What do natives want?

[yam]

Everything stated or argued is never isolated but checked by two or three peoples to make sure everything is covered yet still contain the main point. This is ONE of the many particularistic "aboriginal" ways. In fact this way . . . now, is more than simply 'aboriginal".

[Live From China]

Actually Tsi, I do not regard debate as having to have a winner and a loser. Rather, I regard it as a way a way of expanding one's knowledge. You may find this surprising, but I have actually learned a great deal from you. I find the passport issue fascinating; when I was a kid, I used to make my own, and my own money too (no, I am not a counterfeiter). Pretended I had my own country. I would just like to just see a picture of one of yours.

When, you state somethings, I will say to myself, "Gee, that's interesting!" Of course, I haven't told you that until now (except when I said it would be cool to have your own passport).

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

It IS acceptable to make a statement without always providing evidence. That is the basis of discussion - an exploration of ideas and information. If there is something said that is suspect then t is up to you to find out more. That can be achieved by asking more questions, doing your own research, or totally rejecting the statement altogether. If we were having a discussion over cofee at a Timmy's no one would be running out to get references from the library or stopping the discussion, opening a notebook and printing off the facts.

Oral history is not the statement of one person. It is the collective history and knowledge of a nation of people. it has references and confirmations. The reason it has been validated by your supreme court is that it was tested against the British written history and found not to only be precise but also exact in many details left out in the mainstream historical texts. The process of obtaining and preserving oral history doesn't depend on rote memory like you would use in school remembering dates and such. It is based on teachings and stories preserved in wampum and symbols (it is not quite right to suggest that we had no written history - wampum preserves our history in many cases). Certain acts and ceremonies also preserve the events. So it has been verified and legitimized by telling many people the same stories, having each of them repeat them back until the knowledge keepers are satisfied and then reciting them together when it is questioned. When preserved this way our oral tradition is much more accurate because it is not subject to the same individual bias that most of your written history is caught up in.

Passports - even Canadian ones - are generally protected. I have seen one on the net posted by an old friend but it is no longer available online. I don't need to ~prove~ to any of you that they exist, yet I provided references from people who have used them. They do exist and are recognized in over 36 countries this far. There are a lot of places in the world our people have not yet travelled so there may be more places. There are some countries as well, who have not yet accepted them and our Royaner (like any diplomat) are attempting to change that.

O:nen

[Live From China]

It IS acceptable to make a statement without always providing evidence. That is the basis of discussion - an exploration of ideas and information. If there is something said that is suspect then t is up to you to find out more. That can be achieved by asking more questions, doing your own research, or totally rejecting the statement altogether. If we were having a discussion over cofee at a Timmy's no one would be running out to get references from the library or stopping the discussion, opening a notebook and printing off the facts.

Actually, this is not true (and I say this with all due respect).

Firstly, there is a huge difference between a friendly discussion at Tim Horton's and an intellectual debate (and no, there doesn't have to be a winner and a loser). Of course, at TH's no one expects you to run to the internet, the library or the university to find the facts. But even in coffee table discussions, people will say,"Hey, that's interesting; where did you read that?" Or the many permutations thereof. When we can show evidence to back up what we say, we show great respect for the people to whom we are talking. And for ourselves. We are saying, "I respect you as a friend/associate/person and an equal." I mean seriously, what does it benefit one to say, "F**k you, go look it up yourself!"? Or some other type of angry response?

There is also discussion where friends simply talk about things. Generally, if everyone is on the same side, you are talking or "preaching to the converted." Here, no one cares about evidence. This is really just talk.

Secondly, if someone says something that is suspect or lacks evidence the onus is upon the person making the statement, not the skeptic. Carl Sagan outlines this in is book The Demon Haunted World. An excellent read, I might add. This was first proposed by the philosopher David Hume (I believe he wrote A Treatise on Human Nature, among many other theses). It has become the basis of research, law, science, "debate, and yes, discussion. As an aside, he also stated, "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proof."

Let's think about this. You go to court and say, "Joe murdered John." No proof, no evidence (circumstantial or otherwise). Jury or judge: Guilty and that's it. Yes, this is not a discussion, but it just shows how powerful and important a tool evidence can be. Life altering or life saving in some cases.

I mean even you present evidence or attempt to when you say, "Our oral tradition says such and such."

[geoffrey]

Actually, it seems like Canada doesn't even recognize the passports:

http://www.easterndoor.com/archives/vol13/43.html

Just because a piece of paper says your soverign, doesn't mean it's so. Congrats, New Zeland let you guys go visit some Maori, past that, your nationhood is just symbolic at best.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon! China,

Try again. A debate looks for a winner of the argument.

A discussion is merely an exchange of ideas. If you want to take it into a philosphy or turn it into an ideology, then look it up yourself and prove and disprove your theories. After all they are YOUR theories that are doubted in YOUR mind.

You misread "anger" for disinterest.

David Hume operates from the western worldview. He like you cannot see the indigeneous worldview we operate from. Anything he says about discussion has no relevence.

Carl Sagan is "way" out there. Using him as a reference is like saying that God is only a Christian.

O:nen

[Okwaho]

still no answer oh king of trolls

He gave you a link so you can look it up, are you that lazy? You all want proof and verification and when we give it to you you can't stand it! What's the matter...truth hurt?

[Okwaho]

She:kon!

That is the difference between western-anglo-european Christian worldview and my indigeneous worldview. You have to find a winner and a loser. You define yourself by it and set every interaction with the same goal.

On the other hand those of us who subscribe to an indigeneous worldview are here to discuss. We have no need in winning. We're just interested in getting to the truth.

I'm here for discussion and you'll never win a debate as long as my goals are different.

O:nen

In your indigenous worldview is presenting a statement without evidence acceptable?

Does all your oral history or statements presented without evidence considered the truth because you and you alone say it is?

Is making unsubstantiated claims to and about indigenous people or others the way your people debate issues?

Making false claims or statements seems to be personally your proudest debating attribute.

Somehow I don't think this is the aboriginal way.

Look who's talking. Mister V and Skyclad couldn't provide evidence for some of the statements they made and we provided evidence to contradict them. We have shown evidence for pretty much every statement that we've made. If you choose not to believe it that's your problem we still provided it!

[Live From China]

Using him (Carl Sagan) as a reference is like saying that God is only a Christian.

How so?

David Hume operates from the western worldview. He like you cannot see the indigeneous worldview we operate from. Anything he says about discussion has no relevence.

Well, you are discussing things with Westerners. And whether you like it or not, you are living in Western society. You will have to make your land claims deals with a Western government.

And, if you are disinterested, why bother responding?

[Canuck E Stan]

We have shown evidence for pretty much every statement that we've made. If you choose not to believe it that's your problem we still provided it!

It's not an issue of believing,it's an issue of supporting your statements.

"Pretty much every statement" is not ALL the claims being asked to clarify by those reading the boards here.

I'm afraid not being able to validate your remarks only makes your statements appear to be exaggerated thinking and wishful fantasies.

Thirty-six countries recognize your passport,who are they?

The statement was made,why can't it be answered?

Unless it's bogus,but that would take a big man to come out of denial and admit he was wrong and can't provide the list.

So big guy,what's the answer?

[deirdrie]

tsi please provide list

[Gayogoho]

tsi please provide list

Here's a list

http://www.kahonwes.com/links1/links_misc.htm

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/

http://www.ckrz.com/

http://www.ratical.com/many_worlds/6Nations/DatingIC.html

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/actionalert/

http://sisis,nativeweb.org/clark/histmain.html

http://sixnations.buffnet.net/

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/aboriginal-heritage/

http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/I-5/index.html

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/c1867_e.html

http://66.221.42.75/files/nations_and_corp...roclamation.PDF

some video here

http://reclamationinfo.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=10

http://auto_sol.tao.ca/

http://www.streamreel.com/archives/aim/aim_gentle.htm

Gayogoho

Nya:Weh for your time.

[mister_v]

Look who's talking. Mister V and Skyclad couldn't provide evidence for some of the statements they made and we provided evidence to contradict them. We have shown evidence for pretty much every statement that we've made. If you choose not to believe it that's your problem we still provided it!

Nice try bub. If you want to disregard historical documents that I've mentioned and interpreted according to their intended meaning, thats your problem. You're like a child who covers his ears and cries "nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you". Its a trait that seems to be epidemic in Six Nations fanatics.

You're delusional but persistent.

P.S. Six Nations sovereignty still only exists in your head. Or it might be in your ass. Either way, it doesn't exist in the real world.

[Canuck E Stan]

tsi please provide list

Here's a list

The List of 36 countries that recognize the native passport is what was asked to be supplied.

Is this part of the denial process natives go through when you don't have the answer?

Understanding and communications isn't exactly a trait any of you seem to have.

I'll take it as a "can't back up my claim" and a "I'm not able to answer" from you.

And you want people to believe your land claims.

[Okwaho]

We have shown evidence for pretty much every statement that we've made. If you choose not to believe it that's your problem we still provided it!

It's not an issue of believing,it's an issue of supporting your statements.

"Pretty much every statement" is not ALL the claims being asked to clarify by those reading the boards here.

I'm afraid not being able to validate your remarks only makes your statements appear to be exaggerated thinking and wishful fantasies.

Thirty-six countries recognize your passport,who are they?

The statement was made,why can't it be answered?

Unless it's bogus,but that would take a big man to come out of denial and admit he was wrong and can't provide the list.

So big guy,what's the answer?

Go back and read the posts! We have provided evidence. Just because you're to damn lazy to read the links Tsi provided for you is we have not provided evidence?

[Okwaho]

Look who's talking. Mister V and Skyclad couldn't provide evidence for some of the statements they made and we provided evidence to contradict them. We have shown evidence for pretty much every statement that we've made. If you choose not to believe it that's your problem we still provided it!

Nice try bub. If you want to disregard historical documents that I've mentioned and interpreted according to their intended meaning, thats your problem. You're like a child who covers his ears and cries "nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you". Its a trait that seems to be epidemic in Six Nations fanatics.

You're delusional but persistent.

P.S. Six Nations sovereignty still only exists in your head. Or it might be in your ass. Either way, it doesn't exist in the real world.

Dream on! You're caught under the spell of your governments disinformation policy! Taking historical documents out of their original context does not constitute proof of anything. Go back to the begining and read them all and you'll find it quite clear that the Six Nations are Soereign!!! I've told you before, it's all in the history!

[Canuck E Stan]

We have provided evidence.

You've provided nothing.

The game is over,the 36 countries accepting your "passport" do not exist.

We have just witnessed how aboriginal oral history works.

Or should I say how native myths are started.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Tsi and Okwahu,

I looked through the entire first page of links on that google page you mentioned...

I found one reference to natives going to New Zealand, and thats all. I did not see any list of 36 countries that honour your passport.

I did read that link above, however, about how an american native was not allowed into canada with your passport ... I found it amusing that they took away all of his 'Canadian Identification', when in your guy's words none of you are actually Canadian.... if thats true, then how can any of you have Canadian Identification?

Do either of you two have Canadian ID? Such as a health card, passport, driver's license, Ontario Works card, SIN number? Does any of your native status identification have Canada written on it or at the very least a maple leaf????

Will you answer me? Or will you call me a racist and ignore me????

[Okwaho]

Tsi and Okwahu,

I looked through the entire first page of links on that google page you mentioned...

I found one reference to natives going to New Zealand, and thats all. I did not see any list of 36 countries that honour your passport.

I did read that link above, however, about how an american native was not allowed into canada with your passport ... I found it amusing that they took away all of his 'Canadian Identification', when in your guy's words none of you are actually Canadian.... if thats true, then how can any of you have Canadian Identification?

Do either of you two have Canadian ID? Such as a health card, passport, driver's license, Ontario Works card, SIN number? Does any of your native status identification have Canada written on it or at the very least a maple leaf????

Will you answer me? Or will you call me a racist and ignore me????

Well if you read the links 36 countries listed or not you know our passports do exist then!

First of all I don't have a "Status Card" I have a Nation Card and a Rotinonshonni passport. Secondly, even an American can have the following; health card,driver's license and SIN number. I know several that do. When I lived in the U.S. after being discharged from the Army I had a S.S. number issued to me as well as obtained a California driver's license. It is all routine for residential status and has nothing to do with citizenship!

[deirdrie]

there is still no list of the 36 countries again you can not provide case ended

[Canuck E Stan]

We have provided evidence.

You've provided nothing.

The game is over,the 36 countries accepting your "passport" do not exist.

We have just witnessed how aboriginal oral history works.

Or should I say how native myths are started.

Well if you read the links 36 countries listed or not you know our passports do exist then!

Your posts are not worth reading or responding to.You live in a world of make believe.

[Live From China]

Anyone can make a passport. The real crux of this issue is, "OK, if you do have passports, do they actually work?" And that always was the issue. Once again, provide the list of 36 countries that accept them.

[Riley]

Anyone else get the impression that Tsi and Okwaho are the same person? Tsi's posts are always followed by Okwaho's posts, within a reasonably short time span. They answer each other's questions and defend each other without a thought to reality. Tsi has also been known to post as several people.....

[magpie]

Anyone else get the impression that Tsi and Okwaho are the same person? Tsi's posts are always followed by Okwaho's posts, within a reasonably short time span. They answer each other's questions and defend each other without a thought to reality. Tsi has also been known to post as several people.....

I have read at least two other boards that "Tsi" has blogged on. I stopped posting on the reclamation site as his responses were so disgusting when speaking of the "colonialists" or "settlers". On the non-native board he was caught posting as numerous other people, and was just stirring the pot...making racist comments disguised as a non native. Such an honourable person.

I am glad to see that their reputation is getting "out there". If these people posting here are representative of those natives sitting at the negotiating table, I can not see how the negotiations will progress any more quickly than what they already were before the "militant" wing took over.

Welcom to the world that Caledonia is living in!

[scribblet]

Anyone else get the impression that Tsi and Okwaho are the same person? Tsi's posts are always followed by Okwaho's posts, within a reasonably short time span. They answer each other's questions and defend each other without a thought to reality. Tsi has also been known to post as several people.....

From what has been said on other boards he could be, but must be using another IP or he would have been caught. My guess is he or someone else put out the word for reinforcements to come to this board and they have. I don't recall seeing so many threads about one issue, or for that matter, so many native posters. There has obviously been a call put out to 'man' this board.