Israel's post-war reflections

[Figleaf]

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-08-29-voa50.cfm

People in Israel are baying for an inquiry into the government's handling of the war.

I'm curious exactly what they are concerned about, since there are so many angles. Do they want to investigate:

-senseless destruction of a neighboring state?

-how they lost to Hezbollah on the ground?

-how their opponents won the diplomatic side?

-why after almost 40 years of military supremacy they have been unable to get peace?

-what they think they are going to do next?

Lots of important things for Israel to think about.

[Rue]

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-08-29-voa50.cfm

People in Israel are baying for an inquiry into the government's handling of the war.

I'm curious exactly what they are concerned about, since there are so many angles. Do they want to investigate:

-senseless destruction of a neighboring state?

-how they lost to Hezbollah on the ground?

-how their opponents won the diplomatic side?

-why after almost 40 years of military supremacy they have been unable to get peace?

-what they think they are going to do next?

Lots of important things for Israel to think about.

I have sent your comments to the Israeli Prime Minister. I will also make it a point to call every citizen of Israel and pass on your comments to the appropriate military review committee.

Get real.

1- For Israelis, going into Lebanon and blowing up buildings where Hezbollah hides of course makes sense -they know Hezbollah's stated goal is to wipe them all out-obviously your brain can't wrap itself around the concept that when a people are being threatened with immediate destruction it will make sense for them to try prevent the source of that

immediate destruction from launching further missile attacks-from the sounds of it in your world, it makes sense to do nothing when missiles come hurtling at your face...

2-do tell us Mr. Military Expert how you are able to state Israel's military lost on the ground..can't wait to read your military analysis in the next miitary journal that comes out....and no doubt Israel will have you lecture its army.... uh hello are there any lights on up there? Hezbollah was moved out of the South which is all that Israel had intended to do...no one lost or won..Israel set out to get Hezbollah 30 miles further away from their Lebanese border...that is what they set out to do and achieved--what I think you think you are babbling about is that a conventional army can not wipe out a terrorist cell that hides in civilian populations...sorry to burst your bubble but I think the IDF was wellaware of that and that is precisely why it made more sense for them to engage in air strikes rather then get caught in a ground exercise of hide and seek

3-again, I am glad you reminded us Hezbollah won a diplomatic war...I mean now the world now agrees with Hezbollah and its charter calling for the mass destruction of Jews-yes you are right the whole world will join Hezbollah now and wipe out Israel.. and all Jews everywhere...its a wide spread diplomatic victory! Hezbollah t-shirts are a hot sales item....and terrorism is sweeping every nation as the fad of fads...who needs Paris Hilton when you have Hezbollah...is a trend sweeping all nations..the Hezbollah look will be the latest autumn fashion...

4-Golly gee Israelis sit around scratching their heads wondering why there is no peace..yes sir, they are all clueless idiots that need to think that one over-I mean why would they think Hezbollah, Hamas, Intidadah, Jihad and thousands of terrorist cells and fundamentalists and Arab nations all across the Middle East who do not believe Israel should exist and for that matter killingJews world wide is acceptable would have anything to do with the lack of peace..and when the Iranian leader says the holocaust never happened and Israel should be wiped out...nah that is just too confusing for Israelis to think could possibly related to this lack of peace...nah they are all stupid..they havent a clue that the Muslim world refuses to acknowledge their existence...its never dawned on them..hopefully you can travel to Israel and tell them the real reason why...they are all dying to know and I mean dying...

5-Gee what is Israel going to do next? I know all Israelis sit around drooling and wondering. YGosh what should I do now. Hmmm. Can I give you a hint..... when you live in the face of death you don't think about what you are doing to do next..you do what you did today, and ysterday and the day before...and what you will do tomorrow. youl try to exist and survive and carry on.

But on behalf of the State of Israel thanks for sharing.

[Black Dog]

For Israelis, going into Lebanon and blowing up buildings where Hezbollah hides of course makes sense -they know Hezbollah's stated goal is to wipe them all out-obviously your brain can't wrap itself around the concept that when a people are being threatened with immediate destruction it will make sense for them to try prevent the source of that immediate destruction from launching further missile attacks-from the sounds of it in your world, it makes sense to do nothing when missiles come hurtling at your face...

Rue, Rue, rue. Surely by now you know the difference between making a threat and actally having teh ability to carry out that threat. So Hizbullah's stated goal is to wipe Israel out. That doesn't mean Hizbullah has the ability to acomplish that goal. IOW don't threaten Israel with immediate destruction. They threten Israelis lives and safet, which is bad enough: why inflate the threat even further?

-do tell us Mr. Military Expert how you are able to state Israel's military lost on the ground..can't wait to read your military analysis in the next miitary journal that comes out....and no doubt Israel will have you lecture its army.... uh hello are there any lights on up there? Hezbollah was moved out of the South which is all that Israel had intended to do...no one lost or won..Israel set out to get Hezbollah 30 miles further away from their Lebanese border...that is what they set out to do and achieved--

Hizbullah emerges from rubble

Hezbollah in no hurry to leave South Lebanon

Hizbullah's still there. That's the problem.

what I think you think you are babbling about is that a conventional army can not wipe out a terrorist cell that hides in civilian populations...sorry to burst your bubble but I think the IDF was wellaware of that and that is precisely why it made more sense for them to engage in air strikes rather then get caught in a ground exercise of hide and seek

Actualy, you're confused. Boots on the ground is the only effective way to counter a guerilla force. Air power is useless.

3-again, I am glad you reminded us Hezbollah won a diplomatic war...I mean now the world now agrees with Hezbollah and its charter calling for the mass destruction of Jews-yes you are right the whole world will join Hezbollah now and wipe out Israel.. and all Jews everywhere...its a wide spread diplomatic victory! Hezbollah t-shirts are a hot sales item....and terrorism is sweeping every nation as the fad of fads...who needs Paris Hilton when you have Hezbollah...is a trend sweeping all nations..the Hezbollah look will be the latest autumn fashion...

So tell us: how did the war improve Israel's diplomatic situation?

4-Golly gee Israelis sit around scratching their heads wondering why there is no peace..yes sir, they are all clueless idiots that need to think that one over-I mean why would they think Hezbollah, Hamas, Intidadah, Jihad and thousands of terrorist cells and fundamentalists and Arab nations all across the Middle East who do not believe Israel should exist and for that matter killingJews world wide is acceptable would have anything to do with the lack of peace..and when the Iranian leader says the holocaust never happened and Israel should be wiped out...nah that is just too confusing for Israelis to think could possibly related to this lack of peace...nah they are all stupid..they havent a clue that the Muslim world refuses to acknowledge their existence...its never dawned on them..hopefully you can travel to Israel and tell them the real reason why...they are all dying to know and I mean dying...

The question asked is a valid and fair one. If peace can be acheived through military supermacy and Israel has enjoyed that supermacy for more than 40 years, why has it been unable to acheive peace?

5-Gee what is Israel going to do next? I know all Israelis sit around drooling and wondering. YGosh what should I do now. Hmmm. Can I give you a hint..... when you live in the face of death you don't think about what you are doing to do next..you do what you did today, and ysterday and the day before...and what you will do tomorrow. youl try to exist and survive and carry on.

Maybe that's the problem. Instead of doing the same thing (that is: relying on force and military supremacy to secure peace), perhaps Israel should tyry something that might actually work so that its people don't have to live in constant danger.

[GostHacked]

Isreal has clearly violated the cease fire as well, more than a couple times since the ceasfire was in place. But you don't really care about that Rue. You really don't care that Olmert gave the finger to the UN and said the naval blockade will not be removed.

But Mr Olmert said only that Israel would pull out of the Lebanon once UN resolution 1701 was implemented.

No timeline is set for 1701. So that gives Israel some breathing room in terms of them doing what they want. Clearly they don't care about the resolution. Which is part of the problem as well.

Rue

4-Golly gee Israelis sit around scratching their heads wondering why there is no peace..yes sir, they are all clueless idiots that need to think that one over-I mean why would they think Hezbollah, Hamas, Intidadah, Jihad and thousands of terrorist cells and fundamentalists and Arab nations all across the Middle East who do not believe Israel should exist and for that matter killingJews world wide is acceptable would have anything to do with the lack of peace..and when the Iranian leader says the holocaust never happened and Israel should be wiped out...nah that is just too confusing for Israelis to think could possibly related to this lack of peace...nah they are all stupid..they havent a clue that the Muslim world refuses to acknowledge their existence...its never dawned on them..hopefully you can travel to Israel and tell them the real reason why...they are all dying to know and I mean dying...

They keep scratching their heads trying to understand but never look back and find out what the cause of all this was. I guess this is what happens when you settle down and make your home in a land full of hostile wild animals that don't want you there. Terrorist this, terrorist that. Freedom fighter this, freedom fighter that.

1000 people killed in Lebanon is = or > or < 100 Israelies killed.

BD

Actualy, you're confused. Boots on the ground is the only effective way to counter a guerilla force. Air power is useless.

I got laughed at in another thread when I mentioned that Israel should have went in with a small tactical unit. Special Forces. I am sure Israel has Special Forces. They could have gone in an rescued their soldiers, But Israel is not about subtlety at all. A huge ass war was not needed for this. Small stealthy unit to go in and rescue the soldiers. HELL is Hezbollah can dig tunnels under the border and snatch a few Israeli soldiers, I am QUITE SURE that Israel can do the same thing, even better. The air was was not needed.

Now this does not even take into count of what is still happening in Gaza.

Also when part of your population thinks that the government was wrong to invade, self-hating jews right? Like they don't care either I guess. They want Israel destroyed as well? Ruse what do yuou say to those people? Those Israeli's that oppose the war and think Olmert was in the wrong? What do you tell them?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5294740.stm

[moderateamericain]

A few varying opinion's hear with some thought put into them. Personally, I believe that the lebonese government has little or no say, nor after this war has any influence into the country. Hezbollah is the government of Lebanon. As we clearly saw there ability to wage war was better then what Iraq put up in its effort to defend itself. It is my personal opinion that Israel should either, forgive the vulgarity, shit or get off the pot. The same could be said for the US in iraq. Over 2000 dead service men and many more wounded says to me that the janurary deadline that the IRaqi president has set for US force withdraw should be observed. Back on topic, I believe Israel handled that war incorrectly in so far as it did not use overwhelming force to simply annihlate the enemy, instead it made the same mistake that we have made in Iraq and only used the minimal force necessary. Would the death toll be higher? sure. But the political victory that Hezbollah has gained i believe in the long run will cost even more lifes in both Israel and Lebanon.

In summary, for those of you who want the short version, I believe Israel should have completely destroyed Hezbollah's ability to launch weapons across border. Not just in the south but the whole country. Only when Hezbollah could no longer effectively launch offensive's into israel could a victory be claimed as it stands now Hezbollah defiently got the upper hand so to speak, body count aside.

[Figleaf]

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-08-29-voa50.cfm

People in Israel are baying for an inquiry into the government's handling of the war.

I'm curious exactly what they are concerned about, since there are so many angles. Do they want to investigate:

-senseless destruction of a neighboring state?

-how they lost to Hezbollah on the ground?

-how their opponents won the diplomatic side?

-why after almost 40 years of military supremacy they have been unable to get peace?

-what they think they are going to do next?

Lots of important things for Israel to think about.

1- For Israelis, going into Lebanon and blowing up buildings where Hezbollah hides of course makes sense -they know Hezbollah's stated goal is to wipe them all out ...

Destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure on the theory that Hezbollah might use it (1) is against the laws of war for failure to limit civilian damage, and (2) proved unsuccessful.

The stated objective of Hezbollah is irrelevant to the reality of either 1, or 2. It is also not realistic. Israel is under no short-term existential threat, no matter how over-heated the rhetoric.

-from the sounds of it in your world, it makes sense to do nothing when missiles come hurtling at your face...

Your imputations could be amusing, if you made them less sputtery-mad.

Do nothing? No. Do something that makes sense, something that bears a connection to the reality of things, something with a chance of succeeding eventually.

2-do tell us Mr. Military Expert how you are able to state Israel's military lost on the ground...

I claim no special expertise. I say Israel lost because despite superior firepower it didn't stop the missiles, and it didn't dislodge Hezbollah.

...uh hello are there any lights on up there?

Your comments are not made any more persuasive by your use of a disrespectful tone.

Hezbollah was moved out of the South ...

Not that I've heard.

3-again, I am glad you reminded us Hezbollah won a diplomatic war...I mean now the world now agrees with Hezbollah and its charter calling for the mass destruction of Jews-yes you are right the whole world will join Hezbollah now and wipe out Israel..

Your impulse to disagree with me has led you to misread my comment. I did not say Hezbollah won the diplomatic war, I said Israel's opponents did ... particularly Iran, but also generally anyone wishing to increase skepticism of Israel's claims and interests. (Perhaps I should have said PR instead of diplomacy.)

To anyone not completely besotted with Bush-Likud propaganda, it should be obvious that (1) Israel looks even more like a bully now, and (2) Israel's military prowess is not unassailable. Neither realization is helpful for Israel's interests, obviously.

4-Golly gee Israelis sit around scratching their heads wondering why there is no peace..yes sir, they are all clueless idiots that need to think that one over-

Based on the conduct of successive Israeli governments and the rhetoric one hears in the Israeli media, there frequently is a substantial dose of illogic, unreality, and stiff-neckedness at work in Israel's regional geo-politics. This is most famously displayed by the persistent illegal settlement of the Occupied Territories. Inconsistent? Untenable? You bet. But other examples exist too ... like insisting the PA enforce laws while killing its policemen, or how about demanding democratic elections but rejecting the outcome.

Yes, Israel faces some implacable, unreasonable enemies. But Israel's hands are not clean either.

But on behalf of the State of Israel thanks for sharing.

You speak for the state of Israel? Presumptuous.

[M.Dancer]

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-08-29-voa50.cfm

People in Israel are baying for an inquiry into the government's handling of the war.

I'm curious exactly what they are concerned about, since there are so many angles. Do they want to investigate:

-senseless destruction of a neighboring state?

-how they lost to Hezbollah on the ground?

-how their opponents won the diplomatic side?

-why after almost 40 years of military supremacy they have been unable to get peace?

-what they think they are going to do next?

Lots of important things for Israel to think about.

Every army, even Canada's has a department called Lessons Learned. They should look at all aspects, even the baseless myths like Hezbollah won.

[Figleaf]

Part of the point I was trying to make is that the reflective process Israeli citizens are demanding should go well beyond the narrow focus on military short-falls.

I would suggest that underlying the Israeli public's demand for answers is an inchoate recognition that their leadership over decades has failed them, not in military strategy, but in diplomatic vision.

[Wilber]

Part of the point I was trying to make is that the reflective process Israeli citizens are demanding should go well beyond the narrow focus on military short-falls.

I would suggest that underlying the Israeli public's demand for answers is an inchoate recognition that their leadership over decades has failed them, not in military strategy, but in diplomatic vision.

Israel has managed to make peace with it's more moderate neighbours, Egypt and Jordan. If the rest are publicly committed to the eradication of their country, their first priority should be addressing its military shortfalls. How does diplomacy cope with a countries such as Iran and Syria which maintain that the Jews and their country should be exterminated and are maintaining a proxy army in a neighbouring country in order to further that policy?

If the Israelis have a diplomatic failing it is in their inability to convince many westerners that they have the right to do what is necessary to defend themselves in face of the above.

[Borg]

Israel has managed to make peace with it's more moderate neighbours, Egypt and Jordan. If the rest are publicly committed to the eradication of their country, their first priority should be addressing its military shortfalls. How does diplomacy cope with a countries such as Iran and Syria which maintain that the Jews and their country should be exterminated and are maintaining a proxy army in a neighbouring country in order to further that policy?

There is no negotiation with someone who will not negotiate in good faith. So you put your knee in his chest and your knife at his throat and tell him what is going to happen.

Jordan and Eqypt have come to realize it is far more profitable to trade with Isreal than to fight with it. They also have stopped espousing the erradication of an entire country.

Lebanon is a weak country governed by fools that allowed Hezbollah to start something that cost the country far too much in lives and infrastructure. I wonder if Lebanese gov officials will step in to stop the Hezbollah, or if they will allow themselves to be continually drawn into compromising situations? I think we all know the answer.

In the end fingers can be pointed in any direction, but might will continue to be right in the middle east. It is the only thing that is completely understood in that region.

If the Israelis have a diplomatic failing it is in their inability to convince many westerners that they have the right to do what is necessary to defend themselves in face of the above.

I could not agree more. Especially us folks in North America. We have not grown up under a sky littered with folks trying to kill us. The same cannot be said for folks in the middle east. Thus we think differently.

Borg

[Rue]

I love it when people who sit in comfort and take their peace for granted lecture Israel on what it should learn and talk about the Lebanese conflict like it is a foot-ball score where one side won and the other lost.

Yes Figleaf you do hear contempt in my voice, because having had both Palestinian and Israeli guts in my face I sputter madly when I hear people like you make such simplistic analysis and see everything so black and white, good versus bad.

So let us deal with a few comments I personally found idiotic.

To start with Black Dog once again lectures us all that Hezbollah does not have the means to destroy Israel and simply is engaged in trash talk. Right this is a foot-ball game and the other guy is simply trash talking.

I will say this again, Black Dog makes such simplistic, naive comments, because he has not lived through a missile attack, a bomb exploding a few feet from him, or constantly wondering when walking in a crowd if a bomb will go off.

Black Dog I guarantee you this. If you came to Israel and lived through one missile attack or witnessed one bomb go off and have to scrape body parts, you would not make such idiotic comments such as Hezbollah can not wipe Israel out or is not a danger and fluff it off as trash talk and this is precisely why I am so quick to dismiss your comments when they revert to such simplistic generalizations. I do respect your other views, but sorry when it comes to the threat of terrorism and its consequences, I am truly moved by your ignorance and yes I do get angry.

As for you Figleaf who obviously writes in a manner which suggests he is an expert and has figured it all out and of course realizes it is all Israel's fault let me try one simple concept on you. Lebanese infrastructure was blown up not because Hezbollah might use it, but because Hezbollah was using it.

In fact, had Israel finished what it started years ago rather then pull out and allow Hezbollah to take over Lebanon and use its infrastructure at will to build an arsenal and launching pad from South Lebanon

no this would not have happened.

Here is the crux of the issue Figleaf your selectivity chooses to deliberately ignore. If Israel goes into Lebanon to try pre-empt terrorist attacks from Hezbollah, you argue they are occupying Lebanon and Hezbollah is merely a freedom fighting force.

When Israel leaves, and is no longer in Lebanon, and then Hezbollah engages in attacks on Israel proper, you still refer to them as an innocent victim and that is precisely why Figleaf your simplistic lectures

have no time of day with me and yes are spit on.

You see Figleaf I have no time of day for someone who is intellectually dishonest and yes I find it intellectually dishonest for you to engage in the comments you do without ever stating or conceding that Israel has the right to exist and would not be fighting Hezbollah or engaged in attacks on Lebanon if it was not under attack.

That you and Black Dog and the usual anti-Israelis on these posts like to sweep under the carpet. If youa re Blackdog youy write about this conflict like it is some sort of minor annoyance. Like Blackdog you feel you can be self-righteous and infer and argue that Israel had no business defending itself.

Well I have news for you. If you did not live in such a comfortable world..if you lived in a city where missiles were being shot at you and terrorists were blowing up your movie theatres, cafes and streets, you would want your government to protect you.

I also have news for you. If someone told you your government would not do anything, because the rest of the world doesn't want you to live in a free country you could care less what that world has to think.

See in your simplistic world, Jews should just disappear. They have no right to live in peace. They can't defend themselves. They can't try stop the missiles from reaching them. Like Blackdog you dismiss these missiles, these kidnappings of soldiers, these terrorist attacks as a joke.

Now as for the other comment from the other poster who claims Israel gave its finger to the UN he again shows his complete bias and ignorance as to the conflict in his attempt to depict Israel as simply giving the finger to the UN.

Anyone who bothers to read up on this conflict knows what the UN's record is. But I suppose I should remind you one more time since you conveniently ignore it in your simplistic attempts to portray Israel as bad and anyone anti Israel as good.

The UN passed a resolution stating UNIFIL was to go into Lebanon and disarm all militias including Hezbollah and to monitor activities in Lebanon that could lead to a war with Israel so as to prevent a war from happening.

It did not and the UN admitted it failed. The UN admitted it did nothing as Hezbollah re-armed itself and turned the South of Lebanon into an armed launching pad in which it engaged in terrorist war against Israel.

The UN did nothing as Iran shipped missiles, anti-tank weapons, armaments, bombs, explosives and yes nerve gas through Syria down to the South of Lebanon.

So before you lecture Israel on giving the finger to the UN try accept reality and that is the UN gave the finger to Israel long before Israel gave up on the UN. This is the same UN that had Libya sitting on as Chairman of its Human Rights Committee. This is the same UN that enacted a resolution that called Israel a racist state and equated Zionism with racism. This is the same UN that has been so quick to criticize Israel

for human rights violations but has remained completely silent as Muslim nation after Muslim nation has committed human rights autrocities that have resulted in the killing and torture of millions and far more than anything Israel has ever allegedly done.

This is the same UN that criticizes Israel for wanting to keep an embargo on Lebanon but in the same breath admits it will not stop Hezbollah from rearming itself and doesn't think it is a good idea putting UN forces on the Syrian border of Lebanon even though as we speak, weapons continue to be sent from Iran through Syria to Lebanon making this latest ceasefire a joke.

This is the same UN that criticizes Israel for blowing up Lebanon and killing civilians, and to date it appears somewhere between 800 to 1,300, but remains silent as to Arab autrocities. Let us start with the Algerian government killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in its own country when terrorists hid with them.

Let's try Syria which in one instance shot dead 10,000 civilians as it suspected less then 50 Muslim Brotherhood terrorists hiding with them. Lets mention Iran which to this day lines up and shoots anyone itconsiders against its rule including Sunni Muslims, Bahaiis, Kurds, and Zoreastrians not to mention homo-sexuals, communists or anyone suspected of being sympathetic to the West, i.e., women who dare speak out in favour of full equality.

This is the same UN that says nothing when Egyptian secret police and military kill thousands of civilians who are suspected of being in the Muslim Brotherhood or other opposition groups.

This is the same UN that says nothing about Saudi Arabian military shooting unarmed civilians suspected of being terrorists or hiding terrorists.

So you want to talk about Israel giving the finger to the UN lets talk about the UN giving the finger to Israel with monumental hippocracy and selectivity. Let us talk about the UN which molly coddles dictatorships and tyrants as long as they are in the third world.

Let us talk about the same UN that did nothing as a genocide occurred in Rwanda and Burundi. Let us talk about the same UN that has abandoned millions in Darfur being exterminated simply because they are black and Christian.

Let us talk about the same UN that looks a blind eye to world wide trafficking in human slaves to the Middle East from Africa and looks the other way as certain nations engage in the prostitution and sex trade of children.

Let us talk about the same UN that said nothing when Hezbollah the same people Blackdog dismisses as a harmless annoyance engaged in a civil war in Lebanon and killed thousands of civilians.

That is all conveniently forgotten in your simplistic Israel bad, Hezbollah good lectures.

Me you bet I spit on such comments.

I do not take any of you seriously.

On the other hand unlike you soft, sheltered, suburban pups, I take Hezbollah and Intifada and Hamas and all the other cells of terrorists very seriously because I know maive pups like you would be the first they kill. People like me they know will put up a fight. People like you they prefer to go after. That is their m.o.-don;t fight people who can defend themselves, go after unarmed soft civilians and hide behind civilians once they shoot back or come after you.

That is something you sheltered choir boys never seem to get until the attack happens close to you, then you are the same people who are the first to demand protection.

You remind me of that Canadian twit who went into Iraq and was kidnapped by anti-American guerillas and was shocked he was held hostage. This same twit who went on and on about how evil the US was and how he went to Iraq to help the people, had no problem when American soldiers had to risk their lives to save him. Then it was o.k. This same twit then states once he is back in the comfort of Canada that he was gay but would never say it in Iraq because he knows the people he called vcitims in need of his help would have shot him if they found out he was gay.

Yep you can keep going on trying to paint this world as bad vs good and Israel as being the bad guy but I got news for you-the people you defend want you dead the same way they want all of Israel wiped off the map and all Jews wiped out. This is not a game. And no Blackdog Hezbollah is not just trash talking. These are

well trained, well educated, religious fanatics who are against everything you take for granted and defend. Its wonderful you can afford to dismiss them as a petty annoyance since you don't have your life on the line in either Israel or Iraq or Afghanistan. Me, I don't dismiss them as a petty annoyance and me, I do not take

what Israel so desperately fights for, for granted.

[Figleaf]

If the rest are publicly committed to the eradication of their country, their first priority should be addressing its military shortfalls.

I personally feel that this emphasis on the 'wipe them off the map' thing is a rhetorical trap that Israel's leaders have fallen into. They've internalized their propaganda, so to speak.

Reality check for Israeli leaders: OF COURSE YOUR ENEMIES WANT TO WIPE YOU OUT ... THAT'S WHAT ENEMY MEANS The challenge of statecraft is to get beyond that.

How does diplomacy cope with a countries such as Iran and Syria which maintain that the Jews and their country should be exterminated and are maintaining a proxy army in a neighbouring country in order to further that policy?

That's a difficult challenge for sure. My prescription is you start by avoiding counter-productive things like bombing your neighbors willy-nillly, or inserting settlers on other peoples' land.

Then, you cure any just grounds of complaint that your enemies have, and THEN you demand they do the same. Then you defend yourself determinedly against their extremist fringe for a generation until those attitudes peter out.

If the Israelis have a diplomatic failing it is in their inability to convince many westerners that they have the right to do what is necessary to defend themselves in face of the above.

Maybe the problem there is that they actually, really don't have the right to break international law. Wow, what a concept.

[Figleaf]

... having had both Palestinian and Israeli guts in my face I sputter madly when I hear people like you make such simplistic analysis and see everything so black and white, good versus bad.

1- Guts in your face? I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but even taken literally, I fail to see how that qualifies you as a clear-thinker on this issue.

2- I would say that the very point of my analysis is to avoid the black/white absolutist confusion that permeates the Bush-Likud thinking on this topic.

So let us deal with a few comments I personally found idiotic.

To start with Black Dog once again lectures us all that Hezbollah does not have the means to destroy Israel and simply is engaged in trash talk. Right this is a foot-ball game and the other guy is simply trash talking.

I will say this again, Black Dog makes such simplistic, naive comments, because he has not lived through a missile attack, a bomb exploding a few feet from him, or constantly wondering when walking in a crowd if a bomb will go off.

Black Dog I guarantee you this. If you came to Israel and lived through one missile attack or witnessed one bomb go off and have to scrape body parts, you would not make such idiotic comments such as Hezbollah can not wipe Israel out or is not a danger and fluff it off as trash talk and this is precisely why I am so quick to dismiss your comments when they revert to such simplistic generalizations. I do respect your other views, but sorry when it comes to the threat of terrorism and its consequences, I am truly moved by your ignorance and yes I do get angry.

Unfortunately, getting angry is all you do. You didn't refute Black Dog with facts or logic, you merely denigrated his opinion and claimed to know better. Sorry, but that's not good enough.

As for you Figleaf who obviously writes in a manner which suggests he is an expert ...

Please be assured that my erudition is displayed only to irritate you, never because it comes naturally, or that it represents my actual self. No! My apparent ability to write a clear sentence, to draw fact and argument together, to turn a clever phrase is all an act! In truth I am a drooling idiot, merely posing as someone capable of carrying on discussions.

... let me try one simple concept on you. Lebanese infrastructure was blown up not because Hezbollah might use it, but because Hezbollah was using it.

Let me try this out on you ... that's the same logic Islamic Jihad etc. uses to justify suicide bombings of civilian targets.

In fact, had Israel finished what it started years ago rather then pull out and allow Hezbollah to take over Lebanon and use its infrastructure at will to build an arsenal and launching pad from South Lebanon

no this would not have happened.

"Finish" what, exactly? There is no "finish".

If Israel goes into Lebanon to try pre-empt terrorist attacks from Hezbollah, you argue they are occupying Lebanon and Hezbollah is merely a freedom fighting force.

Israel DID occupy Lebannon and in that regard Hezbollah WAS a freedom fighting force.

When Israel leaves, and is no longer in Lebanon, and then Hezbollah engages in attacks on Israel proper, you still refer to them as an innocent victim ...

I don't think I have ever said Hezbollah is an innocent victim. I think you should be more careful with what you impute to others.

Prior to this recent flare up Israel and Hezbollah each had several complaints with the other. The difference between you and I is that you automatically accept the Israeli complaints and automatically reject any complaints against it. I, on the other hand accept or reject them from any side based on their valididy.

You see Figleaf I have no time of day for someone who is intellectually dishonest and yes I find it intellectually dishonest for you to engage in the comments you do without ever stating or conceding that Israel has the right to exist and would not be fighting Hezbollah or engaged in attacks on Lebanon if it was not under attack.

It is not for you to arrogantly demand what I should state or concede.

However, for your information:

1 - In my view Israeli's constitute a people entitled to the same rights of self-determination as any other people. Theylike any other people, they have the right not to be driven from their homes, transported against their wishes either individually or en masse, or to be molested or killed. They have used their self-determination to constitute a state which is a legitimately thiers. So based on all the forgoing, irrespective of claims made for or against the legitimacy of Israel's creation, TODAY the removal or 'eradication' of Israel could only be accomplished by severe and criminal violations of human rights and international law. Ergo, Israel has the right to exist.

2 - Hezbollah would not be engaged in conflict with Israel if Israel had not occupied Lebanon. In fact, it would not exist if Israel had not occupied Lebanon.

Like Blackdog you feel you can be self-righteous and infer and argue that Israel had no business defending itself.

Israel has no business claiming to be 'defending' itself when it is defying international law by bombing civilian infrastructure remote from the theatre of operations, by attacking neighboring states, and by its long-running illegal occupation of the Palestinians.

Unfortunately your sensitivities are preventing you from hearing this. ... it sounds to you like a moral harangue, but try to hear it as a practical critique for a moment.

See in your simplistic world, Jews should just disappear.

Bullsh*t. Watch yourself ... imputations of this kind are very discourteous.

This is the same UN that criticizes Israel for blowing up Lebanon and killing civilians, and to date it appears somewhere between 800 to 1,300, but remains silent as to Arab autrocities. Let us start with the Algerian government killing hundreds of thousands of civilians...

Let's try Syria which in one instance shot dead 10,000 civilians ...

This is the same UN that says nothing when Egyptian secret police and military kill thousands of civilians ...

For good or ill, the UN's mandate is really only inter-state issues. It is therefore inapproriate to criticise it for not placing emphasis on internal atrocities.

[Wilber]

I personally feel that this emphasis on the 'wipe them off the map' thing is a rhetorical trap that Israel's leaders have fallen into. They've internalized their propaganda, so to speak.

"if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel."

"they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."

Hassan Hasrallah

[Wilber]

I personally feel that this emphasis on the 'wipe them off the map' thing is a rhetorical trap that Israel's leaders have fallen into. They've internalized their propaganda, so to speak.

"Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world. But we must be aware of tricks."

"Anybody who takes a step toward Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury,"

Mahmoud Ahmadinej

"We live a tradition of martyrdom, When I see a Jew before me, I kill him. If every Arab did this, it would be the end of the Jews."

Mustafa Tlas,

Syrian Defence Minister

[Charles Anthony]

If the rest are publicly committed to the eradication of their country, their first priority should be addressing its military shortfalls.

I personally feel that this emphasis on the 'wipe them off the map' thing is a rhetorical trap that Israel's leaders have fallen into. They've internalized their propaganda, so to speak.

Some people insist that the "translation" of "wipe them off the map" for English speakers is a fabrication and a blatant lie.

The most infamous quote, "Israel must be wiped off the map", is the most glaringly wrong. In his October 2005 speech, Mr. Ahmadinejad never used the word "map" or the term "wiped off". According to Farsi-language experts like Juan Cole and even right-wing services like MEMRI, what he actually said was "this regime that is occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Putting Words in Ahmadinejad's Mouth by Virginia Tilley

http://www.counterpunch.org/tilley08282006.html

Read the rest of the article, it goes into a lot more detail about his mis-translations.

[Wilber]

"this regime that is occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

True, things often don't translate word for word but assuming what he really said was the above, what do you think he meant by it? What is your concept of "vanishing from the face of time"?

[Charles Anthony]

True, things often don't translate word for word but assuming what he really said was the above, what do you think he meant by it?

Read the rest of the article. Your answers are there.

What is your concept of "vanishing from the face of time"?

It does not matter what I think because I did not say it. What matters is what Ahmadinejad said and how to properly translate his words. He did not speak in English.

[Wilber]

In view of the rhetoric that has been coming from the likes of Syria, Iran, Hezbollah etc I find it laughable that some are suggesting it is the Israelis who need lessons in diplomacy. It would seem that some people can mouth off anything they please and there will always be someone around to apologize for them.

[Wilber]

It does not matter what I think because I did not say it. What matters is what Ahmadinejad said and how to properly translate his words. He did not speak in English.

What is the point of having a forum if the only thing that matters is what we personally say?

[KrustyKidd]

According to al-Jazeera, what he actually said was "The real cure for the conflict is the elimination of the Zionist regime, but there should be an immediate ceasefire first."

Ok, semantics. What he is preaching is the elimination of Israel by whatever or whatever. You don't eliminate a country without killing poeple as we all know, Israel will not hand over a government to anybody without a fight of some sort.

Anyhow, this is all crap to begin with as Iran has no true agenda to do anything to Israel as they are merely postioning to usurp Saudi Arabia as the patriarch of the Islamic world and, hatred of the Jews is a given if they are to assume that postition. Along with that goes the rest such as holding back the great powers and gaining nulcear power etc. The other end of the stick is the Wizard (council and all) being found they didn't bring the progress and rewards the revolution promised. Instead of servitude under the Shah it brought them so called freedom, war, oppression and a look into the outside world that that shows their government cannot or will not permit them real freedom.

Yes, if I were Ahmadinejad and had been a member of the goverment for over twenty years and, were commited to carrying out the council's will then I certainly would be toeing their line as well. A line that is carefully composed to play all sides to keep their country in place rather than allow another government to take over.

[Figleaf]

I personally feel that this emphasis on the 'wipe them off the map' thing is a rhetorical trap that Israel's leaders have fallen into. They've internalized their propaganda, so to speak.

"if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel."

"they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."

Hassan Hasrallah

I think you missed my point. I don't deny that the rhetoric exists, I merely suggest that the conclusions the Bush-Likud propagandists urge be drawn from it are a trap. It is a trap because their response to that rhetoric is the wrong one, as I believe I addressed somewhat above.

[Wilber]

I personally feel that this emphasis on the 'wipe them off the map' thing is a rhetorical trap that Israel's leaders have fallen into. They've internalized their propaganda, so to speak.

"if they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."

"There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel."

"they are a cancer which is liable to spread again at any moment."

Hassan Hasrallah

I think you missed my point. I don't deny that the rhetoric exists, I merely suggest that the conclusions the Bush-Likud propagandists urge be drawn from it are a trap. It is a trap because their response to that rhetoric is the wrong one, as I believe I addressed somewhat above.

Like I said, there are people in this world who say anything they want and there are always those who will apologize for them and say they didn't really mean it. I alone am responsible for what I say and any consequences it may bring. If I threaten someone with violence and punch him in the mouth, I expect him to retaliate. I have no control over the severity of that retaliation nor do I have the right to expect any.

If you had people armed to the teeth a few miles from where you live saying the same things and occasionally acting on those words, you might take them a little differently.