U.S. support for Israel

[Figleaf]

I'

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[America1]

I'm curious ... we all know that Israel receives substantial support from the United States, but what (other than worldwide hostility) does the US get out of supporting Israel?

What is the motivation for putting American money (and increasingly blood) on the line to sustain the illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land? Does this make sense?

You do realize that Israel gave up the west bank and the entire area it had in Lebanon only to be attacked over and over and over again.

Our motivation isn’t “what we get out of supporting Israel”. It is that we are loyal to our friends and to those who are attacked by terrorist gangs (unlike most of Europe and unfortunately liberal Canadians).

[GostHacked]

I'm curious ... we all know that Israel receives substantial support from the United States, but what (other than worldwide hostility) does the US get out of supporting Israel?

What is the motivation for putting American money (and increasingly blood) on the line to sustain the illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land? Does this make sense?

You do realize that Israel gave up the west bank and the entire are it had in Lebanon only to be attacked over and over and over again.

Our motivation isn’t “what we get out of supporting Israel”. It is that we are loyal to our friends and to those who are attacked by terrorist gangs (unlike most of Europe and unfortunately liberal Canadians).

You mean they gave up what they illegaly occupied in the first place right??

[America1]

I'm curious ... we all know that Israel receives substantial support from the United States, but what (other than worldwide hostility) does the US get out of supporting Israel?

What is the motivation for putting American money (and increasingly blood) on the line to sustain the illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land? Does this make sense?

You do realize that Israel gave up the west bank and the entire are it had in Lebanon only to be attacked over and over and over again.

Our motivation isn’t “what we get out of supporting Israel”. It is that we are loyal to our friends and to those who are attacked by terrorist gangs (unlike most of Europe and unfortunately liberal Canadians).

You mean they gave up what they illegaly occupied in the first place right??

How it was "illegally" occupied?

But regardless of your logic, they gave it up and still have been attacked over and over again since then.

[Black Dog]

Israel gave up the West Bank? I'm sure that's news to all the Israelis still there, as well as the Palestinians who contest their prescence.

A link.

A map.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Black Dog]

Also: Israel has not given up the "entire area it had in Lebanon".

Sheeba Farms dispute.

[Rue]

I'm curious ... we all know that Israel receives substantial support from the United States, but what (other than worldwide hostility) does the US get out of supporting Israel?

What is the motivation for putting American money (and increasingly blood) on the line to sustain the illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land? Does this make sense?

There is no illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land, so making that statement reflects your total and complete ignorance as to international law and the fact that Israel is a perfectly legal state and Palestine is not a state, has never been a state, and can not become a state because those people who want it to become a a state, can not turn it into a state, because within their midst a minority of people who are violent terrorists are concerned with only one thing, ending the existence of Israel.

This is not a matter of innocent freedom fighters wanting a peaceful solution. This is a matter of people who have no respect for individual and human rights, who detest all Jews and anyone non Muslim and who do not believe in any of the concepts of lifestyle you take for granted and assume everybody else wants.

What is the motivation? Well either you are completely stupid and you deserve a stupid answer such as-its because Zionists control George Bush and have brain-washed him, or if your simplistic brain can handle this answer it is because the United States and other countries (yah there are some) believe Israel has the right to exist. And using your simplistic questioning think about it. No there is no oil. No the U.S. get's nothing out of it but hear-ache. So why do it? Ooh could it be Americans actually have ideals?

No can't be. Its because the US needs Israel to destabalize the Middle East so it can sell weapons to Arabs. Yah they are evil those Americans. Also the Zionists own all the banks and Hollywood.

You know what Fig your childish simplistic questions are tiresome.

[Rue]

Also: Israel has not given up the "entire area it had in Lebanon".

Sheeba Farms dispute.

O.k. Middle East expert, you want to open that up then be intellectually honest about it. The Shebba farms area is 14 kilometres (8.7 miles) of land, 2.5 kilos or 1.6 miles wide. It is in fact a tiny parcel of land situated on a piece of land that was NEVER properly or clearly demarcated on maps. So technically, and of course you Black Dog selectively choose to ignore this, the land has never been defined as belonging to anyone and to this day BOTH Syria and Lebanon dispute who has sovereignty of it. In 1967 Israel took it over because it was being used as a site to launch terrorist attacks. Its right on the Israeli border.

It was not clearly marked because the French who operated Syria and Lebanon in their infinite wisdom were not surehow to define it.

Now of course Israel is evil and they just took it for no reason because they are greedy Jews right Black Dog? Evil bad Jews that just want everything.

Or you can pause and consider this. Hassan Ezzedin a Hezbollah spokesman said it all when he said in response to being asked would Hezbollah live peacefully with Israel if Israel pulled out of this region-

and I quote directly;

" If they go(sic) from Shebba we will not stop fighting them our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine. Jews (note he did not say Israelis) can go back to Germany where they came from".

So Israel continues to occupy this tiny slice of land right on their border because if they give it back it will mean Hezbollah can attack within 5 minutes of its villages.

So Balck Dog unless you know something Israel does not, they could give a flying f...ck what you think and will not give it back and if you were in their position neither would you.

[Figleaf]

l

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[jdobbin]

There is no illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land, ...

What there isn't is any point in talking with someone who can make such ridiculous assertions and hope to be taken seriously.

It isn't Israel's land. They've tried to to populate it to make it their land but that has proven to be an unsuccessful formula.

Don't encourage the abusive language from other people here. Just move on because ultimately, you are not convincing them.

[geoffrey]

There is a massive Jewish population in the states. You get elected in a few states because of your defense of Israel. It's an essiential aspect of any political platform. That's what the Americans have in it.

[America1]

There is a massive Jewish population in the states. You get elected in a few states because of your defense of Israel. It's an essiential aspect of any political platform. That's what the Americans have in it.

Yeah, what state is that? Please be specific.

[America1]

Israel gave up the West Bank? I'm sure that's news to all the Israelis still there, as well as the Palestinians who contest their prescence.

A link.

A map.

"Israel evacuated the last settlers and protesters from the West Bank "

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/23/...lout/index.html

[America1]

You are mistaken. Israel has not pulled out of the West Bank, and indeed, has given strong indications that it intends to annex portions of it. This continuing occupation is the elephant in the room of any discussion of why Israel continues to be a target of agression.

In my opinion Israel could have reached a just peace with the Palestinian Authority, if it had been willing to return to its rightful borders.

Tell me -- if a gang takes over your neighbor's house, and your neighbor resorts to violence to evict them, who do you side with?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/23/...lout/index.html

Israel pulled out of the West bank in 2005. So, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

I don't rally understand your "Gang takes over my neighbors house" example b/c you must remember that Israel took the land in a war started by the arabs surounding them. So I guess my question is "Who is the "gang" in your example?

[jdobbin]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/23/...lout/index.html

Israel pulled out of the West bank in 2005. So, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

That was just the first phase of the withdrawal. Read that article more carefully.

Even today some of of the people being evacuated from northern Israel are leaving for the "relative" security of the West Bank.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Black Dog]

"Israel evacuated the last settlers and protesters from the West Bank ".

Why not post the entire sentence?

Israel evacuated the last settlers and protesters from the West Bank settlement of Homesh on Tuesday, the military said, completing its historic withdrawal of civilians from 25 settlements in Gaza and the West Bank.

And then read the rest:

About 120 Jewish settlements remain in the West Bank after the evacuations, according to the Israel-based Web site peacenow.org.il.

There's more than 230,000 living in West Bank settlements (versus the 6,900 who resided in Gaza). Part of the unilateral withdrawl from Gaza included the dismantling of a couple of West Bank settlements, but construction of new settlements there continues today.

O.k. Middle East expert, you want to open that up then be intellectually honest about it. The Shebba farms area is 14 kilometres (8.7 miles) of land, 2.5 kilos or 1.6 miles wide. It is in fact a tiny parcel of land situated on a piece of land that was NEVER properly or clearly demarcated on maps. So technically, and of course you Black Dog selectively choose to ignore this, the land has never been defined as belonging to anyone and to this day BOTH Syria and Lebanon dispute who has sovereignty of it. In 1967 Israel took it over because it was being used as a site to launch terrorist attacks. Its right on the Israeli border.

It's disputed territory, occupied by Israel. Lebanon claims it, Israel is occupying it and has refused to resolve it. Syria has acknowleged Lebanon's claim to the land. And Hezbollah uses the Israeli presence there to claim is still engaging in resistance, and in turn, justify being armed. (If there's no land being occupied, there's not much to resist.) Even the Bush-backed Prime Minister of Lebanon, Fouad Siniora, has said a resolution to the Sheeba Frams dispute is essential for peace.

Now of course Israel is evil and they just took it for no reason because they are greedy Jews right Black Dog? Evil bad Jews that just want everything.

Reported to moderator.

So Israel continues to occupy this tiny slice of land right on their border because if they give it back it will mean Hezbollah can attack within 5 minutes of its villages.

Um...you realize that if Israel stays there, Hizbullah will continue to attack and will continue to claim legitimacy for those attacks. If Israel chose to negotiate a settlement, it would undermine Hizbullah's claim that it is fighting for Lebanon.

[America1]

Reported to moderator.

hahaahahahahaha - you are the biggest WUSSY on this board!!!!

[Black Dog]

Reported to moderator.

hahaahahahahaha - you are the WUSSI on the board!!!!

Forum rules and guidelines

INSULTS

Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them.

[America1]

Reported to moderator.

hahaahahahahaha - you are the WUSSI on the board!!!!

Forum rules and guidelines

INSULTS

Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them.

Hahah – you are pretty thick skinned.

You throw out insults against America, Americans and especially our military constantly. But, when I call you a baby for reporting someone you cry like a 6 yr old girl who skinned her knee.

That speaks volume about your character.

[Black Dog]

<deleted for troll feeding>

[Greg]

Hahah – you are pretty thick skinned.

You throw out insults against America, Americans and especially our military constantly. But, when I call you a baby for reporting someone you cry like a 6 yr old girl who skinned her knee.

That speaks volume about your character.

Actually no, this post speaks volumes of your lack of character - or at least your ignorance of the rules of this forum. I warned you not to continue with the insults, perhaps a 30 day suspension will help you mull over your options.

[Rue]

I must admit I got heated myself in these exchanges as I find some posters not being honest and deliberately making provocative statements.

That said, Black Dog continues to spell out a myth that the West Bank is illegally occupied. Again he ignores history and fact. The fact is the West Bank was never defined as belonging to what is today Jordan. In 1948 Jordan seized it by war. So it was de facto established as Jordan's and not Palestine's. So to say the West Bank is Palestine is complete and utter fiction and the kind of fiction promulgated by people who deliberately choose to look at the history of the borders in the Middle East without looking at their proper historic origins, then colonial origins and how international law defines them.

The fact is the West Bank belongs to no one at the moment and like the Gaza Strip is proposed as the place Palestine will be unless of course you are with Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, Syria, Black Dog, Fig Leaf, etc., and believe Israel as a nation should not exist at all and we should simply ship all the Jewish Israeli's to Mel Gibson's house and let the Muslims take it all and turn it into a fundamerntalist Muslim state like Iran and they can wipe out thje Druze and Christians in Israel and then we can let the Sunnis and Shiites duke it out.

[Rue]

"Israel evacuated the last settlers and protesters from the West Bank ".

Why not post the entire sentence?

Israel evacuated the last settlers and protesters from the West Bank settlement of Homesh on Tuesday, the military said, completing its historic withdrawal of civilians from 25 settlements in Gaza and the West Bank.

And then read the rest:

About 120 Jewish settlements remain in the West Bank after the evacuations, according to the Israel-based Web site peacenow.org.il.

There's more than 230,000 living in West Bank settlements (versus the 6,900 who resided in Gaza). Part of the unilateral withdrawl from Gaza included the dismantling of a couple of West Bank settlements, but construction of new settlements there continues today.

O.k. Middle East expert, you want to open that up then be intellectually honest about it. The Shebba farms area is 14 kilometres (8.7 miles) of land, 2.5 kilos or 1.6 miles wide. It is in fact a tiny parcel of land situated on a piece of land that was NEVER properly or clearly demarcated on maps. So technically, and of course you Black Dog selectively choose to ignore this, the land has never been defined as belonging to anyone and to this day BOTH Syria and Lebanon dispute who has sovereignty of it. In 1967 Israel took it over because it was being used as a site to launch terrorist attacks. Its right on the Israeli border.

It's disputed territory, occupied by Israel. Lebanon claims it, Israel is occupying it and has refused to resolve it. Syria has acknowleged Lebanon's claim to the land. And Hezbollah uses the Israeli presence there to claim is still engaging in resistance, and in turn, justify being armed. (If there's no land being occupied, there's not much to resist.) Even the Bush-backed Prime Minister of Lebanon, Fouad Siniora, has said a resolution to the Sheeba Frams dispute is essential for peace.

Now of course Israel is evil and they just took it for no reason because they are greedy Jews right Black Dog? Evil bad Jews that just want everything.

Reported to moderator.

So Israel continues to occupy this tiny slice of land right on their border because if they give it back it will mean Hezbollah can attack within 5 minutes of its villages.

Um...you realize that if Israel stays there, Hizbullah will continue to attack and will continue to claim legitimacy for those attacks. If Israel chose to negotiate a settlement, it would undermine Hizbullah's claim that it is fighting for Lebanon.

Black Dog are you being deliberately provocative or are you that oblivious to what Hezbollah is. Hezbollah is not a political movement you negotiate with. Read their charter. Their charter states they intend to kill every Jew they can get their hands on. This is not a group that is freeing Lebanon and it never was. It has used the pretense of being liberators of Lebanon and that worked when Israel was in Lebanon but the fact is Israel has not been in Lebanon for years and is only there now trying to stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel.

This is not about defending Lebanon as much as you would like to pretend it is-this is about Hezbollah dedicated to destroying Israel. A group whose charter is to kill Jews world wide and wipe out Israel is not a group interested in negotiating. Once and for all Black Dog either learn who Hezbollah is, what they stand for and how they operate and stop making such naive statements such as Israel should negotiate with them. You do not negotiate with terrorists and you certainly do not negotiate with terrorists that say under no circumstance will they recognize your right to exist.

In your pretend world, Hezbollah are people who will sit and discuss and settle things. First of all they don't settle and discuss things, secondly by law, they have no legal status to represent or negotiate with a sovereign state.

Now as for you reporting me to the moderator I wish I could report you to someone and hold you accountable for your comments.

For the rest of the posters who actually care, Black Dog's statement that Israel has refused to negotiate or give back land including the disputed Shebba Farms region is patently false. Anyone who bothers to read will understand Israel would give it back in a second if it remained demilitarized. The UN has been unable to keep Lebanon free of Hezbollah and its weapons and that is the sole reason Israel is now involved in a defensive response and that is what it is as much as Black Dog or others try to isolate it and say it is an over-reaction to one single kidnapping. It is not. It is a response to a continuous non stop series of terrorist attacks.

As well what Black Dog has continued to remain silent on to the point of being intellectually dishonest in my opinion, is in continuing to suggest Israel should negotiate with Hezbollah when Hezbollah is asking that Israel release someone who bashed a 4 year old child's head in with a rock and then took his bran matter and mushed it in his father's face before torturing and defiling the father. These civilians killed were Israelis and maybe in Black Dog's one sided world Israelis have no rights so we should just conveniently forget their right to live in peace but Israelis can't and yes I will continue each adn every time Black Dog and a few others make outrageous one sided statements to continue challenging them. My remarks made above which Black Dog reported to the moderator were said by a Jewish person frustrated and insulted that Black Dog deliberately ignores two sides of the debate and sticks to but one side to the point where even I can't read his posts and really believe he believes in some of what he is saying anymore. I am not seeing any substance to back up what Black Dog is saying only emotional generalizations. And so I lost it a bit and for that I apologize.