Supreme Court to Decide Metis Claim

[Riverwind]

However, the grandchildren and subsequent generations have no right to compensation.

How ridiculously arbitrary!

This is a prinicipal that is well established in our legal system. Personally, I think it is rediculous to even discuss compensation for wrongs that happened generations ago. Should every non-black person in the US today pay compensation to every black person because of slavery? Some people try to argue that they should, however, most agree that it is rediculous to even consider such a thing.

[WillyNilly]

I think a major issue is were these treaties signed by Canada or by Britian? Were they put in place before Canada became independent of Britian? As todays Aboriginal people are fond of saying, Canadians can just say "I didnt sign those treaties".

The Aboriginal people claim they didnt sell the land, so Canadians can claim they didnt sign the treaties giving Aboriginal people certain rights.

Most of the treaties are ridiculous, some were signed when there were 400 people living in the Vancouver area.

They have no more value than other rescinded laws, such as the ones saying women couldnt own property and werent allowed to vote.

Non-aboriginal people BOUGHT the land, settled it, developed it. I dont see how anyone can rewrite or abolish the last hundred or more years of history. No matter what the Supreme Court decides, and they arent stupid, the people who own land in Canada wont go down without a fight.

I also saw a recent article on the internet titled "Canada's Continuing Genocide of Aboriginals". What is the justification for something like that?

[jdobbin]

I think a major issue is were these treaties signed by Canada or by Britian? Were they put in place before Canada became independent of Britian? As todays Aboriginal people are fond of saying, Canadians can just say "I didnt sign those treaties".

I don't know if that argument could be made about the Metis. Canada was a country and it signed the agreements with the Metis, at least according to what everyone has gathered. I can't speak for the Aboriginal treaties. Some were signed by Britain on behalf of Canada, others by Canada as it gew as a nation.

As the Supreme Court has said time and time again, Canada is as bound by the British North American Act as it is bound to our repatiated constitution and Charter of Rights. It will be the law that decides this.

[saga]

If you agree that they have a right to money why deny them a right to the land? why the difference?

The land has already been transferred to third parties who have increased the value of the land by developing it. This 'additional value' belongs to the people who created it and the Metis groups have no claim on it.

If they want land they can buy it on the open market from a willing seller with whatever monetary compensation that they get. The gov't might choose to offer some of its land holdings in lieu of cash, however, the terms of ownership must not discriminate against non-aboriginal land owners. In other words, if they hold the land under fee simple title then there is no racism and the compensation can be considered reasonable (depending on the amount of land involved).

Any attempt to create an 'aboriginal title' concept which gives them more rights than other land owners is racist and, depending on the details, is no different than aparthied.

Aboriginal title is not being created ...it already exists in the constitution

Now there you go again, Riverwind, repeating ad nauseam all that party line crap about apartheid and racism to hook those easily hoodwinked ...... are you getting paid by the party for this...

This is an insult to people who have truly suffered under imposed apartheid systems.

Many Indigenous people already live apart ... in their communities and on their lands ... by choice ... It is not apartheid if it is by choice ... kinda makes you think of all the old folks in seniors developments ... is that apartheid ... omigod! some of the old brown people prefer to be together! ... they can not do that!! that is apartheid!! oh please ... Racially based apartheid is imposed on people ... it is not a choice. You are intentionally misleading people. Tell the party hacks that this propoganda line is not working because it is insulting peoples intelligence. Maybe now I understand why this board was set up!

When Indigenous people get their land back ... they will not be separate at all because there will be existing towns, etc. They can live anywhere in their territory. You make it sound like the government is making their decisions for them ... ridiculous. The government should be busy enough with its own decisions ... how to pay for the land and compensation. Their land will be their sovereign territory as per the Royal Proclamation 1763, now part of the Constitution. Canada is finally getting back to lawful status with Indigenous people. Canada has been on the lam from this for a loooong time.

Riverwind makes it sound dastardly evil! That must be her job for the party, cos she sure sings the governments tune ... woe are we...woe are we ... they want our money ...that is apartheid ... no ... that is race based benefits because I am not getting any!

Apartheid ... now that is when they tell us they want to live on their land ... ya ... that is right ... that is apartheid when they get to live wherever they want!

ya right!

Funny how the worm turns when the shoe is on the other foot! Funny how Duncan Campbells infamous speech about the ...final solution... to the Indian problem echoes in the flavour of your words today. Those who have not assimilated by now are not interested.

Indigenous people like the Haudenosaunee Six Nations were here for thousands of years. We are a blip in their history ... We were the allies who stole them blind and tortured their children for a hundred years. Now they are reclaiming their land and their sovereignty, and good on them! Equity, as Tsi says, is not the same as equality. Equity can be different things according to need, for equity of results! (equal input does not often result in equity) In this case, sovereignty in their own lands is the the original agreement (also now part of the Constitution): The Two Row Wampum http://hometown.aol.com/miketben/miketben.htm

They are not asking for special status as Canadian citizens ... they are resuming their legal sovereignty.

Riverwind ... did you manage to get that information about how much corporate tax is paid in Canada annually ... We need that information to estimate what the bottom line might be for taxpayers...and do not forget all the surpluses.

And do not forget that they made this country!!! Without the Haudenosaunee Iroquois confederacy in the war of 1812, we would not be Canada now.

[saga]

Frankly, if all of these claims are simply a matter of inheritance then the gov't has a simple solution: impose a 100% inheritance tax on lands covered under a treaty. The problem would be resolved in a generation and aboriginals could no longer claim that they have an 'inhieritance' that they are entitled to.

You are obfuscating again, R ... the words are ... inherent rights ... not inheritance ... birthright, not death tax

[saga]

I think a major issue is were these treaties signed by Canada or by Britian? Were they put in place before Canada became independent of Britian? As todays Aboriginal people are fond of saying, Canadians can just say "I didnt sign those treaties".

The Aboriginal people claim they didnt sell the land, so Canadians can claim they didnt sign the treaties

giving Aboriginal people certain rights.

...

*Canadians did sign the land surrenders but they did a sloppy job of writing them so most are invalid so the

land is still theirs and they want it back now. Canada also incorporated the treaties and Proclamations into the constitution.

...

Most of the treaties are ridiculous, some were signed when there were 400 people living in the Vancouver area.

They have no more value than other rescinded laws, such as the ones saying women couldnt own property and werent allowed to vote.

...

*They were never rescinded.

Non-aboriginal people BOUGHT the land, settled it, developed it. I dont see how anyone can rewrite or abolish the

last hundred or more years of history. No matter what the Supreme Court decides, and they arent stupid, the people who own land in Canada wont go down without a fight.

...

*It is all in the governments lap.

I also saw a recent article on the internet titled "Canada's Continuing Genocide of Aboriginals". What is the justification for something like that?

...

http://www.danielnpaul.com/Col/1999/All-Co...onCultures.html

*Try this for starters. There is a new book coming out and you will be hearing much more about genocide ... and it is a lot worse than this starter...

...

[Riverwind]

You are obfuscating again, R ... the words are ... inherent rights ... not inheritance ... birthright, not death tax

People keep repeating this same old tired argument in the hope of that endless repetition will make it true.

Let me state this clearly: an egalitarian democracy society is based on the principal that all people have exactly the same rights no matter who they are are or who their parents were. Any argument that certain groups of people have 'inherent rights' that others cannot have is a racist argument that violates the first principal of an egalitarian society.

In a capitalist society, we do expect that some people will be wealthy than others because that is how the system works. We also accept that some people will inherit money and/or property that will give them an advantage over others who were not born into a rich family. However, the gov't also has a right to tax people with inherited money and use that to pay for services delivered to the less fortunate. Balancing the need to allow the capitalist system work vs. the need to share the wealth is a complicated thing to do. However, no person with inherited assets is entitled to keep all of those assets for all time.

I can accept that certain groups of people have inheritances that their ancestors were cheated out of. In these cases some sort of compensation may be justified. However, under no conditions is it acceptable to insist that aboriginals have inherited rights - rights that others don't have cannot be inherited.

I realize that our current constitution does include provisions that provide for unspecified 'rights' for aboriginal people. However, the constitution and the courts have been vague about what these statements mean in practice. For that reason, the gov't must be diligent and ensure these 'rights' are defined as narrowly as possible. The gov't must also be prepared to change the constitution if the courts hand down ruling that are too onerous for non-natives Canadians.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon! Riverwind

....an egalitarian democracy society is based on the principal that all people....blah blah blah

In a capitalist society, we do expect that some people....blah blah blah

There's your problem! Canada is neither an egalitarian democracy, nor a capitalist society. It is a aristrocracy and a corportist society! You may want to delude yourself otherwise, but that is the fact and truth. Your soceity is full of inequity and inequality and the guys on the top reap their greedy profits on that backs of the workers. The investors earn more return than owners, and communities have no say in the Walmart mcjobs they throw at them.

Your argument is delusional and your continuous atttempts to defend the insanity under which your society and government operates is equally insane.

O:nen

[Riverwind]

There's your problem! Canada is neither an egalitarian democracy, nor a capitalist society. It is a aristocracy and a corporatist society!

So your solution is to create a class of aboriginal aristocrats are turn the rest of people into landless serfs. Sorry, that is no solution and I am sure the overwhelming majority of Canadians will agree.

Your argument is delusional and your continuous attempts to defend the insanity under which your society and government operates is equally insane.

I am not the one claiming I have rights because God gave them to me. The only rights that aboriginals have are the rights that the majority in the country _chooses_ to give them. Furthermore, the majority of people in this country can take away any of these rights if they so choose (the constitution _can_ be changed if necessary). That is the cold hard reality of the democratic system no matter what you want to believe.

I am not in favour of heavy handed approaches that would likely lead to violent confrontation, however, you must realize that aboriginals can only push so hard. If you want to get some of your traditional lands back then you have to make the case why it is in the best interest of the majority of citizens in the country to give you those lands back. So far your only argument has been: its ours and you can't stop us. Such rhetoric will only lead to confrontation since the majority of people in this country have rights too and they are not going silently let them taken away by a groups of aboriginals with a superiority complex and good lawyers.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Waht we do within our own government system - and this is no different than than the US - has nothing to do with you. You don't have a say, nor do Canadians get an opinion in the outcome. If we as Haudenosaunee want an aristocracy like Canada (althought we would have to be equally insane) that would be up to us. What part of "self-determination" don't you understand?

Haudenosaunee rights are defined under OUR consitution, The Great Law. Your consitution neither limits us, or prescribes for us. What it does do (and you obviously have no clue about your own laws) is that it tells you exactly that - that our rights are "off-limits" to Canadian law. That means that our rights and your rights are different and neither are defined by the other.

...the constitution _can_ be changed if necessary

What you think you know about your own law and constitution is a myth. Canadians are NOT self-determining. Your constitution cannot be changed by government. It requires the approval of the Crown because Canada is a subject of the Crown. And not likely youy could see the Crown willing to amend the constitution to wipe out the recognition of aboriginal rights, since it was at the Queens insistence and assertion that it be included. So good luck with that. Still it wouldn't matter to us because we operate under a different law, one based on participatory democracy and freedoms of individuality.

...you have to make the case why it is in the best interest of the majority of citizens in the country to give you those lands back.

The "majority of Canadians" don't have a say in what happens to any lands let alone OUR lands. Your corporation cannot own any lands and the Crown manages those lands on behalf of the treaties that have been made with various First Nations. YOUR interest in the lands isn't even a consideration or on the negotiating table. So fat chance that anyone of you could change the course your governmetn must go to resolve our complaints. Maybe you should spend some time studying your Charter and Constitution. YOU HAVE NO rights that can usurp our rights. That is a Charter gurantee. You could use violent confronatation to assert your non-rights but then again our Consitution provides that we could uncoil with such venemous reaction that Afghanistan would look like a CAP protest in comparison. Through our Constitution we will restore the Peace at any cost should peaceful means not prevail.

O:nen

[jdobbin]

This recent discusson doesn't address the Metis claim here. Since they are not classified as Native or European but as class by itself, they have some unique issues. Their land claims may cover both traditional Aboriginal and and land presently occupied by the majority of Manitobans.

If successful, could the land claim make Manitoba disappear from the map since 3/4 of the population resides in the territory?

[WillyNilly]

I am not interested in reading a fictional account of this alleged "genocide" occurring TODAY of Aboriginal people in Canada. Like I said I saw sites on the internet claiming GENOCICE of Canada's Aboriginal people occcurring TODAY. Petitions to Amensty International to stop the genocide.

You seem to not stop to think that many of us have ancestors that have been in Canada for hundreds of years and many have ancestors or relatives that are Aboriginal or part Aboriginal so the information comes from other sources, and not just from the Aboriginal people demanding to be given back about 120% of Canada.

It will never happen. As Riverwind and Kindred have said you are trying to create an apartheid society and you my friend, have NEVER lived in an apartheid society that favoured the Non-Aboriginal.

That is WHY Nelson Mandela refused to support the Canada Aboriginal claim of living in an Apartheid society or their claims of genocide.

There are bands in Canada that exist PEACEFULLY AND SUCCESSFULLY doing their OWN development, alongside Non-Aboriginal people.

However I guess, as the saying goes, "it takes all kinds". Those with a sense of entitlement that do nothing to advance themselves and those that do and do it well.

There are "dry" reserves, where no alcohol or drugs are allowed, there are very successful schools and colleges developed by Aboriginals, there are housing developments, industrial parks, businesses developed by Aboriginals.

And then there are "the others". Who do nothing to advance their bands and abuse alcohol and drugs and blame it on the "white person".

Genocide my --- If you have any desire to eradicate Racism and to discover the roots of Racism this is your answer. Non-Aboriginals are tired of this never ending pity party.

It has also been posted "What legacy are you giving your children with your constant brain washing that they are hated and don't have a chance to be successful because they are Aboriginal?" A legacy of hopelessness, which is one of the major factors in suicide among young Aboriginals that come from these bands, and these reserves.

[saga]

I am not interested in reading a fictional account of this alleged "genocide" occurring TODAY of Aboriginal people in Canada. Like I said I saw sites on the internet claiming GENOCICE of Canada's Aboriginal people occcurring TODAY. Petitions to Amensty International to stop the genocide.

UN Convention on Genocide, 1948...

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

-a- Killing members of the group;

-b- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

-c- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

-d- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

-e- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

-a- Genocide;

-b- Conspiracy to commit genocide;

-c- Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

-d- Attempt to commit genocide;

-e- Complicity in genocide.

... conditions ... calculated to bring about ... includes forcing them off their land ... such as by spraying deadly chemicals designed to kill all the vegetation...and animals ... and poison people ... at Grassy Narrows ... the Canadian government continues to ignore the health and safety of Indigenous people by imposing conditions on them that prevent them from living safely on their land, and by partnering with Canadian government Band Councils and corporations to steal the land without the consent of the people.

Genocide my --- If you have any desire to eradicate Racism and to discover the roots of Racism this is your answer. Non-Aboriginals are tired of this never ending pity party.

It has also been posted "What legacy are you giving your children with your constant brain washing that they are hated and don't have a chance to be successful because they are Aboriginal?" A legacy of hopelessness, which is one of the major factors in suicide among young Aboriginals that come from these bands, and these reserves.

That is Canadas legacy of hopelessness ... from over a century of abuse and disappearance of children in residential schools ... and genocidal policies that openly sought ... the final solution ... for all Indigenous people ... total assimilation and destruction of them as a people ... The legacy of hoplessness was intentionally imposed by Canada to convince Indigenous people to give up their traditional ways and culture.

Canadians are only starting to understand the scope of Canadas complicity in the attempted and ongoing destruction of the lands that sustain them. If you do not inform yourself ... you opinion is of no use in democratic dialogue.

[Riverwind]

UN Convention on Genocide, 1948...

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

None of the things that the Canadian gov't has done come close to that definition. Assimilation is not genocide - in fact the overwhelming majority of countries in the world have assimilation as a national policy. Canada with it policies on multi-culturalism today is one of the few countries that does not pressure minority groups to assimilate.

[saga]

UN Convention on Genocide, 1948...

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

None of the things that the Canadian gov't has done come close to that definition. Assimilation is not genocide - in fact the overwhelming majority of countries in the world have assimilation as a national policy. Canada with it policies on multi-culturalism today is one of the few countries that does not pressure minority groups to assimilate.

Canada most definitely has committed genocide.

The removal of children from their homes ... see -e- ... and systematic abuse of children to destroy their culture (needles through their tongues if they spoke their own language) under government policy, mandate and supervision. In 1907, a government commissioned report indicated 50% death rate in the residential schools ... and was quickly squashed. In 1922 the government chose to proceed with ... the final solution... continued destruction of Indigenous people through the residential school system. In 1924 traditional religion and governance was criminalized ... and at Six Nations when the RCMP arrived to violently break up the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Council, they also stole the treaty documents nand wampum belts ... evidence of intention to destroy the people rather than honour the legal treaties.

The facts of Canadas actions to destroy Indigenous people are horrific. I really do not care what other countries did ... I want Canadan to step up and own its actions ... like any decent person is expected to do ... and honour the agreements we made with our allies.

There is no other way to live in peace with our neighbours. If they are treated respectfully through the land claims processes, we will gain a stronger more mature country. If they are disrespected ... again ... Canada consigns itself to the rubbish bin of greed and ongoing strife. You cannot deal effectively with them with the tactics you use here to intimidate people, Riv. Apartheid ... race based rights ... crapola ...

They were sovereign nations that we made treaties with ... and then we stabbed them in the back. The treaties were never abolished, rescinded or otherwise legally vacated. That says something ...

All else is just whining and excuse making ... or attempt to again force them into submission. Better get over that idea ... They will force Canada into submission without arms ... just by standing on their land.

In that regard ... I would like to address the MYTH that there is a way for police or the army to remove Indigenous people from land that they have reclaimed. Since they are unarmed, the police do not shoot them because they would be in deep doodoo with Canadians and the international community. Thus, it is hand to hand combat ... want to know how many of our police and soldiers are interested in fighting hand to hand with Indigenous people whose passions are inflamed by centuries of mistreatment by Canadian governments and police ... ask any cop or soldier you know!!! If this is Canadas worst hardline approach ... hahahahahahahaha ... is all I can say!!! It took over 100 OPP with batons, tasers and tear gas to arrest FOURTEEN Haudenosaunee at Six Nations ... It took five OPP men to take down one middleaged Haudenosaunee woman!! And over 100 OPP could not retain control of the site ... because they were faced down and walked off the land by the women leading the community with arms linked ... and thousands of Indigenous people arriving from across the continent to support them ... as they will in ANY similar attack.

This is not a situation where Canada can play its game of isolating and picking clean each treaty group. There is now an organized Indigenous resistance across the land and around the world. Canadas only tool now is propoganda ... attempts to set Canadians against the Indigenous people who reclaim their land and their rights. Riverwind is a good example of the propoganda machine. How much are you paid to twist minds on boards like this, Riv ... and are you paid by the party or am I as a taxpayer funding your work here

STOP THE GENOCIDE. ACKNOWLEDGE TREATY LAND TITLES AND SELF GOVERNANCE!!!

... otherwise, Canada can forget its high sounding ideals that some of us still strive for, and Canada can take its place in history with other fascist power and money hungry nations who disrespect their citizens and those of other nations they have subjugated within their borders. This kind of information does not stay hidden any more... because Canadians like me want to live in a decent country ... perhaps someday.

[Riverwind]

The removal of children from their homes ... see -e- ... and systematic abuse of children to destroy their culture (needles through their tongues if they spoke their own language) under government policy, mandate and supervision.

Every immigrant child in Canada was:

1) Forced to attend public school

2) Disciplined for not using English

3) Made to feel that any religion other than Christianity was inferior

4) Subject to various form of corporal punishment for bad behavior.

What made the residential schools so bad was the fact that kids were separated from the parents and the gov't failed to provide adequate funding or supervision. This, in turn, led to incidents where individual administrators and teachers used forms of discipline that were not acceptable even at time and also allowed few pedophiles to abuse some kids.

Gov't incompetence is not genocide.

Crimes committed by individuals that had a duty to care for these kids is not genocide.

The gov't is vicariously liable for what happened in these schools because it forced the kids to attend, however, it is ridiculous to say that the gov't sanctioned or even knew about the more extreme cases of abuse that were going on.

[ponyboy]

UN Convention on Genocide, 1948...

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

None of the things that the Canadian gov't has done come close to that definition. Assimilation is not genocide - in fact the overwhelming majority of countries in the world have assimilation as a national policy. Canada with it policies on multi-culturalism today is one of the few countries that does not pressure minority groups to assimilate.

Canada most definitely has committed genocide.

The removal of children from their homes ... see -e- ... and systematic abuse of children to destroy their culture (needles through their tongues if they spoke their own language) under government policy, mandate and supervision. In 1907, a government commissioned report indicated 50% death rate in the residential schools ... and was quickly squashed. In 1922 the government chose to proceed with ... the final solution... continued destruction of Indigenous people through the residential school system. In 1924 traditional religion and governance was criminalized ... and at Six Nations when the RCMP arrived to violently break up the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Council, they also stole the treaty documents nand wampum belts ... evidence of intention to destroy the people rather than honour the legal treaties.

The facts of Canadas actions to destroy Indigenous people are horrific. I really do not care what other countries did ... I want Canadan to step up and own its actions ... like any decent person is expected to do ... and honour the agreements we made with our allies.

There is no other way to live in peace with our neighbours. If they are treated respectfully through the land claims processes, we will gain a stronger more mature country. If they are disrespected ... again ... Canada consigns itself to the rubbish bin of greed and ongoing strife. You cannot deal effectively with them with the tactics you use here to intimidate people, Riv. Apartheid ... race based rights ... crapola ...

They were sovereign nations that we made treaties with ... and then we stabbed them in the back.

All else is just whining and excuse making ... or attempt to again force them into submission. Better get ovet that idea ...

You go Saga,it occurs to me that if,,,you support Israels right to exist,but do not support First Nations rights,Then that is subjective racism to the nth degree.I am so tired of those who would attack FN people for going after their rights.If the American blacks had not stood up to their racist neighbors in the south,they would still be riding at the back of the bus and hanging in trees.

[Riverwind]

If the American blacks had not stood up to their racist neighbors in the south,they would still be riding at the back of the bus and hanging in trees.

American blacks demanded to be treated as equals. Aborginals are demanding that they be given DNA based rights that no other person is allowed to have. There is no comparison.

[saga]

If the American blacks had not stood up to their racist neighbors in the south,they would still be riding at the back of the bus and hanging in trees.

American blacks demanded to be treated as equals. Aborginals are demanding that they be given DNA based rights that no other person is allowed to have. There is no comparison.

...blah blah blah Riv ... earn your money ... or is that my money ...

Indigenous people are asking only equality too ... recognition as ... hello! ... nations with whom Canada has legal treaties ... that it now needs to honour.

You mean rights that no other Canadian is allowed to have ... but you see they are not Canadians, according to the treaties, but sovereign nations. Are our agreemenst with China, Japan, etc. RACE BASED ... NO ... they are agreements with sovereign nations of another race. Big deal.

You have overplayed the race card Riv. Your purpose here on this discussion board is to fuel racism among Canadians to support federal government denial of treaty rights.

Your purpose is continued genocide.

Your purpose STINKS!

... but it is a living I suppose ...

[saga]

The removal of children from their homes ... see -e- ... and systematic abuse of children to destroy their culture (needles through their tongues if they spoke their own language) under government policy, mandate and supervision.

Every immigrant child in Canada was:

1) Forced to attend public school

2) Disciplined for not using English

3) Made to feel that any religion other than Christianity was inferior

4) Subject to various form of corporal punishment for bad behavior.

What made the residential schools so bad was the fact that kids were separated from the parents and the gov't failed to provide adequate funding or supervision. This, in turn, led to incidents where individual administrators and teachers used forms of discipline that were not acceptable even at time and also allowed few pedophiles to abuse some kids.

Gov't incompetence is not genocide.

Crimes committed by individuals that had a duty to care for these kids is not genocide.

The gov't is vicariously liable for what happened in these schools because it forced the kids to attend, however, it is ridiculous to say that the gov't sanctioned or even knew about the more extreme cases of abuse that were going on.

Correction ... what made the residential schools so bad is that HALF OF THE STUDENTS NEVER MADE IT OUT ALIVE!!!

It was not incompetence ... it was planned ignorance and intentional avoidance. Government officials knew of the high death rate and knowingly continued the program. That is complicity, not incompetence...

An example here:

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/resschool/dec1895cri.html

Another example here

http://www.montrealmirror.com/ARCHIVES/200...2703/news3.html

Governments do not want the whole story told, because all Canadian governments are complicit in the genocide.

Note the young mans statement at the end of the article ... These are the youth who grew up without the legacy of hopelessness ingrained by the residential schools. They know what Canada stands for in ideals ... and they know Canada has undermined its own ideals consistently. They are adults now ... and they are strong and they have Canadas number.

I know there are many many Canadian who, like me, are horrified by the abuses that they KNOW happened.

It is our time to stand and be counted among those who truly aspire to the Canadian ideal, so shabbily treated by our governments that no longer represent the people, but represent the worldwide interests of power and greed.

[jdobbin]

Remember, this was about the Metis originally. Their issues are separate from First Nations issues.

[Riverwind]

Correction ... what made the residential schools so bad is that HALF OF THE STUDENTS NEVER MADE IT OUT ALIVE!!!

Child mortality rate was very high in society at the time and aboriginals had less resistance to certain diseases than non-aboriginals. The schools obviously made the situation worse, however, people did not react to stories of kids dying of disease in those days as strongly as they do today because kids died all of the time - it was expected. You cannot apply standards and knowledge of people today to judge the actions of people in the past.

Failure to recognize how serious the problem was is another example of gov't incompetence, however, it does not come close to anything resembling deliberate genocide.

[saga]

Remember, this was about the Metis originally. Their issues are separate from First Nations issues.

True ... do they have treaty rights ...

[jdobbin]

True ... do they have treaty rights ...

This is what the Supreme Court will decide this fall. If they do, it will be first time that rights associated to a non-Native group are affirmed by the court. No one is sure what it will eventually mean.

[saga]

Correction ... what made the residential schools so bad is that HALF OF THE STUDENTS NEVER MADE IT OUT ALIVE!!!

Child mortality rate was very high in society at the time and aboriginals had less resistance to certain diseases than non-aboriginals. The schools obviously made the situation worse, however, people did not react to stories of kids dying of disease in those days as strongly as they do today because kids died all of the time - it was expected. You cannot apply standards and knowledge of people today to judge the actions of people in the past.

Failure to recognize how serious the problem was is another example of gov't incompetence, however, it does not come close to anything resembling deliberate genocide.

Sorry j, but I will not allow this to go unanswered.

The two examples I cited ... one child was kicked down the stairs to her death. The other was beaten by nuns with hockey sticks. READ THEM ... or are you too chicken !!!!!!

If you put three Indigenous children in a bed, two without tb and one with, all carefully arranged that way ... yes ... they die of disease ... by intentional action.

People did not hear stories of the children dying in those days ... they were covered up and are still covered up.

- If Canada had no legal obligation to honour the treaties, Canada would let the Indigenous nations go to court and lose. Canada prefers to settle out of court, because Canada knows it is legally liable to honour the treaties.

- If Canada had no complicity in the residential school abuses and deaths ... Canada would let Indigenous people take them to court ... instead, Canada prefers a blanket payout with an acknowledgement that is not an apology because an apology would leave it legally liable for complicity.

Believe me ... this is the tip of the iceberg. Families were destroyed, children disappeared ... murdered or escaped but could not go home ... so they died in the city streets instead.

I am tired of your shockingly ignorant defence of Canadian government complicity. IT IS MY GOVERNMENT TOO!!!

I object to paying my taxpayer dollars toward your salary for you to spew racism and twist facts and manipulate people emotions and fears in a public discussion forum. Obviously the Canadian government is desperate to avoid detection ... but it is inevitable.

GET A REAL JOB RIV!!!