Residential Schools

[Renegade]

While I am no great believer in some of the stories in the Bible, I do believe that a lot of the teachings beleived that Jesus said have a great moral to them.

One is " Even as ye have done this onto the least of these my children, ye have done it onto me"

Another is "Love your neighbour as yourself"

I find that when one suggests that by our selfishness we create a lot of the problems in this world, Anger is the reaction. When something makes one angry it usually can be associated with ones guilt.

margrace, if your response is intended to answer the question I and others have posed above, you've lost me. We can all agree that the Bible has some great and unselfish teachings.

How does this all relate to the assignment of guilt to those who didn't partake in the action? You refer to "anger is the reaction". Who's anger, the victims or the perpetrator?

Maybe for my benefit if you can give a less cryptic response and relate it more specificly to the issue raised (ie residential schools) I could follow what you are saying.

[margrace]

While I am no great believer in some of the stories in the Bible, I do believe that a lot of the teachings beleived that Jesus said have a great moral to them.

One is " Even as ye have done this onto the least of these my children, ye have done it onto me"

Another is "Love your neighbour as yourself"

I find that when one suggests that by our selfishness we create a lot of the problems in this world, Anger is the reaction. When something makes one angry it usually can be associated with ones guilt.

margrace, if your response is intended to answer the question I and others have posed above, you've lost me. We can all agree that the Bible has some great and unselfish teachings.

How does this all relate to the assignment of guilt to those who didn't partake in the action? You refer to "anger is the reaction". Who's anger, the victims or the perpetrator?

Maybe for my benefit if you can give a less cryptic response and relate it more specificly to the issue raised (ie residential schools) I could follow what you are saying.

Renegade that is my point, we, you and I, consume, along with others in our very rich countries, 80% of the worlds resources. People are starving and dying in other places and we turn our backs.

I guess as I get older, and I think this applys to quite a few of us senior citizens, we are beginning to realize the gross indency and utter selfishness of this. But when I was younger and wanted to so called good life, I too was guilty. We all are guilty.

Why did these things happen to our native populations, because we wanted the land. It is just to make people step back and consider what we are doing to the world.

Seizing the young people of the natives was to try and force them into our life styles. Educating them has only shown them how much they lost. Do you think they are going to forgive and forget? No more than you and I forgive and forget any action that we feel hurt us.

Nor are the hurt peoples of the world capable of forgetting injustices which they see, rightly or wrongly, purpatrated by us.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

We have forgiven many times over and many times over crimes have been perpetuated against us time and again.

So we're not looking for revenge. Rather we are interested in stopping the insanity that caused the residential schools, the genocide and the apartheid policies. Unfortunately you in mainstream society resist reality, preferring to bath yourself in myth and reconstructed history to continue to attempt to justify your abhorrent and retarded treatment of anyone with a different mindset. You wallow in self-pity hoping it will redeem your racism and bigotry. You consume enmasse and then complain about the mounds of garbage that your community doesn't know what to do with. You walk by drunks and homeless people on the sidewalks of big cities and complain they interfere with the beautification of the inner city. Your children come home to empty houses and then when they get into a bit of trouble out of boredom, you get these stupid looks and start blaming the kid for his behavior.

All the while you exempt your own irrational and mentally unstable behavior in everyday life - clearly a trait of the woefully insane!

We realized long ago that we couldn't live with you being so crazy and inconsistent, so we came to the Two Row agreement and extended it through the Covanent Chain. This agreement was to separate ourselves and allow each other to live along their own path. Your societies constant intereference in our lives and nation suggest that you are even incapable of adhering to simple agreements and monitoring / regulating your own behavior. You continue to assert that you know what is best for us and vow to ~correct~ our problems with your retarded ideas. Yet if you realized that we only want to be left alone, we would be able to demonstrate for those among you who are also tired of your craziness, a way out. If all you can do is to go on consuming and still leave us alone, then the whole world will be a much better place for us all.

So the ~problem~ isn't with us, or the fact that we demand reparations (since penalizing you financially is the only way to get your attention) but it is with you and the crazy, life-sucking insanity you live under. When the racists and bigots can get a life that equals any one Mohawk friends or relatives, then I will begin to allow you to make suggestions on how we can live peaceable together. Until then the only way to deal with crazy makers and presidents of the nut factories is to continue to spin you around and around until you fall flat on you ass and ask for our help. Be assured that the day is coming. Only being so lost in your heavy-consuming and violent thinking lifestyles you can't see anything real and peaceful on the horizon.

BTW youe anglo-european Christian soceity is born into guilt through the original sin and even though many of you will deny the bible, chrisitianity or any religious affilliation, you cannot deny how heavily influenced your soceity is from it. That makes you all Christian-based and responsible for the guilt and the sins of your fathers, not by us but by through the dominence of your soceity morality. The only way to escape it is to retreat into insanity....and thus the circle of craziness continues unabated and unrelentless upon you and your children. My ancestors saw this pychosis over 500 years ago and were smart enought to prescribe that we distance ourselves from it. THAT and not the colour of our skin separates us. And being wholly sane it is impossible to for you rationalize your belief to us that you are only a little bit insane, sometimes, on certain issues, as there are no degrees of insanity and so your little bit is full blown nuts!

O:nen

[scribblet]

That was a long time ago, it isn't happening now. This chapter in life is being used to beat today's Canadians and blackmail them. We know it happened, but the numbers and allegations of thousands of buried babies etc. is hearsay, the more they can enlarge on this tragedy, the more they can hope to get from us.

We are not responsible for the in fighting and massacres in third world countries; we give billions in aid but much of it is misspent and wasted and some projects etc. misguided e.g. huge dams that throw populations into upheaval by flooding them off their land, some world bank projects have displaced millions while the third world dictators and despots benefit more from our aid than the population.

The notion that we (the West) are responsible forThird World poverty is over played,

The dam in China is threatening to be a huge population migration nightmare and the Indian damn projects (about 3,000 damns threaten more).

http://www.multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/...iew-watson.html

Aid: The Environmental Price We Pay

http://www.valt.helsinki.fi/atk/gpe/texts/bauer.htm

excerpted:

Far from the West having caused the poverty in the Third World, contact with the West has been the principal agent of material progress there. The materially more advanced societies and regions of the Third World are those with which the West established the most numerous, diversified and extensive contacts: the cash-crop producing areas and entrepot ports of South-East Asia, West Africa and Latin America; the mineral-producing areas of Africa and the Middle East; and cities and ports throughout Asia, Africa, the Caribbean and Latin America. The level of material achievement usually diminishes as one moves away from the foci of Western impact. The poorest and most backward people have few or no external contacts; witness the aborigines, pygmies and desert peoples.

All this is neither new nor surprising, since the spread of material progress from more to less advanced regions is a commonplace of history. In medieval Europe, for instance, the more advanced regions of Central and Eastern Europe and Scandinavia were the areas with most contacts with France, the Low Countries and Italy, the most advanced parts of Europe at the time. The West was materially far ahead of the present Third World countries when it established extensive and diverse"

I am not part of a collective guilt to what happened years ago, and in an essay by Bauer, “Western Guilt and Third World Poverty,” he showed that the West need not feel guilty for world poverty. ...

www.fff.org/comment/com0206c.asp

Redistribution of wealth, generally ends with the destruction of that wealth and rarely creates the wealth in another. That re-distributed money then goes mainly on short term consumption or be stolen by corrupt despots. Freer trade and more competition is part of the solution, not throwing yourself on the alter of self hatred and self flagulation.

[margrace]

[

Redistribution of wealth, generally ends with the destruction of that wealth and rarely creates the wealth in another. That re-distributed money then goes mainly on short term consumption or be stolen by corrupt despots. Freer trade and more competition is part of the solution, not throwing yourself on the alter of self hatred and self flagulation.

Sorry scriblett but I do not buy into the redustributation of wealth theory, promoted as propaganda against the NDP party by hard line Conservatives. Conversely I find that the international companies, already supported by the very rich, are the ones redistributing the wealth. Jobs leaving our hemesphere and going elswhere are redistributing it.

Our own people with fewer and fewer jobs will not be able to provide for our own families let alone keep up the grand life style that a lot of us have become accostomed to.

It is common sense that there is enough in the world right now to provide a decent way of life for everyone but it is a common failure of mankind that he must be able to look down on someone else and the more he acquires and doesn't need the more he promotes that lifestyle.

I do not buy into the sinner belief promoted here as Christianity. That again is propaganda sold to the common man by those requiring wealth and power. The old adage that one is born a sinner is a lot of ballywho. But we are sinners in that we are greedy people who promote the poverty of others.

[Renegade]

Renegade that is my point, we, you and I, consume, along with others in our very rich countries, 80% of the worlds resources. People are starving and dying in other places and we turn our backs.

I guess as I get older, and I think this applys to quite a few of us senior citizens, we are beginning to realize the gross indency and utter selfishness of this. But when I was younger and wanted to so called good life, I too was guilty. We all are guilty.

I guess you and I have a different perception on what it means to be "guilty". In my view in order to be culpable you have to show that there is a causative action which has been taken by the culpable party which has resulted in a detremental impact to the injured party. It is not sufficient to simply say "we are rich and they are poor, therefore we must be guilty".

I think what you are describing is remorse felt on your conscience because some are not a fortunate as you. It is understandable to feel this remorse, but it is not the culpablitiy that I and others in this thread are referring to.

Why did these things happen to our native populations, because we wanted the land. It is just to make people step back and consider what we are doing to the world.

Seizing the young people of the natives was to try and force them into our life styles. Educating them has only shown them how much they lost.

Of course the European invaders wanted the land, and they eventually got most of it some by force, some by agreement. In any case, the perpetrators you speak of are long dead. Where transgressions have taken place, those who have trangressed should be brought to justice.

It is an incoherent argument to assign blame to all Canadians or all the white race or whomever you mean by "us". Would we blame all Muslims because a few of them perpetrated a terror plot? Are they all guilty?

Do you think they are going to forgive and forget? No more than you and I forgive and forget any action that we feel hurt us.

Nor are the hurt peoples of the world capable of forgetting injustices which they see, rightly or wrongly, purpatrated by us.

Forgiving and forgetting are frequently non-rational actions. Many Americans (and some Canadians) blame all Muslims, and vow they will never forgive or forget. How rational is that?

-----------------------

Your justification seems to be that you claim guilt for our country/race/society simply because we are better off than others without being specific what actions we did to cause that guilt. By that twisted logic, there is nothing for which we are not guilty, and we get to pass on that guilt to the yet unborn generations. Does that make any sense to you?

[scribblet]

Sorry scriblett but I do not buy into the redustributation of wealth theory, promoted as propaganda against the NDP party by hard line Conservatives. Conversely I find that the international companies, already supported by the very rich, are the ones redistributing the wealth. Jobs leaving our hemesphere and going elswhere are redistributing it.

Where did I mention the NDP, but now that you mention it, it is hardly propaganda, if you read the recent proposals at the convention, you'll know that it is so. If it were not for large companies (and small) none of us what have a job, some get rich yes, if I could, I would. If jobs are leaving our hemisphere they are going to third world countries, thus providing them with employment and a better standard living. I thought that is what you wanted to see.

Our own people with fewer and fewer jobs will not be able to provide for our own families let alone keep up the grand life style that a lot of us have become accostomed to.

It is common sense that there is enough in the world right now to provide a decent way of life for everyone but it is a common failure of mankind that he must be able to look down on someone else and the more he acquires and doesn't need the more he promotes that lifestyle.

I don't know about you but I don't have a 'grand lifestyle', obviously better than most in the third world, but by our measurements, it is not grand. I am conservative, I am not rich and I am not religious - that is also propaganda against the conservatives.

Overpopulation is one of the problems, maybe there isn't enough to go around, maybe it is the third world that is not sustainable.

Blaming the west and its industry for being productive and providing for better lifestyles, is at best, misguided. If the West didn't produce as much the stadnard of living countries such as South Africa would be lower than they are today. If we didn't produce and consume as much, thereby sustaining our economy, we would be in the same state of poverty as the third world. We would have no decent housing, no investment in education or your 'free' health care. Taxes from those nasty capitalists and we consumers, sustain all of that.

I do not buy into the sinner belief promoted here as Christianity. That again is propaganda sold to the common man by those requiring wealth and power. The old adage that one is born a sinner is a lot of ballywho. But we are sinners in that we are greedy people who promote the poverty of others.

You've lost me here, I'm not clear to what you are referring. I don't subscribe to the sinner belief either, but I don't believe it was mentioned. To say that we, because we have created a good economy and have raised our standard of living, we are sinners is simply preposterous.

Take for instance, tropical rainforest deforestation, it has little or nothing to do with our consumption and economy. It has more to do with the fact than less than 10% of the harvested wood is exported as most of the wood is burned for fuel, clear cutting is done by farmers for tilling the land.

Kyoto for instance, asks us to pay developing countries to continue polluting while we continue to cut back.

Most despots and dictators are more interested in getting handout from the west and sustaining their Swiss bank accounts, rather than improving the living conditions of their people.

[jbg]

Renegade that is my point, we, you and I, consume, along with others in our very rich countries, 80% of the worlds resources. People are starving and dying in other places and we turn our backs.

I puke everytime I read that. Don't you realize that they produce over 80% of the worlds' consumable and durable goods also? Do you really think if we consumed less, the people of Dharfur would consume more?

I guess as I get older, and I think this applys to quite a few of us senior citizens, we are beginning to realize the gross indency and utter selfishness of this. But when I was younger and wanted to so called good life, I too was guilty. We all are guilty.

Try:

I guess as I get older, and I think this applys applies to quite a few of us senior citizens, we are beginning to realize the gross indency indecency and utter selfishness of this. But when I was younger and wanted to live the???? so called good life, I too was guilty. We all are guilty.

Some spelling and grammar would have served you, as well as learning a bit about the real world.

Why did these things happen to our native populations, because we wanted the land. It is just to make people step back and consider what we are doing to the world.

Seizing the young people of the natives was to try and force them into our life styles. Educating them has only shown them how much they lost. Do you think they are going to forgive and forget? No more than you and I forgive and forget any action that we feel hurt us.

How about realizing that their society was broken by smallpox spread by Spanish explorers a good 150 years before any Europeans came to and remained in what's now Canada? There was nothing, I mean literally nothing, left except a few broken, discouraged remnants of devastating epidemics. See Charles E. Mann's 1491.

Nor are the hurt peoples of the world capable of forgetting injustices which they see, rightly or wrongly, purpatrated by us.

The Jews of WW II Europe suffered some "injustices". We haven't forgotten, but we've helped all of the countries that let us live in peace build. Why can't other so-called "victims"?

[Wilber]

The Jews of WW II Europe suffered some "injustices". We haven't forgotten, but we've helped all of the countries that let us live in peace build. Why can't other so-called "victims"?

Actually they were victims of a concerted attempt to exterminate every one of them which didn't come far from succeeding.

[jbg]

The Jews of WW II Europe suffered some "injustices". We haven't forgotten, but we've helped all of the countries that let us live in peace build. Why can't other so-called "victims"?

Actually they were victims of a concerted attempt to exterminate every one of them which didn't come far from succeeding.

And how much do Jews try to extract from the UN or Liberal governments as "compensation"?

[Who's Doing What?]

She:kon!

We have forgiven many times over and many times over crimes have been perpetuated against us time and again.

So we're not looking for revenge. Rather we are interested in stopping the insanity that caused the residential schools, the genocide and the apartheid policies. Unfortunately you in mainstream society resist reality, preferring to bath yourself in myth and reconstructed history to continue to attempt to justify your abhorrent and retarded treatment of anyone with a different mindset. You wallow in self-pity hoping it will redeem your racism and bigotry. You consume enmasse and then complain about the mounds of garbage that your community doesn't know what to do with. You walk by drunks and homeless people on the sidewalks of big cities and complain they interfere with the beautification of the inner city. Your children come home to empty houses and then when they get into a bit of trouble out of boredom, you get these stupid looks and start blaming the kid for his behavior.

All the while you exempt your own irrational and mentally unstable behavior in everyday life - clearly a trait of the woefully insane!

We realized long ago that we couldn't live with you being so crazy and inconsistent, so we came to the Two Row agreement and extended it through the Covanent Chain. This agreement was to separate ourselves and allow each other to live along their own path. Your societies constant intereference in our lives and nation suggest that you are even incapable of adhering to simple agreements and monitoring / regulating your own behavior. You continue to assert that you know what is best for us and vow to ~correct~ our problems with your retarded ideas. Yet if you realized that we only want to be left alone, we would be able to demonstrate for those among you who are also tired of your craziness, a way out. If all you can do is to go on consuming and still leave us alone, then the whole world will be a much better place for us all.

So the ~problem~ isn't with us, or the fact that we demand reparations (since penalizing you financially is the only way to get your attention) but it is with you and the crazy, life-sucking insanity you live under. When the racists and bigots can get a life that equals any one Mohawk friends or relatives, then I will begin to allow you to make suggestions on how we can live peaceable together. Until then the only way to deal with crazy makers and presidents of the nut factories is to continue to spin you around and around until you fall flat on you ass and ask for our help. Be assured that the day is coming. Only being so lost in your heavy-consuming and violent thinking lifestyles you can't see anything real and peaceful on the horizon.

BTW youe anglo-european Christian soceity is born into guilt through the original sin and even though many of you will deny the bible, chrisitianity or any religious affilliation, you cannot deny how heavily influenced your soceity is from it. That makes you all Christian-based and responsible for the guilt and the sins of your fathers, not by us but by through the dominence of your soceity morality. The only way to escape it is to retreat into insanity....and thus the circle of craziness continues unabated and unrelentless upon you and your children. My ancestors saw this pychosis over 500 years ago and were smart enought to prescribe that we distance ourselves from it. THAT and not the colour of our skin separates us. And being wholly sane it is impossible to for you rationalize your belief to us that you are only a little bit insane, sometimes, on certain issues, as there are no degrees of insanity and so your little bit is full blown nuts!

O:nen

*Yawn* Are you still here?

[Wilber]

The Jews of WW II Europe suffered some "injustices". We haven't forgotten, but we've helped all of the countries that let us live in peace build. Why can't other so-called "victims"?

Actually they were victims of a concerted attempt to exterminate every one of them which didn't come far from succeeding.

And how much do Jews try to extract from the UN or Liberal governments as "compensation"?

None that I know of, I just thought the use of the word "injustices" was a bit of an understatement.

[jbg]

The Jews of WW II Europe suffered some "injustices". We haven't forgotten, but we've helped all of the countries that let us live in peace build. Why can't other so-called "victims"?

Actually they were victims of a concerted attempt to exterminate every one of them which didn't come far from succeeding.

And how much do Jews try to extract from the UN or Liberal governments as "compensation"?

None that I know of, I just thought the use of the word "injustices" was a bit of an understatement.

Quite obviously we're on the same page. I often understate rather than overstate. Just my lawyerly style.

[betsy]

No but you are, like me, responsible for what is going on today in places like Africa, just as my parents were responsible for what went on in their time, the holocoust.

You people remind me of the holocost deniers by the way.

You keep on heaping guilt and blame...and yet, for what is practically along the same lines of what you want us to feel...you don't want to answer a straitforward question.

Are ALL MUSLIMS responsible for all the terrorists' acts in the name of Allah?

Stop being SELECTIVE with your guilt-heaping! It shows the double-standard!

[betsy]

While I am no great believer in some of the stories in the Bible, I do believe that a lot of the teachings beleived that Jesus said have a great moral to them.

One is " Even as ye have done this onto the least of these my children, ye have done it onto me"

Another is "Love your neighbour as yourself"

I find that when one suggests that by our selfishness we create a lot of the problems in this world, Anger is the reaction. When something makes one angry it usually can be associated with ones guilt.

I'm lost with your comments here.....

But then, since you've mentioned the bible...

...what about some Islam beliefs based on their Koran....the passages that the extremists are clinging to in their justification of terrorist acts?

Quit being the typical Liberal that loops a never ending circle that makes no sense in an effort to muddle up the discussion....a typical tactics of spinners when faced with a question that they don't want to answer!

STICK TO THE QUESTION directly relating to your accusation and argument!

Should ALL MUSLIMS feel guilty then? ARE ALL MUSLIMS guilty then for all the terrorist acts done in the name of Allah?

[betsy]

When we talk of guilt...along the lines of what Margrace wants us to feel....all these whiners about the residential schools only end up looking SHALLOW and SELF-MOTIVATED.....when the world right now is faced with so much tragedy!

If you want to keep your undivided attention to your clan or whatever...you need not look beyond your own reserves!

WHAT ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN THAT ARE DYING NOW INSIDE YOUR RESERVES?

The residential tragedies you keep sobbing about happened in the past! If you truly care at all about them...then show that you had learned lessons from it! DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS OF YOUR CHILDREN....happening RIGHT NOW! You've got a voice now. Use it!

Then your seeming sorrows about what had happened in the past wouldn't look so phoney!

[betsy]

Btw, how many $$$ are these so-called "guilt" worth?