedom fighters) killing innocents being used as cover was barbaric, but it is justified neccessity for Netanyahu. Just for the record Netanyahu != Assad.

Are the Israelis dropping barrel bombs onto markets? Are they using poison gas? From what I've seen they politely call and tell people to move first. I don't think any reasonable person can compare this to how Assad's forces act in Syria, or, for that matter, the way Russian forces acted in Chechnya, using large scale artillery bombardments of civilian areas to slaughter everyone in a given area.

[Argus]

Please enlighten us,how should the IDF tackle the problem of Hamas launching rockets from hospitals,schools etc?

Explain,step by step,what the IDF should do?

I think surrendering is what most of them would advise, then leaving Israel to its 'rightful owners'.

[GostHacked]

Are the Israelis dropping barrel bombs onto markets? Are they using poison gas? From what I've seen they politely call and tell people to move first. I don't think any reasonable person can compare this to how Assad's forces act in Syria, or, for that matter, the way Russian forces acted in Chechnya, using large scale artillery bombardments of civilian areas to slaughter everyone in a given area.

Iraq?

[Argus]

Iraq?

Where's that? Anything going on there? Haven't heard a thing. Must be very peaceful there or I'm sure we'd have heard something.