Liberal linguistic problems

[Leafless]

If the Liberals are unable to promote bilingualism by example in actual practice, then how to you expect average Canadians ever to become bilingual?

Even Stephane Dion was slipping into English.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...b34&k=63452

[M.Dancer]

Désolé, qu'a-t-il dit ?

[M.Dancer]

Comme j'ai suspecté

An informal poll of some of the 500 delegates in the hall confirmed that candidates Michael Ignatieff, Bob Rae and Joe Volpe can to hold their own in their second language, Gerard Kennedy and Scott Brison are not too bad, but the rest should go back to school.

The language problem was hard to miss. The only times when some of them made sense was when they slipped into English out of desperation. Dion seemed sensitive to the reality as well, slipping into English more than a few times.

Je suspecte qu'il ait glissé en anglais comme courtoisie aux autres

[Leafless]

It seems some francophone's assume 'commercially obsolete French' is the 'official language' throughout Canada being on the same level as English the international language of the world and used commercially throughout the U.S. and Canada.

CSIS could have valid linguistic complaints as proven by this type of linguistic animosity demonstrated by this particular member in this very thread.

[watching&waiting]

Being that the Liberals will not be very popular in Quebec no matter who gets in as leader, the language issue then is a little less compelling. For the most part it would be nice for party leaders who may one day become PM, it is a good thing to be bilingual, but that shoudl not stop any truly qualified candidate from seeking the position. In Ottawa you will find that french is spoken more in government then english and you need to express your wish for english as you are almost certainly going to be greeted in French. You will find that even english spoken in some departments is very broken english. It is not to say though that you can not get service in english just that you will have to make it clear you want it.

That is part of the problem you will find when two official languages exist. Even though less then 20% of Canadians are french speaking, yet it seems to be the dominant language of the government.

[Charles Anthony]

If the Liberals are unable to promote bilingualism by example in actual practice, then how to you expect average Canadians ever to become bilingual?

Comment?? Ils vont changer de 180degres leur strategie: ils acheteront les votes des reste-of-Canadiens qui deteste le bilinguisme.

Un dirigeant de parti liberal non-bilingue sera le meilleur candidat pour attirer les uni-glotto-Canadiens.

[Leafless]

That is part of the problem you will find when two official languages exist. Even though less then 20% of Canadians are french speaking, yet it seems to be the dominant language of the government.

Where are your statistics to verify your statement.

Hearsay does not establish fact.

Here are the results of an older survey that establishes 72% of francophone's are in bilingual positions. It would be understandable that the dominant language among these francophone's would be French in certain areas of government. It also states only 2.6% of francophone's use French in carrying out their duties.

This survey is complex and confusing and does nothing to justify federal 'official bilingualism' but does show how problematic two languages are in government.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/dcgpubs/...p#_Toc433436159

[watching&waiting]

Leafless I am not getting this from statistics, but rather from being here in Ottawa everyday and having to deal with government dept. every day. I did this as employment when going to college. I was a courrier for the Secretary of State. I delivered to all dept during this time and I can tell you that french is the language greeted in 90% of the time. If you do not believe me pick a floor of any government office building and if you stand there and listen you will here just about all the people talking in French to one another etc. The stat you say that only 2.6 % work in french is totally laughable as per my own experience. Now mind you this was 15 years ago that I did this job, but I am sure it has not changed.

[M.Dancer]

If the Liberals are unable to promote bilingualism by example in actual practice, then how to you expect average Canadians ever to become bilingual?

Comment?? Ils vont changer de 180degres leur strategie: ils acheteront les votes des reste-of-Canadiens qui deteste le bilinguisme.

Un dirigeant de parti liberal non-bilingue sera le meilleur candidat pour attirer les uni-glotto-Canadiens.

True but the fact remains that no party without significant representation in Quebec can hope for a majority. That is why Harper spoke French when ever and where ever possible. The result was the surprising defeat of the liberals at the expense of the blocheads.

[Charles Anthony]

True but the fact remains that no party without significant representation in Quebec can hope for a majority.

I was just being silly. In my view, political parties will doing anything regardless of whether it vastly differs from their past history or platforms. I laugh at the last election: who would have imagined both the Liberals and the Tories both wanting to cut taxes?

However, you are absolutely right: a majority federal historically needs Quebec. Even though technically, it is certainly possible to lose every seat in Quebec but also win enough seats elsewhere to gain a mojority.

Until the Bloc and the Reform parties came around, I suspect the reason might be that the demographic-political distribution and how they vote throughout Quebec is closer to that of the whole country moreso than any other province. Similar to how an American marketing company will release a new product only in Canada and a select few States for a test period to extrapolate predictions of how the entire U.S.A. will receive the product. Quebec voting could be a best representative sample for the entire country.

That is why Harper spoke French when ever and where ever possible. The result was the surprising defeat of the liberals at the expense of the blocheads.

Do you really think that Quebeckers said: "Ah ha! He speaks French, therefore I will vote for his party!" rather than saying: "Le Bloc and the Liberals do not deserve my vote."? For years and years, I have heard people say that Quebeckers vote en masse as if they were one great big family. Today, I really suspect that argument is wearing thin.

[M.Dancer]

I was just being silly. In my view, political parties will doing anything regardless of whether it vastly differs from their past history or platforms. I laugh at the last election: who would have imagined both the Liberals and the Tories both wanting to cut taxes?

The Liberals had cut taxes in the past umpteen budgets....what was surprising is once the Harperites got elected they raised taxes....

[M.Dancer]

Do you really think that Quebeckers said: "Ah ha! He speaks French, therefore I will vote for his party!"

No certainly not. But the fact remained that Harper could speak directly to Quebecers without be translated, paraphrased or misinterpreted.....that surprised Quebecers I believe...who perhaps viewed the CPC as the illigitimate offspring of the western quebcec phobic reform party.....and that cause them to say, lets listen, lets take him seriously. While Quebecers abandoned the Libs in droves, the Blocs appeal is still large and everyone including duceppe was astounded that they didn't pick up the lionshare of the liberla votes. And that laurel can be place directly on Harper's lap.*

*how it pains me to give harper credit.....pains me........the horror......

[Charles Anthony]

The Liberals had cut taxes in the past umpteen budgets....what was surprising is once the Harperites got elected they raised taxes....

Granted. However, who would imagine them arguing face to face about lowering taxes!

and that cause them to say, lets listen, lets take him seriously.

That is an important point.

In that context, the Liberal leadership race with such high-profile people who CAN NOT speak French makes them look completely ridiculous, uncivilized, disrespectful and out of touch. Worse yet, it makes them look like megalo-maniacs.

[M.Dancer]

The Liberals had cut taxes in the past umpteen budgets....what was surprising is once the Harperites got elected they raised taxes....

Granted. However, who would imagine them arguing face to face about lowering taxes!

and that cause them to say, lets listen, lets take him seriously.

That is an important point.

In that context, the Liberal leadership race with such high-profile people who CAN NOT speak French makes them look completely ridiculous and out of touch. Worse yet, it makes them look like megalo-maniacs.

As a long time liberal supporter.....there isn't anyone I would want to get behind....even my own MP, Dr Bennet leaves me cold.....

Now if Pettigrew would have run and won the election and became PM....at least there was the possiblity of Bush mistaking him for John Larroquette......

Pettigrew

Larroquette

[geoffrey]

If the Liberals are unable to promote bilingualism by example in actual practice, then how to you expect average Canadians ever to become bilingual?

Your big mistake and I think the reason for your consistant hate of French Canada is that you believe your being forced to become bilingual. I don't think that's the policy or view of anyone in Canada. Speak what you wish, I see lots of people that don't even speak English or French here, I'm sure it doesn't matter.

[watching&waiting]

I guess this is going to sound more like a statement about why have bilingualism then about the liberals having some leader hopefuls not able to get on well in french, but I guess I would throw in in here anyways, as the topic seems to be going that way. The most used language in business around the world is English, and that is just what it is, not something that made it so. The French people around the world have many places where the official language is french, but once again much of the business done with these nations is done in english. I suppose that most countries have english as a second language in the schools or something to that affect, because it is not due to there being more english then other races etc.

Here in Canada I can go anywhere and get by with my english, except for some areas of Quebec, where French is so engrained that it is almost exclusively spoken. But these are small areas, and I know enough french to stumble through, but it is easy to see I struggle with that language. I get my point across but I get alot of smiles for all the mistakes I make in doing so. My wife who is french will sometimes laugh outright at some things, but that is for another time. Being an English Canadian, I can travel to almost every corner of the globe and be able to speak to people and be understood. Those who are french only are limited to where they can go and be understood and I find those who are french are usually pretty rude at the best of times and down right rude when they have problems.

I know Canada has two official languages, but face it English is the main language no matter what Quebec does to try and stamp it out. Canada will never be fully bilingual even with the push in our schools to teach french from early grade school to the end of high school, mostly because the kids will just stop uusing it once they have left school. It does not take long to lose the use of a language and it is then even harder to bring back all to memory. I do though believe that it is a good thing to teach a second language in school but I wonder if Spanish would not be more applicable, as we will probably be exposed to more of that then we are to french in our life time.

[Leafless]

If the Liberals are unable to promote bilingualism by example in actual practice, then how to you expect average Canadians ever to become bilingual?

Your big mistake and I think the reason for your consistant hate of French Canada is that you believe your being forced to become bilingual. I don't think that's the policy or view of anyone in Canada. Speak what you wish, I see lots of people that don't even speak English or French here, I'm sure it doesn't matter.

If you work for the federal government, you are forced in many cases to become bilingual and in most positions advancement is out of the question unless you are bilingual.

If you live in Ottawa the spread of federal official bilingualism has spread to the private sector which in turn adopted bilingual hiring practices in turn forcing you to become fluently bilingual.

Ottawa has implemented an official bilingual policy forcing it's employees to become bilingual and obviously hires francophone's as well. Many people think Ottawa is officially bilingual because of this but it isn't unless the premier of the province designates the city officially bilingual. This is something that has not happened to date although I believe it was a provincial Liberal campaign promise Premier Dalton Mc.Guinty originally made.

Your mistake is assuming I dislike francophone's which is totally untrue. For all you know I could be part or fully francophone myself, my wife could be francophone.

I admit I have a dislike for Quebec's political machine which pits the French against the English.

I have a dislike for 'Official Languages of Canada' that was devised specifically to advance the interest of French Quebec by law which results in many cases concerning minority control of Canada's federal government, sectors of society with powers left unchecked or not controlled by any federal authority regarding the political interest of that minority concerning it's limits imposed on the majority.

Under 'Official Languages of Canada' in our Charter item 16(3) states:

"Nothing in this Charter limits the authority of Parliament or a legislature to advance the equality of status or use of English and French."

This part is ill defined and allows unlimited pursuing of power for minority French (we know their not talking English status) and no mention whatsoever concerning controls or limits the advancement pertaining the equality status of French despite provinces are supposed to have the power to control language in their respective provinces in Canada. Quebec utilized their power of language control by making French the official language of Quebec. Do you suppose other provinces would be allowed to do the same as Quebec by declaring their province officially English? Funny thing, I have not heard of this request from any province in Canada, strange indeed. I believe the city of Windsor in Ontario once tried to make their city officially English but ran into many roadblocks and were denied the request.

In the case of Ottawa I never remembered any referendum to decide the powers of a municipal government imposing an official bilingual policy on the residents of Ottawa.

I don't remember provincial Premier Dalton Mc.Guinty promising Ottawa residents that he would hold a provincial referendum to establish whether or not to make Ottawa officially bilingual.

Powers are being abused and no one is doing anything about the situation.

[August1991]

Being that the Liberals will not be very popular in Quebec no matter who gets in as leader, the language issue then is a little less compelling.

Huh? Do you know Canadian history?

The Liberal Party will be popular in Canada - French and English - but its leader will have to be bilingual.

Going in to the debate, the campaign to succeed Martin was basically a three-way race between Dion, Rae and Ignatieff in Quebec. Yesterday's exchanges firmed up that configuration.

....

As for the seven other candidates, they came as political tourists and left as such.

....

In a party that had a paucity of qualified bilingual candidates, Gerard Kennedy or Scott Brison's French might pass although Ken Dryden's would not, even in those reduced circumstances. But in a party that offers a perfectly fluent trio of top-tier candidates, aspirants whose second language turns to gibberish under pressure simply don't make the grade.

Chantal Hebert

She's right. The choice is between Dion, Ignatieff and Rae. The question now is to whom the others will slide.

[jbg]

I think Harper should advocate bi-lingualism in Quebec. What's sauce for the goose...

[M.Dancer]

.

Chantal Hebert

She's right. The choice is between Dion, Ignatieff and Rae. The question now is to whom the others will slide.

Dion is a virtual unknown outside of Quebec and Ottawa, Rae is too well known in Ontario and Iggy is a foreigner....or at least, Canada is foreign to him.

Personally I would pick Ruby Dhalla over all of them.....can anyone guess why?

[daddyhominum]

Being that the Liberals will not be very popular in Quebec no matter who gets in as leader, the language issue then is a little less compelling.

Huh? Do you know Canadian history?

The Liberal Party will be popular in Canada - French and English - but its leader will have to be bilingual.

Going in to the debate, the campaign to succeed Martin was basically a three-way race between Dion, Rae and Ignatieff in Quebec. Yesterday's exchanges firmed up that configuration.

....

As for the seven other candidates, they came as political tourists and left as such.

....

In a party that had a paucity of qualified bilingual candidates, Gerard Kennedy or Scott Brison's French might pass although Ken Dryden's would not, even in those reduced circumstances. But in a party that offers a perfectly fluent trio of top-tier candidates, aspirants whose second language turns to gibberish under pressure simply don't make the grade.

Chantal Hebert

She's right. The choice is between Dion, Ignatieff and Rae. The question now is to whom the others will slide.

I don’t think Rae can win at a Liberal convention. In fact, I don’t think he can get enough votes to gain any significant influence in the party.

Secondly, I don’t think Ignatieff can win an election in this country. He is too closely tied to the USA and the current Republican administration.

That leaves Dion. I am currently of the opinion that he will win the leadership in a walk-away in the Convention.( Ignatieff will return to academia. Rae will hang on in the House and get a cabinet seat if the Liberals win)

This opinion is subject to change without notice.

[August1991]

I don’t think Rae can win at a Liberal convention. In fact, I don’t think he can get enough votes to gain any significant influence in the party.

Secondly, I don’t think Ignatieff can win an election in this country. He is too closely tied to the USA and the current Republican administration.

That leaves Dion. I am currently of the opinion that he will win the leadership in a walk-away in the Convention.( Ignatieff will return to academia. Rae will hang on in the House and get a cabinet seat if the Liberals win)

This opinion is subject to change without notice.

I tend to agree.

I heard Ignatieff interviewed on local CBC radio this morning and the inexperienced interviewer was able to make him sound foolish. (The question concerned how Ignatieff was precisely going to go about constitutional change.)

I heard Rae on the Current and I thought he would be a formidable opponent to Harper. He is eloquent and passionate. He's also a tax-and-spend busybody.

So I'm increasingly seeing this as a race between Dion and Rae and when all is said and done, they'll choose Dion. I agree too that Ignatieff will leave and Rae will stick around.

Harper better get ready.

[jbg]

Rae might not do so well in Ontario, from what I hear. They know him rather well.

[Remiel]

Yes, we do. Or at least people older than myself do. I think though that Rae and the Ontario NDP were royally screwed by terrible timing for a recession, which coupled with their own limited experience with governing pretty much killed them. For at least thirty years, if not more.

I am going to try and not resort to using words like " dumb " and " stupid " in my posts, as they would betray myself as much as those I was directing them at, but I truly believe that electing Rae to be the leader of the Liberal party would be just dumb. Suicidal, even. The equivalent of electing Stephen Harper to a majority without having to even call an election. Not because I am personally prejudiced against his competence, because I am not, but because everyone in this province who was of working age when he was in power likely is.

On a side note, while I *always* look forward to the next election, I don't have very high hopes of my side pulling through with a strong government, even a strong minority. More and more it seems that some of the positions the NDP is taking under Layton offends the social liberal in me, even if though it is the party of my economic socialism. Combine that with all this talk of Liberal corruption, and I agree that thirteen years is perhaps too long for a majority, and I may have to actually consider either abstaining or voting Green, and I am not by any means a real environmentalist. Also, last time I checked, liberal is by definition in between conservate and socialist, the middle of the road. It would be nice if the people on the right started treating it like the middle, instead of the left. I don't attribute everything right of me as being the right.