Judge Slams Indian Actions

[yam]

If you truly think that is what is meant by "shape shifting" you need to read Carlos Castenada.

He believed his teacher Don Juan, helped him turn into a bird.

Bah....I can turn into an asshole at the drop of a hat.

What? You mean you can turn into an additional asshole at the drop of a hat.

[Who's Doing What?]

LOL. ah yes. We got ourselves one good ole boy telling me he is an expert on spirituality and seen and done it all and so yes siree his being a spiritually enlightened man has led him to his current path of ultimate awareness. Yes Sir, I am talkin to a man who has seen the light and them sone.

And what do we have hear, yet another genius making remarks about feathers 'n such. Yeehaw! Just bust my britches laffin. Can't wait until we burn some crosses and maybe beat up or kill some of these savages. Yuck. Yuck.

This is what happens when debate property rights?

Look at the level of hatred directed at ALL aboriginals in these comments and tell me do you really expect anyone aboriginal to respond other then someone like Tsi?

Got news for us all. The only people who respond to such people, are warriors. Y'all really expect anyone moderate to even begin to try engage in discussions with such enlightened souls?

Yah you good ole boys got lotsto worry 'bout. Yes siree, them aboriginals want your trailers.

Maybe I came to my senses and realised most of it is pure Crap. You know, like what comes out of your mouth.

Keep trying though sooner or later you will have to hit on something you have a clue about.

[S.S.]

Rue,

Why don't you take a look back at the starting of all of these native postings? Take a look and you tell me who started with the racist crap. It was Tsi, Okwahu, Yam, and a few others who threw their native superiority crap out. Since they started it along with the bullshit, some of us such as me, decided to troll just like they do and send it back. Tit for tat.

Hey Tsi... can you shape-shift into a bunch of electrons and migrate to my IP address? Maybe we can have a few rounds of hide-and-seek and some tomahawk chop?

[yam]

I actually do not know how you can look at your `self in the mirror every single day and be happy with yourself. I also dont know how anybody could EVER communicate with you positively. You are nothing short of a monster. And anybody that would not consider your chosen title is equally disgusting. You are the FILTH of the earth.

If i had signed in as 'Christian Shagger' i would have been banned. You have not. It says everything about Canadian society. You are backward people. You have a lot to learn. There are many countries that support F/ns - sns in their fight against the canadian neanderthol. If you came to my countries - EU and one other you would be spat on at the safest and feel lucky. You would need police protection from all the people that would like to see you handicapped. . . . not dead but living in pain. You are a regressive people and have a world reputation for being so.

[S.S.]

I actually do not know how you can look at your `self in the mirror every single day and be happy with yourself. I also dont know how anybody could EVER communicate with you positively. You are nothing short of a monster. And anybody that would not consider your chosen title is equally disgusting. You are the FILTH of the earth.

If i had signed in as 'Christian Shagger' i would have been banned. You have not. It says everything about Canadian society. You are backward people. You have a lot to learn. There are many countries that support F/ns - sns in their fight against the canadian neanderthol. If you came to my countries - EU and one other you would be spat on at the safest and feel lucky. You would need police protection from all the people that would like to see you handicapped. . . . not dead but living in pain. You are a regressive people and have a world reputation for being so.

Just a joke Yam... I don't only shag squaws, any female is fair game.

I wonder when Tsi, et al, were sleuthing and shape-shifting around Caledonia, catching kids jerk it to porn, etc, I wonder how many white women they watched undress and shower?????

[yam]

What you shag are sinply these:

a) your mother = dutch courage

any woman of colour against het wishes because its the only way you feel power

c) a sheep. This is where you feel most comfortable.

They do not find the things you find stimulating. Rather, i bet they spew up without trace . . . .

your name should be SS which means 'sheep shagger'. Not squaw shagger - in your dreams - well at least willingly in your dreams - rapist blood that is what you are. Canadian eager christian pale faces just dont have spark - right?

[S.S.]

Why is it that you presume that I am both Christian and a Canadian? Maybe I am neither, maybe I am both - I have said nothing that would lead you to believe either scenerio. Can we say 'prejudice' boys and girls?

[Charles Anthony]

Guys, stop being rude.

[Rue]

Rue,

Why don't you take a look back at the starting of all of these native postings? Take a look and you tell me who started with the racist crap. It was Tsi, Okwahu, Yam, and a few others who threw their native superiority crap out. Since they started it along with the bullshit, some of us such as me, decided to troll just like they do and send it back. Tit for tat.

Hey Tsi... can you shape-shift into a bunch of electrons and migrate to my IP address? Maybe we can have a few rounds of hide-and-seek and some tomahawk chop?

LOL. He started it. Nyah. Nyah. My pee pee is bigger then yours.

O.k. now that..this has been settled with enlightened dialogue, I feel better.

[yam]

Why is it that you presume that I am both Christian and a Canadian? Maybe I am neither, maybe I am both - I have said nothing that would lead you to believe either scenerio. Can we say 'prejudice' boys and girls?

Because your attitude is paticularly canadian. It still uses the language and belief system of its conquerers. Canada has not got over them yet. That is concerning racism - anti-natives, anti-abortion issues, sexism and more. You stand out in the international arena for this.

You ask can we use the term prejudice to make it more PC. Yet you ask that with a name like Squaw Shagger. its very sad and extremely ignorant anywhere else in the world you would be embarrassed at your own stupidity. How many years is it going to take to get over your oppression as feeling superior to all else when all else is laughing at you?

[S.S.]

Shows how wrong you are Yammy Yam.

I am neither Canadian (nor even North American) or Christian (and never have been, although my homeland is predominantly Christian). Have any more guesses based on the few sentences that I have written? Before you guess British, that's wrong too. English is my second language.

I chose this name with one purpose in mind - to troll and to piss off the likes of you, Tsi, and Okwahu. It seems to have worked as you are responding with strong hate, and the others haven't responded to any posting on this forum since my first post.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

I chose this name with one purpose in mind - to troll and to piss off the likes of you, Tsi, and Okwahu.

What a moron, eh? She thinks she can rattle a couple of ghosts......

Keep trying.....I want to keep laughing......

O:nen

[yam]

Shows how wrong you are Yammy Yam.

I am neither Canadian (nor even North American) or Christian (and never have been, although my homeland is predominantly Christian). Have any more guesses based on the few sentences that I have written? Before you guess British, that's wrong too. English is my second language.

I chose this name with one purpose in mind - to troll and to piss off the likes of you, Tsi, and Okwahu. It seems to have worked as you are responding with strong hate, and the others haven't responded to any posting on this forum since my first post.

Hey Kid. I would not brag about that if i was you. It shows just how ASSIMILATED YOU ARE. So much for freedom of thought and expression on your side. You dont have any. Keep kissing the preachers a$$ . . . the church and state. Its your only source of identity - a moron that worships morons.

[Who's Doing What?]

She:kon!

I chose this name with one purpose in mind - to troll and to piss off the likes of you, Tsi, and Okwahu.

What a moron, eh? She thinks she can rattle a couple of ghosts......

Keep trying.....I want to keep laughing......

O:nen

Laugh all you want. You still aren't getting MY land.

[Who's Doing What?]

Shows how wrong you are Yammy Yam.

I am neither Canadian (nor even North American) or Christian (and never have been, although my homeland is predominantly Christian). Have any more guesses based on the few sentences that I have written? Before you guess British, that's wrong too. English is my second language.

I chose this name with one purpose in mind - to troll and to piss off the likes of you, Tsi, and Okwahu. It seems to have worked as you are responding with strong hate, and the others haven't responded to any posting on this forum since my first post.

Hey Kid. I would not brag about that if i was you. It shows just how ASSIMILATED YOU ARE. So much for freedom of thought and expression on your side. You dont have any. Keep kissing the preachers a$$ . . . the church and state. Its your only source of identity - a moron that worships morons.

Ya people who believe in Jesus are so much more foolish than those who believe they can shape shift, or that they are linked spiritually with an animal.

I laugh at you.

[g_bambino]

Ya people who believe in Jesus are so much more foolish than those who believe they can shape shift, or that they are linked spiritually with an animal.

I laugh at you.

Yea, and it's "freedom of thought" as long as you freely think what they tell you to.

[S.S.]

Had a squaw named Aleshanee from Brantford last night... do you know her Yam? She liked to play all the time!

[Rue]

I chose to sit on the side-lines and read most of the posts on the property rights debate between the native nations and the Ontario government because I truly believe good legal arguements can be made from both sides of the table and it will take creative minds to find a peaceful and fair way to juggle and find mutually acceptable methods to enable both sets of rights to be recognized and properly treated.

I only injected myself into the debates when I noticed the topic turned from property rights to ridiculing aborignals as people and because of their culture.

Nothing in what I read Tsi in this dialogue suggested he felt he was superior to anyone or was making anti-white comments until I saw the anti-aboriginal sentiments come out in words.

I also think someone who uses the post name squaw shagger and discusses all women the way he does aboriginals, with contempt and hatred, is someone whose insecurity and bigotry is transparent.

I am disgusted we can not talk to native people without deliberately insulting their beliefs.

The issue was property rights and Tsi's comments about shape shifting were allegories that obviously went over the heads of some of you.

Now I would like to bring this back to where it started because this is one non native who will not sit by quietly and watch anyone insulted because of their heritage and I slung some back but I am the first to admit its pointless.

Here is the cold hard reality of the situation. Native peoples have very strong, coherent, legal rights that are going to be inunciated in the court system. These rights will not simply go away because they are inconvenient to some business interests of some developers.

The federal and provincial governments are not stupid. They know they may lose on many of these land claim arguements and so in the last twenty years have been desperately trying to avoid litigation through out of court settlements.

To some of you it may look like the current provincial government is gutless. Well of course they are. That same gutless comes from internal legal opinions advising them its a no win situation for them if they push these land right issues.

If you bother to actually read or listen to what native representatives have actually stated in regards to land negotiations, you would also know that what many of you think is intransigence or being entrenched in a particular position is in fact negotiation and typical and to be expected in such negotiations.

I will not accept the notion that our laws and courts can not find solutions to these property right issues.

I will not accept the train of thought that ridicules native people for trying to enforce historic legal rights.

I do understand the majority of Canadians will choose to live segregated from native peoples and never come to understand their true beliefs and so will continue to engage in the kind of comments that I have seen on some of these posts.

I can not and will not accept the fact that non natives are doomed to having to war with natives over this earth.

I can not and will not because I lived in Israel and I have seen people die over land where they have competing legal rights and I will never accept war and terror and intolerance as solutions.

Now if we want to get into a discussion as to the historic origins of the treaties and legal rights natives are referring to when advocating on their behalf when it comes to property rights, let us do so without insulting them as people.

I would also suggest that if a non native also genuinely learn native practices, all they have to do is ask but you will never begin to understand it if you first approach it with a closed mind and believe it is stupid or does not make sense because it is different then the way you conceptualize things.

And not that it matters, but if any of you are interested, you can also learn how certain aboriginal customs as to solving conflicts are being incorporated into our legal systems just as their spiritual practices are

being incorporated into our medical practices.

People with far more Western education and degrees then most of us on these posts are not afraid to learn from aboriginals and ask them for guidance.

What I am clearly saying is before this is over, we non natives will incorporate aboriginal believes and customs into our laws and other social systems and it will make us better for it.

I also truly believe some of us, not all of us, who are not native, will be able to establish with native peoples that we want to live in peace and share and not hurt or ridicule anyone.

That may sound ridiculously bleeding heart or "pussy" talk to some of you posters but that is what this debate comes down to-property rights are symbols not tangible objects, they are simply symbols or manifestations of how we choose to live with each other on this planet.

Think about it. Our entire legal system as to owning property is simply symbolic. We rent land from the Queen (crown) because she retains full rights to it. We pretend we own the land but in fact we lease it from Queen Liz. Then we say we own it because we go to an office and get a piece of paper that says we do after we go to a bank and get a loan to purchase it. So we in fact claim we own the land but in fact the bank owns it until we pay the bank back. Then say we clear the mortgage...then what..well we have to sell it or die. So the reality is we own butkus. Our whole legal system merely tries to have us share parcels of land in an orderly fashion until we die but no one really owns anything. Its simply fiction to stop us from killing each other over seeing who can control what piece of land.

Aboriginal people do not put down our culture or our legal system our our legal practices because they challenge them. They have a right to. This same Queen Liz's great great great grandparents made treaties with them as to sharing the land. Some of you really do need to at least go back to the Magna Carta act and understand how it like so many other treaties is related directly to aboriginal claims today to exemption to certain laws or rights that would supercede other rights.

Aboriginals did not go around claiming they owned anything. They may have had their own problems with each other prior to we Westerners getting here but none of them went around referring to the land being owned by a Queen. They have always described the earth as a living organism...a living, breathing organism that allows humans to live on its surface and enjoy what it has to offer if we do not ignore its intricate set of natural rules.

When the French and British came to Canada, they both brought with them Chrstitianity, diseases, and concepts as to owning land completely foreign to the existing cultural norms as to sharing the land and being guests on it. We Westerners do not see ourselves as guests on a living element. We see ourselves as conquerors who own and control the earth.

All our concepts are based on might and power and might and power coming from the accumulation of material and by being able to exploit the means of producing that material.

Aboriginal concepts as to economic transaction differ not simply because they were hunters or farmers but because of their concepts as to material goods.

Aboriginal cultures if one must generalize have one clear and different approach from that which we int he Western world accept as a given and that is that value is defined from what we control in terms of material goods. Our whole economy is based on that.

Todays aboriginal nations have had to engage in our form of economy because we give them no other choice. So you want to ridicule aboriginal nations and type-cast them as being criminals for engaging

in illegal tobacco sales or getting involved in casinoes then look twice at what other options we have aboriginals after we broke our treaties with them and superimposed our laws over their laws and customs.

We gave them no other way to eat.Our history is replete with engaging in activities that have made it impossible for them to co-exist and whether it is something as simple as fishing, hunting, snow-mobiles,

spreading diseases, forcefully kidnapping their children and placing them in Christian institutions and imposing Christian religion on them, we have failed. We have failed because quite simply we do not understand that you can not do away with aboriginals by simply shooting them or caging them in invisible cages called reservations.

And no don't try for one second suggest aboriginals have refused to assimilate or make compromises. Our Canadian history is full of vivid examples of how aboriginal nations were and have been more then willing to make compromises and learn from us and borrow some of our concepts...while we on the other hand have done the same. Do not mistake refusing to erase one's culture with refusing to assimilate.

Aboriginal people have as much a right to continue with their traditions as any of you do with your Christian churches and schools.

I will summarize by stating it this simply. You find a mathematical formula that compensates native rights for a proper percentage of any profit derived from the exploitation of the earth in Canada. You also engage in this exploitation respecting the environmental rules of nature and in a way that does not permanently damage the earth and poison and kill people from toxic side effects.

It is possible to engage in ethical, fair, environmentally safe business practices that are safe and fair to us all. This is not utopia I am talking about. I am talking about carefully planned and organized development that is as a result of community interests and not simply greed being represented as the paramount interest.

There have been examples of this already and if we are to properly develop the North and have a future not just in Canada but globally we are going to have to work in this direction.

The alternative is continued war and toxification of the planet and excuse me but I do not feel like gambling, having a smoke, or shitting on someone's belief system today. All I want is a nice peaceful walk and to watch

an osprey catch a fish or see a moose swim across a lake after having sex with Angela Jolie. I do not ask for much.

[deirdrie]

this is from our friend the king of trolls please read

Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne'

Joined: 15 Jun 2006

Posts: 262

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She:kon!

I'll be there on October 15......I'll be the one at the front of the gaunlet inviting Gary to take the first run! I've polished up my war club real pretty like just to show him a good time - Mohawk style!

Gary McHale! Come on down!

Once you get to the end if the line (if you get to the end of the line......) you'll get to see what is behind door number 2.... (Of course by then you'll be fully on Six nations territory and subject to Mohawk

onily in canada folks or is it

[Who's Doing What?]

I chose to sit on the side-lines and read most of the posts on the property rights debate between the native nations and the Ontario government because I truly believe good legal arguements can be made from both sides of the table and it will take creative minds to find a peaceful and fair way to juggle and find mutually acceptable methods to enable both sets of rights to be recognized and properly treated.

I only injected myself into the debates when I noticed the topic turned from property rights to ridiculing aborignals as people and because of their culture.

Nothing in what I read Tsi in this dialogue suggested he felt he was superior to anyone or was making anti-white comments until I saw the anti-aboriginal sentiments come out in words.

I also think someone who uses the post name squaw shagger and discusses all women the way he does aboriginals, with contempt and hatred, is someone whose insecurity and bigotry is transparent.

I am disgusted we can not talk to native people without deliberately insulting their beliefs.

The issue was property rights and Tsi's comments about shape shifting were allegories that obviously went over the heads of some of you.

Now I would like to bring this back to where it started because this is one non native who will not sit by quietly and watch anyone insulted because of their heritage and I slung some back but I am the first to admit its pointless.

Here is the cold hard reality of the situation. Native peoples have very strong, coherent, legal rights that are going to be inunciated in the court system. These rights will not simply go away because they are inconvenient to some business interests of some developers.

The federal and provincial governments are not stupid. They know they may lose on many of these land claim arguements and so in the last twenty years have been desperately trying to avoid litigation through out of court settlements.

To some of you it may look like the current provincial government is gutless. Well of course they are. That same gutless comes from internal legal opinions advising them its a no win situation for them if they push these land right issues.

If you bother to actually read or listen to what native representatives have actually stated in regards to land negotiations, you would also know that what many of you think is intransigence or being entrenched in a particular position is in fact negotiation and typical and to be expected in such negotiations.

I will not accept the notion that our laws and courts can not find solutions to these property right issues.

I will not accept the train of thought that ridicules native people for trying to enforce historic legal rights.

I do understand the majority of Canadians will choose to live segregated from native peoples and never come to understand their true beliefs and so will continue to engage in the kind of comments that I have seen on some of these posts.

I can not and will not accept the fact that non natives are doomed to having to war with natives over this earth.

I can not and will not because I lived in Israel and I have seen people die over land where they have competing legal rights and I will never accept war and terror and intolerance as solutions.

Now if we want to get into a discussion as to the historic origins of the treaties and legal rights natives are referring to when advocating on their behalf when it comes to property rights, let us do so without insulting them as people.

I would also suggest that if a non native also genuinely learn native practices, all they have to do is ask but you will never begin to understand it if you first approach it with a closed mind and believe it is stupid or does not make sense because it is different then the way you conceptualize things.

And not that it matters, but if any of you are interested, you can also learn how certain aboriginal customs as to solving conflicts are being incorporated into our legal systems just as their spiritual practices are

being incorporated into our medical practices.

People with far more Western education and degrees then most of us on these posts are not afraid to learn from aboriginals and ask them for guidance.

What I am clearly saying is before this is over, we non natives will incorporate aboriginal believes and customs into our laws and other social systems and it will make us better for it.

I also truly believe some of us, not all of us, who are not native, will be able to establish with native peoples that we want to live in peace and share and not hurt or ridicule anyone.

That may sound ridiculously bleeding heart or "pussy" talk to some of you posters but that is what this debate comes down to-property rights are symbols not tangible objects, they are simply symbols or manifestations of how we choose to live with each other on this planet.

Think about it. Our entire legal system as to owning property is simply symbolic. We rent land from the Queen (crown) because she retains full rights to it. We pretend we own the land but in fact we lease it from Queen Liz. Then we say we own it because we go to an office and get a piece of paper that says we do after we go to a bank and get a loan to purchase it. So we in fact claim we own the land but in fact the bank owns it until we pay the bank back. Then say we clear the mortgage...then what..well we have to sell it or die. So the reality is we own butkus. Our whole legal system merely tries to have us share parcels of land in an orderly fashion until we die but no one really owns anything. Its simply fiction to stop us from killing each other over seeing who can control what piece of land.

Aboriginal people do not put down our culture or our legal system our our legal practices because they challenge them. They have a right to. This same Queen Liz's great great great grandparents made treaties with them as to sharing the land. Some of you really do need to at least go back to the Magna Carta act and understand how it like so many other treaties is related directly to aboriginal claims today to exemption to certain laws or rights that would supercede other rights.

Aboriginals did not go around claiming they owned anything. They may have had their own problems with each other prior to we Westerners getting here but none of them went around referring to the land being owned by a Queen. They have always described the earth as a living organism...a living, breathing organism that allows humans to live on its surface and enjoy what it has to offer if we do not ignore its intricate set of natural rules.

When the French and British came to Canada, they both brought with them Chrstitianity, diseases, and concepts as to owning land completely foreign to the existing cultural norms as to sharing the land and being guests on it. We Westerners do not see ourselves as guests on a living element. We see ourselves as conquerors who own and control the earth.

All our concepts are based on might and power and might and power coming from the accumulation of material and by being able to exploit the means of producing that material.

Aboriginal concepts as to economic transaction differ not simply because they were hunters or farmers but because of their concepts as to material goods.

Aboriginal cultures if one must generalize have one clear and different approach from that which we int he Western world accept as a given and that is that value is defined from what we control in terms of material goods. Our whole economy is based on that.

Todays aboriginal nations have had to engage in our form of economy because we give them no other choice. So you want to ridicule aboriginal nations and type-cast them as being criminals for engaging

in illegal tobacco sales or getting involved in casinoes then look twice at what other options we have aboriginals after we broke our treaties with them and superimposed our laws over their laws and customs.

We gave them no other way to eat.Our history is replete with engaging in activities that have made it impossible for them to co-exist and whether it is something as simple as fishing, hunting, snow-mobiles,

spreading diseases, forcefully kidnapping their children and placing them in Christian institutions and imposing Christian religion on them, we have failed. We have failed because quite simply we do not understand that you can not do away with aboriginals by simply shooting them or caging them in invisible cages called reservations.

And no don't try for one second suggest aboriginals have refused to assimilate or make compromises. Our Canadian history is full of vivid examples of how aboriginal nations were and have been more then willing to make compromises and learn from us and borrow some of our concepts...while we on the other hand have done the same. Do not mistake refusing to erase one's culture with refusing to assimilate.

Aboriginal people have as much a right to continue with their traditions as any of you do with your Christian churches and schools.

I will summarize by stating it this simply. You find a mathematical formula that compensates native rights for a proper percentage of any profit derived from the exploitation of the earth in Canada. You also engage in this exploitation respecting the environmental rules of nature and in a way that does not permanently damage the earth and poison and kill people from toxic side effects.

It is possible to engage in ethical, fair, environmentally safe business practices that are safe and fair to us all. This is not utopia I am talking about. I am talking about carefully planned and organized development that is as a result of community interests and not simply greed being represented as the paramount interest.

There have been examples of this already and if we are to properly develop the North and have a future not just in Canada but globally we are going to have to work in this direction.

The alternative is continued war and toxification of the planet and excuse me but I do not feel like gambling, having a smoke, or shitting on someone's belief system today. All I want is a nice peaceful walk and to watch

an osprey catch a fish or see a moose swim across a lake after having sex with Angela Jolie. I do not ask for much.

You need to re-read all of Tsi's posts.

Try and put the foolish statements at the end of long winded posts and maybe people will bother to read more than the first few lines.

[Riverwind]

Nothing in what I read Tsi in this dialogue suggested he felt he was superior to anyone or was making anti-white comments until I saw the anti-aboriginal sentiments come out in words.

Rue, you represent a segment of our society that has forgotten that it is possible for non-white people to be racist. Almost everything that Tsi has said is racist claptrap that would make David Duke proud if you substituted word 'white' everywhere Tsi uses 'Mohawk'. I suspect you do not see this in his words because your prejudices are so deeply ingrained that you don't realize that you are interpreting words differently depending on the race of the speaker. What others recognize as clearly racist statements you see them as 'a native standing up for himself'.

People often use a similar double standard when judging men and women: For example, a man and women say the same thing but the man will be called assertive but the woman is called pushy. Such double standards are unfair to woman. Similarly, your double standards when it comes to natives and racism are unfair to non-natives.

[yam]

[

Try and put the foolish statements at the end of long winded posts and maybe people will bother to read more than the first few lines.

Now this is precisely why you cannot come to grips with oral history. You cannot even read beyond a sentence. Mentally challenged is the correct PC term for what you as a society breed and hold dear. However, what is more alarming is that this same 'brand' of 'folk' run the legal and penal system that is expected to be the ultimate voice of wisdom

___________________________________________________________

The et al's

Lets be honest here even though the truth is something many would not like to hear out of a sense of false pride.

Tsi is knowledgable concerning all native issues.

He is also creative and funny.

Tsi also shares if you bothered to listen and has the patience of a saint - no kidding!!

Is he a supremicist? No he is not.

Is he proud of his culture as a Mohawk? YES he is.

The amazing thing is that none of you have ever checked out WHY. Surely you would have thought he defies all the stereotypes of 'natives' that you like to believe?

perhaps thats the problem - for you

He has got every reason to be proud. The kids are brought up to think and be creative simultaneously. That is, even though canadian society demands kids learn to be a parrot and worse. The way the mohawk structure is organised is highly accountable to ALL those living in it. That is not to say that it is perfect. So in knowing about the pitfalls of corruption etc that every society suffers in the world the Mohawk culture does its best to watch out for it.

I think you would be amazed if he told you HOW. But you more than likely wont even bother to hear him out. A pity really because you might just get a glimmer into the reason why the government seeks NOT to let them have their land. It is a whole different ball game at issue here.

I think you are muddling what is pride (since many non natives dont have it unless its false pride) with supremicist. in speaking for the Mohawk nation Tsi is outrightly proud - yes. Whats wrong with that? You and I are brought up to have false modesty as pride. . . .at most. Its ridiculous. At least he's honest about himself

But in the end canadians will never know this due to their suffering from their sad societal malady. A total and complete lack of concerntration. That is why the government finds them an easy pushover - Exactly the same as Bush and Blair does with their societies.

[Rue]

I chose to sit on the side-lines and read most of the posts on the property rights debate between the native nations and the Ontario government because I truly believe good legal arguements can be made from both sides of the table and it will take creative minds to find a peaceful and fair way to juggle and find mutually acceptable methods to enable both sets of rights to be recognized and properly treated.

I only injected myself into the debates when I noticed the topic turned from property rights to ridiculing aborignals as people and because of their culture.

Nothing in what I read Tsi in this dialogue suggested he felt he was superior to anyone or was making anti-white comments until I saw the anti-aboriginal sentiments come out in words.

I also think someone who uses the post name squaw shagger and discusses all women the way he does aboriginals, with contempt and hatred, is someone whose insecurity and bigotry is transparent.

I am disgusted we can not talk to native people without deliberately insulting their beliefs.

The issue was property rights and Tsi's comments about shape shifting were allegories that obviously went over the heads of some of you.

Now I would like to bring this back to where it started because this is one non native who will not sit by quietly and watch anyone insulted because of their heritage and I slung some back but I am the first to admit its pointless.

Here is the cold hard reality of the situation. Native peoples have very strong, coherent, legal rights that are going to be inunciated in the court system. These rights will not simply go away because they are inconvenient to some business interests of some developers.

The federal and provincial governments are not stupid. They know they may lose on many of these land claim arguements and so in the last twenty years have been desperately trying to avoid litigation through out of court settlements.

To some of you it may look like the current provincial government is gutless. Well of course they are. That same gutless comes from internal legal opinions advising them its a no win situation for them if they push these land right issues.

If you bother to actually read or listen to what native representatives have actually stated in regards to land negotiations, you would also know that what many of you think is intransigence or being entrenched in a particular position is in fact negotiation and typical and to be expected in such negotiations.

I will not accept the notion that our laws and courts can not find solutions to these property right issues.

I will not accept the train of thought that ridicules native people for trying to enforce historic legal rights.

I do understand the majority of Canadians will choose to live segregated from native peoples and never come to understand their true beliefs and so will continue to engage in the kind of comments that I have seen on some of these posts.

I can not and will not accept the fact that non natives are doomed to having to war with natives over this earth.

I can not and will not because I lived in Israel and I have seen people die over land where they have competing legal rights and I will never accept war and terror and intolerance as solutions.

Now if we want to get into a discussion as to the historic origins of the treaties and legal rights natives are referring to when advocating on their behalf when it comes to property rights, let us do so without insulting them as people.

I would also suggest that if a non native also genuinely learn native practices, all they have to do is ask but you will never begin to understand it if you first approach it with a closed mind and believe it is stupid or does not make sense because it is different then the way you conceptualize things.

And not that it matters, but if any of you are interested, you can also learn how certain aboriginal customs as to solving conflicts are being incorporated into our legal systems just as their spiritual practices are

being incorporated into our medical practices.

People with far more Western education and degrees then most of us on these posts are not afraid to learn from aboriginals and ask them for guidance.

What I am clearly saying is before this is over, we non natives will incorporate aboriginal believes and customs into our laws and other social systems and it will make us better for it.

I also truly believe some of us, not all of us, who are not native, will be able to establish with native peoples that we want to live in peace and share and not hurt or ridicule anyone.

That may sound ridiculously bleeding heart or "pussy" talk to some of you posters but that is what this debate comes down to-property rights are symbols not tangible objects, they are simply symbols or manifestations of how we choose to live with each other on this planet.

Think about it. Our entire legal system as to owning property is simply symbolic. We rent land from the Queen (crown) because she retains full rights to it. We pretend we own the land but in fact we lease it from Queen Liz. Then we say we own it because we go to an office and get a piece of paper that says we do after we go to a bank and get a loan to purchase it. So we in fact claim we own the land but in fact the bank owns it until we pay the bank back. Then say we clear the mortgage...then what..well we have to sell it or die. So the reality is we own butkus. Our whole legal system merely tries to have us share parcels of land in an orderly fashion until we die but no one really owns anything. Its simply fiction to stop us from killing each other over seeing who can control what piece of land.

Aboriginal people do not put down our culture or our legal system our our legal practices because they challenge them. They have a right to. This same Queen Liz's great great great grandparents made treaties with them as to sharing the land. Some of you really do need to at least go back to the Magna Carta act and understand how it like so many other treaties is related directly to aboriginal claims today to exemption to certain laws or rights that would supercede other rights.

Aboriginals did not go around claiming they owned anything. They may have had their own problems with each other prior to we Westerners getting here but none of them went around referring to the land being owned by a Queen. They have always described the earth as a living organism...a living, breathing organism that allows humans to live on its surface and enjoy what it has to offer if we do not ignore its intricate set of natural rules.

When the French and British came to Canada, they both brought with them Chrstitianity, diseases, and concepts as to owning land completely foreign to the existing cultural norms as to sharing the land and being guests on it. We Westerners do not see ourselves as guests on a living element. We see ourselves as conquerors who own and control the earth.

All our concepts are based on might and power and might and power coming from the accumulation of material and by being able to exploit the means of producing that material.

Aboriginal concepts as to economic transaction differ not simply because they were hunters or farmers but because of their concepts as to material goods.

Aboriginal cultures if one must generalize have one clear and different approach from that which we int he Western world accept as a given and that is that value is defined from what we control in terms of material goods. Our whole economy is based on that.

Todays aboriginal nations have had to engage in our form of economy because we give them no other choice. So you want to ridicule aboriginal nations and type-cast them as being criminals for engaging

in illegal tobacco sales or getting involved in casinoes then look twice at what other options we have aboriginals after we broke our treaties with them and superimposed our laws over their laws and customs.

We gave them no other way to eat.Our history is replete with engaging in activities that have made it impossible for them to co-exist and whether it is something as simple as fishing, hunting, snow-mobiles,

spreading diseases, forcefully kidnapping their children and placing them in Christian institutions and imposing Christian religion on them, we have failed. We have failed because quite simply we do not understand that you can not do away with aboriginals by simply shooting them or caging them in invisible cages called reservations.

And no don't try for one second suggest aboriginals have refused to assimilate or make compromises. Our Canadian history is full of vivid examples of how aboriginal nations were and have been more then willing to make compromises and learn from us and borrow some of our concepts...while we on the other hand have done the same. Do not mistake refusing to erase one's culture with refusing to assimilate.

Aboriginal people have as much a right to continue with their traditions as any of you do with your Christian churches and schools.

I will summarize by stating it this simply. You find a mathematical formula that compensates native rights for a proper percentage of any profit derived from the exploitation of the earth in Canada. You also engage in this exploitation respecting the environmental rules of nature and in a way that does not permanently damage the earth and poison and kill people from toxic side effects.

It is possible to engage in ethical, fair, environmentally safe business practices that are safe and fair to us all. This is not utopia I am talking about. I am talking about carefully planned and organized development that is as a result of community interests and not simply greed being represented as the paramount interest.

There have been examples of this already and if we are to properly develop the North and have a future not just in Canada but globally we are going to have to work in this direction.

The alternative is continued war and toxification of the planet and excuse me but I do not feel like gambling, having a smoke, or shitting on someone's belief system today. All I want is a nice peaceful walk and to watch

an osprey catch a fish or see a moose swim across a lake after having sex with Angela Jolie. I do not ask for much.

You need to re-read all of Tsi's posts.

Try and put the foolish statements at the end of long winded posts and maybe people will bother to read more than the first few lines.

I have read his posts and I have read yours and I stand by my comments in their entirety..and to put it in language you can understand-try hit a wolf with a stick, it will circle back and bite your ass...best to keep your distance from it. A wolf is not some dog you can tame and the sonner you learn that, the sonner you can learn to live in co-existence with it.

[Greg]

Sorry everyone, but this thread has become a waste of time and bandwidth.

I will remind all members who take pleasure in feeding trolls. If you continue you might find yourself taking a "vacation" from these forums. Feeding trolls is as disruptive as the actual trolls themselves.