Willfully Blind to Terror's Source

[betsy]

On another note, I couldn't help but notice Betsy's aversion to Muslims. Knowing that Betsy hails from the Phillipines, I can't help but think that she is bringing some of her "old world" garbage here to Canada.

Sorry to disappoint you there, Tem. No negative excess baggage came with me to Canada.

In my youth, I was indifferent to the Christian-Muslim problems happening in a far-off island. I was the regular kid more concerned about peers and fashion and fretting over the cool things.

My parents never told me anything bad about Muslims...and they're regular news readers with the daily subscription of the papers. I did not waste my youth feeding and nurturing anger, resentment and hate, unlike others I could mention. Therefore, I carry no chips on my shoulders....which can alter and distort one's views.

As an adult I partook of the papers and read here and there.

My current views of terrorism started with 9/11. Plain and simple.

[betsy]

Personally, I like the Arabs and the Jews.

They were the only ones who came here and didn't try to make the Aboriginal people to be like them or force their religion on them...nor did either religion build a residential school like the Christians were climbing over themselves to do.

Why, did the Arabs ever had a shot of "colonizing" this land? Thus you can confidently compare them with the European colonizers?

You gave an interesting vision though. What do you think? Would you all be adoring a different God by now. What are the chances that you would've been an extinct race?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Riverwind,

Try again:

QUOTE

This afternoon, BC Ombudsman Dulcie McCallum will release a report on the Dukabor children who were taken from their families in the 1950s and put in a special school.

The Dukabors are a very weird cult, even to this day. Check out 'The sons of freedom' in BC.

[Argus]

Personally, I like the Arabs and the Jews.

They were the only ones who came here and didn't try to make the Aboriginal people to be like them or force their religion on them...nor did either religion build a residential school like the Christians were climbing over themselves to do.

The Jews are not prostletizers, and the Muslims would simply have killed you or converted you, flat out. But they didn't have the numbers.

Although people may decry Islamic suicide bombers or Israeli right-wing extremists, I can say with some conviction that neither the Jewish or Muslim religion used their faith to get at and rape Native children like the Christian religions did.

I thought the rape of native children was a local sport, at least on the reservations. It certainly has no religious context to it, that I'm aware of. Most of the "abuse" of native children is wildly exaggerated, designed to get yet more free money out of the taxpayer's pockets. There was some, granted, but I'm willing to bet the rape percenrage of native children at Christian schools is less than the percentage of native children raped now on the reservations by natives.

On another note, I couldn't help but notice Betsy's aversion to Muslims. Knowing that Betsy hails from the Phillipines, I can't help but think that she is bringing some of her "old world" garbage here to Canada.

If she liked to eat human flesh would that be considered "new world garbage" given the dietary choices of some of your ancestors?

[LonJowett]

I thought the rape of native children was a local sport, at least on the reservations. It certainly has no religious context to it, that I'm aware of. Most of the "abuse" of native children is wildly exaggerated, designed to get yet more free money out of the taxpayer's pockets. There was some, granted, but I'm willing to bet the rape percenrage of native children at Christian schools is less than the percentage of native children raped now on the reservations by natives.

Are you capable of backing up any of your bullshit with actual facts. Every opinion is based "feelings" you have or your "wilingness to bet"! Spew racist crap all you want, but at least come up with intelligent facts and not stupid unsubstantiated uninformed ideas you have while sitting at the computer.

I'm willing to bet your a fat whtie middleaged unmarried suburban jew. But thats just a guess.

[kimmy]

I'm willing to bet your a fat whtie middleaged unmarried suburban jew. But thats just a guess.

Would it matter to you if he were fat, white, single, suburban, or (heaven help us) Jewish?

-k

[AndrewL]

Lorne Gunter is really rather simple minded....

All of Britains terror problems come from Pakistan. Does anybody really believe that Britains colonialist past has nothing at all to do with why she is a target? Nothing at all???

Can anybody not understand that all religions lead to hatred and violence. But to keep it in perspective, we are still talking about a few thousand muslims out of over a billion world wide.

Take this story for instance:

Indonesian authorities have postponed the execution of three Catholics found guilty of the sectarian murder of 200 Muslims following an intervention from the Pope. Christians organize the massacre of muslims

Yes. Shocking isnt it. Christians organized a terrorist attack that killed 200 muslims. Can you believe it, those peace loving christians with blood on their hands. Gimme a break...

How does Gunter explain the massive ethnic cleansing by Christians against Muslims in the former Yugoslavia. Has he never heard of Srebrenica?

How does he explain the annual orgy of violence between Protestants and Catholics every year in the UK?

How does he explain the Christian terrorism in India?

How does he explain the Christian terrorism in Africa?

How does he explain the Jewish terrorist groups Irgun and Lehi?

How does he explain state capitalist secualr terrorism, otherwise reffered to as collateral damage?

What Gunter fails to realize is that terrorism/violence/murder is only facilitated by religion (every religion except perhaps Budhisms and its offshoots), it makes it easier to commit violence and murder if somebody is stupid enough to believe that god actually exists and is offering rewards and punishments to hairless talking apes on planet earth.

The reality is that colonialism, unfair free trade, the ever present battle for resources, narrow minded self interested economic policies, proxy miliatries created by state actors (including the US) and foreign military occupations are the true causes of terrorism. Religion only makes it easier, but it is not a primary cause. To think that is to be as dumb as David Frum and Lorne Gunter and the rest of the Canadian neo-conservative crowd and their shallow minds.

Andrew

[Temagami Scourge]

I thought the rape of native children was a local sport, at least on the reservations. It certainly has no religious context to it, that I'm aware of. Most of the "abuse" of native children is wildly exaggerated, designed to get yet more free money out of the taxpayer's pockets. There was some, granted, but I'm willing to bet the rape percenrage of native children at Christian schools is less than the percentage of native children raped now on the reservations by natives.

Are you capable of backing up any of your bullshit with actual facts. Every opinion is based "feelings" you have or your "wilingness to bet"! Spew racist crap all you want, but at least come up with intelligent facts and not stupid unsubstantiated uninformed ideas you have while sitting at the computer.

I'm willing to bet your a fat whtie middleaged unmarried suburban jew. But thats just a guess.

Lon: In my experience, fiction and myth are to Argus what a pillow and blankey is to a two-year old...something to hold on to with all your power because it is the only thing that you know that is your own. I disagree with your assessment of Argus being "a fat, white, middle-aged, unmarried suburban Jew" because that would be an insult to actual fat, white, middle-aged unmarried suburban Jewry.

I see Argus as more of a "special" buddy that only requires a little guidance and "fact" every now and again. All I can say is don't partake in a battle of wits with Argus as he usually shows up unarmed.

cheers!

[Riverwind]

Are you capable of backing up any of your bullshit with actual facts. Every opinion is based "feelings" you have or your "wilingness to bet"! Spew racist crap all you want, but at least come up with intelligent facts and not stupid unsubstantiated uninformed ideas you have while sitting at the computer.

Let's see. A native poster says "Muslims may kill innocent people with bombs but at least they don't rape children like Christians". In response, a non-native poster points out that "native children are abused by other natives". You respond with outrage at the second poster? What kind of bizarro world do you live in? Perhaps you should look in a mirror before you start calling other people racist.

[Topaz]

This issue is so difficult to find the answer or maybe there too many answers. It seems to me, that the the saying, East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet, explains some of it. The Middle-East customs are so different from the west. I think education are both sides is a must and try to understand each other. What most people want is peace and freedom and there's others that want greed and and power! Nations egos are one reason, I think, there's so much unrest in the world.

[Temagami Scourge]

Are you capable of backing up any of your bullshit with actual facts. Every opinion is based "feelings" you have or your "wilingness to bet"! Spew racist crap all you want, but at least come up with intelligent facts and not stupid unsubstantiated uninformed ideas you have while sitting at the computer.

Let's see. A native poster says "Muslims may kill innocent people with bombs but at least they don't rape children like Christians". In response, a non-native poster points out that "native children are abused by other natives". You respond with outrage at the second poster? What kind of bizarro world do you live in? Perhaps you should look in a mirror before you start calling other people racist.

Lon: A word of caution: River is the kind of poster that often relies on Saturday morning cowboy movies as his source of "real" history. The one good thing is that he at least doesn't start his sentences with the phrase: "The Great White Mother Commands Her Red Children to..."

[Temagami Scourge]

This issue is so difficult to find the answer or maybe there too many answers. It seems to me, that the the saying, East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet, explains some of it. The Middle-East customs are so different from the west. I think education are both sides is a must and try to understand each other. What most people want is peace and freedom and there's others that want greed and and power! Nations egos are one reason, I think, there's so much unrest in the world.

I agree with you Topaz. I would only add that I can't figure out the basis for the deep-seated hatred between Arabs and Israelis.

To me, they are the same tribe.

I know many Jews and Arabs and, being into anthropology, I can't help but notice numerous physical similarities. For instance, both seem to have curly hair more often than not, both have rather impressive noses, both have people whose eyes tend to bulge out, but to me, the piece-de-resistance is their language.

Both languages are nasally-based, but certain words not only sound the same, but mean the same thing! Jews greet you with a hearty "Shalom", while an Arab-speaker will greet you with a "Salaam". To compare, the Cree greeting is "Tansi", while the Mohawk use "Sago"....and yet Canadians regard Native people in this country as being all one group!

Given these similarities, one can argue that the Jews and Arabs were likely one Nation, and not too far in the distant past either if their languages are so strikingly similar. To see what I mean, take the opportunity to listen to Arabs and Jews converse among themselves...even some of the gestures both groups use when making a point bear a resemblence.

fascinating if it wasn't so frightening....

[Rue]

This issue is so difficult to find the answer or maybe there too many answers. It seems to me, that the the saying, East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet, explains some of it. The Middle-East customs are so different from the west. I think education are both sides is a must and try to understand each other. What most people want is peace and freedom and there's others that want greed and and power! Nations egos are one reason, I think, there's so much unrest in the world.

I agree with you Topaz. I would only add that I can't figure out the basis for the deep-seated hatred between Arabs and Israelis.

To me, they are the same tribe.

I know many Jews and Arabs and, being into anthropology, I can't help but notice numerous physical similarities. For instance, both seem to have curly hair more often than not, both have rather impressive noses, both have people whose eyes tend to bulge out, but to me, the piece-de-resistance is their language.

Both languages are nasally-based, but certain words not only sound the same, but mean the same thing! Jews greet you with a hearty "Shalom", while an Arab-speaker will greet you with a "Salaam". To compare, the Cree greeting is "Tansi", while the Mohawk use "Sago"....and yet Canadians regard Native people in this country as being all one group!

Given these similarities, one can argue that the Jews and Arabs were likely one Nation, and not too far in the distant past either if their languages are so strikingly similar. To see what I mean, take the opportunity to listen to Arabs and Jews converse among themselves...even some of the gestures both groups use when making a point bear a resemblence.

fascinating if it wasn't so frightening....

I think you mean well in your comments but they are a tad simplistic. The fact is Jews and Arabs are both semites and bothdescended from Abraham. This dude Abraham had two sons. One son he sent out into the desert and the other he kept. See this dude Abraham's wife was having problems having children and God kept telling him he needed a son (at least so the Bible says). So Abe goes out and finds a Mistress and has a son. (yep in those days if your wife couldn't get pregnant that is what you did-what adultery you say...leave that for now) Then just as Abe thinks thinks are cool, his wife gets pregnant. So now he has a legitimate son but an illegitimate one too. So he sent his Mistress and bastard son out into the desert and yep you guessed it that son grows up and is the beginning of the people who end up as Muslims. So yep, Jews and Muslims come from Abraham and yes the semitic people are from the same "race" but I wouldn't go too far with the stereotyping of Jews and Arabs having big noses and black curly hair. Yes some do have big honking noses and sound nasal. Then again many do not. Its like saying all aboriginals look he same. Not quite.

That said, the tribal war between Jews and Muslims and Christians in the Middle East flows from religious beliefs in all three religions that causes clashes and conflicts and competing land claims.

The fact is if the descendants of the Middle East thought more on the lines of many aboriginal nations, i.e., that everyone shares the earth and does not own it, they might have had an easier time co-existing.

That said, I do not know how this post ended up getting so nasty and how fat Jews from the suburbs got into this. I am a Jew and I am not fat yet but I am from the suburbs so I am getting a little paranoid!

All kidding aside, can we just accept this simple fact-there is a festering, unresolved land claim between the native peoples and many provincial, federal and municipal governments. Its a legal issue.

The current stalemate is not a matter of aboriginals being terrorists or current non natives being evil land owners either. It is a tragic result of history and past bargaining in bad faith.

The fact is the current government has not taken any leadership in this current stalemate and is hoping by doing nothing the matter will go away it won't.

Hell I am ready myself to serve as a mediator. Can't we just have the appropriate government representatives agree to sit down with the appropriate native leaders and mediate these land claims? What is the big deal?

You ask me yes I understand the frustration of non natives who feel there is a double standard and that natives are allowed one set of laws and them another. You ask me yes I also understand that the native people have serious legal claims and therefore a long simmering basis for their utter frustration with trying to resolve certain land claims. Both sides have reasons for what they are doing. Aboriginals are not terrorists. They haven't hurt or killed anyone. Sure some of them are hot heads. But so are non natives at the scene. There is a lot of unecessary testosterone.

What I say is I understand both sides need to talk and they need to talk now.

And by the way, all anyone has to do is read some of the native responses on these posts to see where they are coming from? Does it sound terrorist to you? To me it sounds like people simply trying to explain history and unresolved problems...they don't sound like Hezbollah to me. They aint saying they will wipe you out and shoot missiles at you. They are simply stating talk to us as equals. What's the big deal? How does it harm any of us to admit some of the native writers to these posts no more about the history of Ontario then any of us...maybe its because they have the most to lose if they don't remember the past? Maybe because unlike us non natives, their very existence is tied to the soil and land rights they are talking about? That as a Jew I understand. That as a spiritual person I understand. Asking me for some respect isn't much to ask. A little respect will go along way.

[BubberMiley]

I think you mean well in your comments but they are a tad simplistic. The fact is Jews and Arabs are both semites and bothdescended from Abraham. This dude Abraham had two sons. One son he sent out into the desert and the other he kept. See this dude Abraham's wife was having problems having children and God kept telling him he needed a son (at least so the Bible says). So Abe goes out and finds a Mistress and has a son. (yep in those days if your wife couldn't get pregnant that is what you did-what adultery you say...leave that for now) Then just as Abe thinks thinks are cool, his wife gets pregnant. So now he has a legitimate son but an illegitimate one too. So he sent his Mistress and bastard son out into the desert and yep you guessed it that son grows up and is the beginning of the people who end up as Muslims.

If you get your genetic history from the bible, do you think the world was created in six days too? Talk about a tad simplistic.

[Argus]

I thought the rape of native children was a local sport, at least on the reservations. It certainly has no religious context to it, that I'm aware of. Most of the "abuse" of native children is wildly exaggerated, designed to get yet more free money out of the taxpayer's pockets. There was some, granted, but I'm willing to bet the rape percenrage of native children at Christian schools is less than the percentage of native children raped now on the reservations by natives.

Are you capable of backing up any of your bullshit with actual facts.

If I put some effort into it I probably could. Everyone who looked at the methodology used to reward .. excuse me, to "compensate" natives who had been abused one way or another in those schools knows that no actual proof was required, other than that you probably actually WENT to a residential school at some time or another. Tell a sad story, and get your cheque. There was, naturally enough, massive fraud.

As for crime rates, alcoholism and drug abuse on the reserve, those are well-known. And that is the perfect environment for sexual abuse of every kind.

I'm willing to bet your a fat whtie middleaged unmarried suburban jew. But thats just a guess.

Is there something particularly wrong about any of that? I mean, being white and middle-aged is a crime? You don't like Jews? Or is it fat people you dislike? Go ahead, tell us all. We'd love to hear about your antisocial personality disorders.

[Argus]

Actually, I have many times in other threads. There is nothing in Qu'ran itself that justifies the sucide bombings - the religious justification comes from an interpretation of Islam that many Muslims reject. However, even though suicide bombings are not condoned by Islam and many Muslims reject the idea them there are also many Muslim that do support suicide bombings. There are no Christians that condone the abuse of children.

Of course there is, theres justification for unspeakable violence in each of the holy texts. All of them in one part or another preach that non-believers are the enemy and should be put to the sword.

True, to a certain degree. Except that Jesus was a shepherd who preached about peace while Muhammed was a warrior prince and the Koran written during a war of conquest. Do both contain incitements to violence? Sure. But the Koran contains a lot more of it. More importantly, Christian society has re-interpreted the messages in the bible since the dark ages and no longer believes in violence of those passages. The clerics of the Muslim world has taken the position that no re-interpretation is allowable, and that the word of the Koran is the unadulterated word of God. So Muslims still DO believe in the incitement of their holy texts. Which is why they do things like cut people's heads off and commit suicide bombings.

[Argus]

Lorne Gunter is really rather simple minded....

All of Britains terror problems come from Pakistan. Does anybody really believe that Britains colonialist past has nothing at all to do with why she is a target? Nothing at all???

It had lots to do with the problems in that Britain now has tons of Pakistanis living among them. Open immigration would be a more proper place to put the blame, though. Along with idiotic multiculturalism policies which isolated and kept newcomers as outsiders, and which allowed all sorts of troublemakers into the country to preech to the masses.

This is a problem in Canada as well. Most of the mosques built in Canada, the US, and the UK were funded by Saudi money, and have Saudi wahabi imams because of that. This is, in large measure, the cause of the radicalization of western Muslims.

So how does this dual psychology - of victimhood, but also the desire for domination - come to infect so many young Muslims in Britain? When I was here in the early 1970s, the practice of Islam was dominated by a kind of default Sufism or Islamic mysticism that was pietistic and apolitical. On my return in the late 1980s, the situation had changed radically. The change occurred because successive governments were unaware that the numerous mosques being established across the length and breadth of this country were being staffed, more and more, with clerics who belonged to various fundamentalist movements.

There were no criteria for entry, no way of evaluating qualifications and no programme for making them aware of the culture that they were entering.

Telegraph

The reality is that colonialism, unfair free trade, the ever present battle for resources, narrow minded self interested economic policies, proxy miliatries created by state actors (including the US) and foreign military occupations are the true causes of terrorism.

Demonstrably untrue, for where would you then search out the hotbeds of terrorism? Why, in Africa, of course, which is certainly the most mistreated, misbegotten, screwed up, poverty stricken place on Earth. Yet there is very little terrorism there. Instead we get it from places like Saudi Arabia.

[geoffrey]

I thought the rape of native children was a local sport, at least on the reservations. It certainly has no religious context to it, that I'm aware of. Most of the "abuse" of native children is wildly exaggerated, designed to get yet more free money out of the taxpayer's pockets. There was some, granted, but I'm willing to bet the rape percenrage of native children at Christian schools is less than the percentage of native children raped now on the reservations by natives.

Are you capable of backing up any of your bullshit with actual facts. Every opinion is based "feelings" you have or your "wilingness to bet"! Spew racist crap all you want, but at least come up with intelligent facts and not stupid unsubstantiated uninformed ideas you have while sitting at the computer.

I'm willing to bet your a fat whtie middleaged unmarried suburban jew. But thats just a guess.

I figure this is the same poster that called me a fat, middle-aged, balding, depressed, white man.

Argus, considering that 35% of Indians claim to be victims of some sort of violent crime, your likely right that more suffer sexual assaults on reservations than in the schools. Three times as likely.

In Saskatchewan, for example, 76% of inmates are Indians, and they are only 8% of the population. So it's very clear statistically who is the more corrupt and violent group in society.

If we, people born after residential schools, are to be held liable for actions of people that mostly died before we were born, who is responsible for the massive burden Indians place on our justice system and our society through the reckless crime that they commit?

Here's your stats: http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/85F0...3MIE2001001.pdf

Let's see all your documented evidence that white Christians are more violent.

Argus is likely correct.

[Yaro]

True, to a certain degree. Except that Jesus was a shepherd who preached about peace while Muhammed was a warrior prince and the Koran written during a war of conquest. Do both contain incitements to violence? Sure. But the Koran contains a lot more of it. More importantly, Christian society has re-interpreted the messages in the bible since the dark ages and no longer believes in violence of those passages. The clerics of the Muslim world has taken the position that no re-interpretation is allowable, and that the word of the Koran is the unadulterated word of God. So Muslims still DO believe in the incitement of their holy texts. Which is why they do things like cut people's heads off and commit suicide bombings.

Just because modern Christians (moderate ones anyways) have decided to disregard segments of the bible does not change the content or obvious meaning of those passages. The primary difference between the Bible and the Qu'ran is that the Bible was written by dozens of people, many parts by committee while the Qu'ran was written largely by a single man and leaves very little in the way of conflicting passages while the Bible is so contridictory the fact that anyone could take it seriously is laughable.

As to why Muslims tend to follow in a more literal path its really rather simple, education. Take Iraq for instance, pre-desert shield Iraq was easily the most educated country in the middle east, hardly surprising that it was also the most secular. This pattern can be followed all across the middle east and indeed the world. Another pattern is that quality of life tends to be inversely proportional to religious fervor and overt violence, the Muslims in much of the middle east have gotten a very raw deal, they have been beaten on for generations and they are to a large extent very pissed about it. Its hardly surprising that those members of the Muslim community with the drive and ability to fight back would use the tool of religion to motivate the largely ignorant masses to action against the enemies of these leaders. It is to a large extent the story of human history.

Demonstrably untrue, for where would you then search out the hotbeds of terrorism? Why, in Africa, of course, which is certainly the most mistreated, misbegotten, screwed up, poverty stricken place on Earth. Yet there is very little terrorism there. Instead we get it from places like Saudi Arabia.

True to an extent and I can see the argument but it could be argued that Terrorism is rife in Africa, we never hear about it mind you but certainly carnage on a scale unmatched anywhere else in the modern world exists.