Red Tory/ Blue Tory?

[Oddman]

Well, I won't bother quoting the wors from Samstranger or whatever his/her name is...hate speech should never be posted more than once.

But he/she claims that pro-life, anti-gay themes in the Blue Tory manifesto are core Tory values.

When do we talk about human rights. Oh, because the Tories couldn't care less about human rights. What about the environment (yes, yes...we know about the 13 years of liberal neglect...but spending the first 5 months in office pointing fingers at the former government still does nothing to clean our air). What about the fact that Tories DO NOT OWN GOD!!!! I mean, they want to privatize almost everything, but to try and stake claim on what Christianity should mean to people (i.e - anti-gay marriage)...it's these kind of policies that can really hurt a nation.

Just one question though - why would anyone be concerned over whether a gay couple marry? Does it mean you will have to begin having anal sex with your wife or, god forbid, go down on her once in a while?

Blue Tories diguise "hate" as "values" making me wonder why anyone would want to be in that camp.

The beauty of free speech is to allow opinions like sam's. If you call yourself a human rights activist, you need to learn that his opinion is just as valuable as yours. How dare you accuse him of hate speeches?

If he is against "gay rights"(laff), that is his choice, it may not be yours, but who cares?

It is idiots like you that try to infect people with the notion that you pro gay world is the only way it should be, well, many of us disagree. Just because you see it as hate, does not make it so.

Alright, let's discuss then.

If I don't feel that right-wingers should have the same rights as the rest of us, would you say "Hey, that's great...way to support free speech."...?

I didn't call myself a human rights activist.

I feel, and I am well within my rights, that if someone (Sam for example) feels certain humans are not as worthy to have cartain rights it is a message of intolerance and hate.

We could go on and on with the conondrum of free speech and rights - but I still would like to know why gays and lesbians are considered to be such a threat to anyone's PRIVATE religious beliefs.

Do tell....

It has nothing to do with having the "right" to gay marriage, I was talking about his right to disagree with it. You seem to want to take that right away from him. You are a bunch of hypocrits, claiming to want human rights granted for everything from screwing a dog to wearing a turbin, because these people claim to be oppressed, yet you would tell sam to shut up and take away his right to free speech because he is against gay marriage.

SO WHAT if you think it is hate & intolerance? Let him say how he feels! If more people would say what they think, regardless of how people feel about it, maybe we'd have less of this politically correct BS.

If you feel the Canadian rules make you oppressed, then leave! If the Canadian government decides to overturn the gay marriage law and you don't like it, well... too bad, but I will not tell you not to talk about it, like you tried to do with Sam. If it does not get overturned, big deal, it is still okay to dislike gay marriage and talk about it until the cows come home. I give a rat's ass what these human rights pussies will call intolerance & hate speech, because nothing EVER pleases these useless (bad word)! Someone needs to,like sam says, stand up and say what they truly feel, if not, it will not stop until the whole white english straight male population is put in jail for hate crimes(for calling them fags or some shit). The only problem with putting all these people in jail is: who will be left in the work force who isn't unionized?

If you ask me(not that you would), I say much of this human rights talk is causing more racism towards minorities and it will eventually explode into a nasty situation that could have been avoided.

Haha - good one. Before that post I almost thought you had something intelligent to say...I guess not.

Let me say what I feel.

What if someone did not want blacks to have rights? Is that ok to you? After all, some people interpret the Bible to state that blacks are lesser. So, going by your logic it is just free speech if you say that blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote.

See, the thing is, you remind me of people who lived early in the 20th century - who didn't want women to vote because they were, well...women.

So, as a person who is excercising MY free speech, let me say this.

You have written things that are on par with KKK material, but you still have not provided a reason as to why you think, or why anyone would think, that gays do not deserve the same rights as you.

Will you answer that question, or just fill the next post with more rantings about nothing in particular?

[Leader Circle]

Haha - good one. Before that post I almost thought you had something intelligent to say...I guess not.

Let me say what I feel.

What if someone did not want blacks to have rights? Is that ok to you? After all, some people interpret the Bible to state that blacks are lesser. So, going by your logic it is just free speech if you say that blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote.

See, the thing is, you remind me of people who lived early in the 20th century - who didn't want women to vote because they were, well...women.

So, as a person who is excercising MY free speech, let me say this.

You have written things that are on par with KKK material, but you still have not provided a reason as to why you think, or why anyone would think, that gays do not deserve the same rights as you.

Will you answer that question, or just fill the next post with more rantings about nothing in particular?

I know that I am smarter than you, yet I am nice enough a person to not look down on you for it.

You are too ----ing dumb to realize that I mean I will abide by the laws of the land. If the Canadian governments says it is okay to bash & beat gays, then I will ablige them, if they tell me not to, I will not. Pretty simple logic, don't ya think?

As far as answering your question, I don't feel compelled to give you a reason, that you will attempt to trash and call bigotry or whatever you human rights pussies use to make you sleep better at night.

I am a believer in the Bible and believe in the traditional definition of marriage and even though you aethiests don't buy that as a reason, I don't feel the need to give you more. In the same sentence, I don't think that gays are being oppresssed if they did not have the right to marriage. I think your kind of people are the main reason we have problem children running around, because you are one of the people who would call spanking a child a criminal activity.

If my becoming a clansman would get people like you out of Canada, I'd gladly wear the hood!!

I am done with you, don't bother responding. I loathe your kind of people!

[Oddman]

Haha - good one. Before that post I almost thought you had something intelligent to say...I guess not.

Let me say what I feel.

What if someone did not want blacks to have rights? Is that ok to you? After all, some people interpret the Bible to state that blacks are lesser. So, going by your logic it is just free speech if you say that blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote.

See, the thing is, you remind me of people who lived early in the 20th century - who didn't want women to vote because they were, well...women.

So, as a person who is excercising MY free speech, let me say this.

You have written things that are on par with KKK material, but you still have not provided a reason as to why you think, or why anyone would think, that gays do not deserve the same rights as you.

Will you answer that question, or just fill the next post with more rantings about nothing in particular?

I know that I am smarter than you, yet I am nice enough a person to not look down on you for it.

You are too ----ing dumb to realize that I mean I will abide by the laws of the land. If the Canadian governments says it is okay to bash & beat gays, then I will ablige them, if they tell me not to, I will not. Pretty simple logic, don't ya think?

As far as answering your question, I don't feel compelled to give you a reason, that you will attempt to trash and call bigotry or whatever you human rights pussies use to make you sleep better at night.

I am a believer in the Bible and believe in the traditional definition of marriage and even though you aethiests don't buy that as a reason, I don't feel the need to give you more. In the same sentence, I don't think that gays are being oppresssed if they did not have the right to marriage. I think your kind of people are the main reason we have problem children running around, because you are one of the people who would call spanking a child a criminal activity.

If my becoming a clansman would get people like you out of Canada, I'd gladly wear the hood!!

I am done with you, don't bother responding. I loathe your kind of people!

Aw, did I make you upset? Poor lil baby!

I am agnostic, not an aetheist.

You are not smarter than me, and I know this by reading your statement about beating up gay people if it were legal. You see, smart people THINK FOR THEMSELVES, while you say that you need the government to think for you.

You are perverting the Bible. I can only be thankful that it is you who is the minority. Yeah, that's right...you.

Oh, and by the way - those who are most vocal about their contempt for the gay lifestyle are almost always closet homosexuals...but no worries, your secret is safe with me.

No go turn on Pat Robertson...schmoe.

[Leader Circle]

Haha - good one. Before that post I almost thought you had something intelligent to say...I guess not.

Let me say what I feel.

What if someone did not want blacks to have rights? Is that ok to you? After all, some people interpret the Bible to state that blacks are lesser. So, going by your logic it is just free speech if you say that blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote.

See, the thing is, you remind me of people who lived early in the 20th century - who didn't want women to vote because they were, well...women.

So, as a person who is excercising MY free speech, let me say this.

You have written things that are on par with KKK material, but you still have not provided a reason as to why you think, or why anyone would think, that gays do not deserve the same rights as you.

Will you answer that question, or just fill the next post with more rantings about nothing in particular?

I know that I am smarter than you, yet I am nice enough a person to not look down on you for it.

You are too ----ing dumb to realize that I mean I will abide by the laws of the land. If the Canadian governments says it is okay to bash & beat gays, then I will ablige them, if they tell me not to, I will not. Pretty simple logic, don't ya think?

As far as answering your question, I don't feel compelled to give you a reason, that you will attempt to trash and call bigotry or whatever you human rights pussies use to make you sleep better at night.

I am a believer in the Bible and believe in the traditional definition of marriage and even though you aethiests don't buy that as a reason, I don't feel the need to give you more. In the same sentence, I don't think that gays are being oppresssed if they did not have the right to marriage. I think your kind of people are the main reason we have problem children running around, because you are one of the people who would call spanking a child a criminal activity.

If my becoming a clansman would get people like you out of Canada, I'd gladly wear the hood!!

I am done with you, don't bother responding. I loathe your kind of people!

Aw, did I make you upset? Poor lil baby!

I am agnostic, not an aetheist.

You are not smarter than me, and I know this by reading your statement about beating up gay people if it were legal. You see, smart people THINK FOR THEMSELVES, while you say that you need the government to think for you.

You are perverting the Bible. I can only be thankful that it is you who is the minority. Yeah, that's right...you.

Oh, and by the way - those who are most vocal about their contempt for the gay lifestyle are almost always closet homosexuals...but no worries, your secret is safe with me.

No go turn on Pat Robertson...schmoe.

Not that it matters, but the whole beat a fag thing was a joke, it was aimed at you directly. I actually hold no ill will towards homosexuals, I just do not think they deserve all the attention they receive and have our country's laws changed for them. That is my biggest problem with the homosexual movement.

If I were thinking of changing sides though odd, I would be hitting you up, seeing as you seem to enjoy a sausage or two. I appreciate the offer, but not today!!

[Oddman]

See, there you go again. That's what a grade three student might say. The word "fag" is on par with N****R...you just don't realize how hateful you sound. And that changing the laws excuse is flimsy, seeing as how laws are changed all the time - it is called evolving. you should join the evolution.

[LonJowett]

See, there you go again. That's what a grade three student might say. The word "fag" is on par with N****R...you just don't realize how hateful you sound. And that changing the laws excuse is flimsy, seeing as how laws are changed all the time - it is called evolving. you should join the evolution.

I'll vouch for you, Oddman. You're definitely smarter than him.

[MightyAC]

The sheer number of people that use the bible to justify their hatred astounds me.

A comedian once said that Christianity is a lot like the telephone game. It starts off with “Jesus loves you” and ends up “You must hate gays, jews, blacks, women and any member of an opposing sect”

I am not at all religious and for the most part I’m indifferent to it. However, it is hard to remain indifferent to such a vehicle of hate. Like Oddman tried to do, I often ask religious folk why they are so opposed to equality for homosexuals. Most often their opposition to same-sex marriage comes from the bible. They believe that God is against it. The idea that people could hate any group simply because it said to do so in a book is mind boggling but that seems to be the case.

It seems that Christians believe the text in the bible was directly inspired by a god. Again that is ridiculous to me but let’s go with that. Let’s say that a god spoke to some humans and they wrote down her words. At that time there were no printing presses. People had to copy the text by hand. The copies these educated people produced were then recopied by others. The original texts no longer exist and all we have now are copies of copies of copies, etc. However, some very old texts still exist. Historians have found examples from different time periods that show the texts weren’t simply copied but were in fact altered. The evidence shows that people took poetic license with the texts and exaggerated, altered and rewrote sections to support or discredit various religious movements at the time. Even if we believe that a god had inspired the original document it has long since become a very flawed human text. Many religious historians have discontinued their faith after researching this topic.

So now many people are using a flawed human document as a reason to hate other people. Like Mark Twain said “In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination.”

A good book on this topic is “Misquoting Jesus: The story of who changed the bible and why”

http://www.harpercollins.com/global_script...isbn=0060738170

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti.../601280384/1007

[Oddman]

Good post Mighty AC...I hope the relevance of it is not lost. And yes, it would be nice the question of dicrimination would be answered with something other than "It's in the Bible." Man, how I wish I could easily deflect important question by simply saying that it was in a book I read.

[Leader Circle]

See, there you go again. That's what a grade three student might say. The word "fag" is on par with N****R...you just don't realize how hateful you sound. And that changing the laws excuse is flimsy, seeing as how laws are changed all the time - it is called evolving. you should join the evolution.

It's not flimsy, it's being changed for 1% of the population, that's what is bullshit.

The word fag is not on par with n****r, give me a break, why would you write fag & not the other if they were on par? What do you people prefer to be called? If you find a word that suits you, I'll use it instead.

If I start a religious sect with 300,000 people you think the government would help us and change the laws so I could have 30 wives? NEVER! So don't give me this bullshit that you are only getting what you deserve!

It is not hate speech, it's trying to explain to people who are so thick, no point makes it in. Instead, you bring out the same old argument about human rights.

The Bible is not a hate book like you all wanna claim, because it explains things that you disagree with you call it down, too bad. Evolution is different than giving everything to someone who'll never give back. You selfish pricks want everything for nothing and do not care about the rest of Canada, just your pathetic causes.

[Leader Circle]

See, there you go again. That's what a grade three student might say. The word "fag" is on par with N****R...you just don't realize how hateful you sound. And that changing the laws excuse is flimsy, seeing as how laws are changed all the time - it is called evolving. you should join the evolution.

If I seem pissed off, it's because I am. I am so tired of hearing about another cause or protest, trying to disrupt other people's lives to get what you want. There are lots of people in Canada who don't get their way, yet not all of them feel the need for a protest, screaming human rights and the Bible is a hate book!!

Most of this shit is caused by left wing homosexuals with no ambition but to cause havok on the rest of the country, because they don't want to work and want the government to pay their way.

Someone mentioned in here about smokers having to pay for their medical costs, what about homosexuals who catch aids from their lifestyle, shouldn't they have to foot their own bill? I doubt that one of you would ever consider that, it's the governments job to babysit you. Your only job is to protest to get more things changed to suit your pampered lifestyles!

[August1991]

Most of this shit is caused by left wing homosexuals with no ambition but to cause havok on the rest of the country, because they don't want to work and want the government to pay their way.

Is that a new definition of welfare queen? (Sorry, I just couldn't walk away from that one.)

[Leader Circle]

The sheer number of people that use the bible to justify their hatred astounds me.

A comedian once said that Christianity is a lot like the telephone game. It starts off with “Jesus loves you” and ends up “You must hate gays, jews, blacks, women and any member of an opposing sect”

I am not at all religious and for the most part I’m indifferent to it. However, it is hard to remain indifferent to such a vehicle of hate. Like Oddman tried to do, I often ask religious folk why they are so opposed to equality for homosexuals. Most often their opposition to same-sex marriage comes from the bible. They believe that God is against it. The idea that people could hate any group simply because it said to do so in a book is mind boggling but that seems to be the case.

It seems that Christians believe the text in the bible was directly inspired by a god. Again that is ridiculous to me but let’s go with that. Let’s say that a god spoke to some humans and they wrote down her words. At that time there were no printing presses. People had to copy the text by hand. The copies these educated people produced were then recopied by others. The original texts no longer exist and all we have now are copies of copies of copies, etc. However, some very old texts still exist. Historians have found examples from different time periods that show the texts weren’t simply copied but were in fact altered. The evidence shows that people took poetic license with the texts and exaggerated, altered and rewrote sections to support or discredit various religious movements at the time. Even if we believe that a god had inspired the original document it has long since become a very flawed human text. Many religious historians have discontinued their faith after researching this topic.

So now many people are using a flawed human document as a reason to hate other people. Like Mark Twain said “In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination.”

A good book on this topic is “Misquoting Jesus: The story of who changed the bible and why”

http://www.harpercollins.com/global_script...isbn=0060738170

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti.../601280384/1007

Blah blah blah blah.

Is any of this useful? NO! Another Bible hater who wants to find the meaning of life from tea leaves!

I do not agree with people who will use the Bible for their convenience or people who will use the translation argument for anything that does not suit their cause. Homosexuality is wrong according to the Bible and Sodom & Gommmorah is a fine example of that, I am sorry to be the one to tell you that and it really hangs a cloud over what you believe, but I believe the Bible not you.

[Slavik44]

I know that I am smarter than you, yet I am nice enough a person to not look down on you for it.

You are too ----ing dumb to realize that I mean I will abide by the laws of the land. If the Canadian governments says it is okay to bash & beat gays, then I will ablige them, if they tell me not to, I will not. Pretty simple logic, don't ya think?

As far as answering your question, I don't feel compelled to give you a reason, that you will attempt to trash and call bigotry or whatever you human rights pussies use to make you sleep better at night.

I am a believer in the Bible and believe in the traditional definition of marriage and even though you aethiests don't buy that as a reason, I don't feel the need to give you more. In the same sentence, I don't think that gays are being oppresssed if they did not have the right to marriage. I think your kind of people are the main reason we have problem children running around, because you are one of the people who would call spanking a child a criminal activity.

If my becoming a clansman would get people like you out of Canada, I'd gladly wear the hood!!

I am done with you, don't bother responding. I loathe your kind of people!

You know it has been along time since I have felt this Irrate, but it has been a long time since I have read such hatred as is found in your post. Your post is perhaps the perfect example of all that is wrong with Religion. You talk about a loving god but you preach hatred.

Is it not true that in Romans chapter 12 the word of God insturcts you to live peaceable with mankind? Yet you propose beating and bashing gays if the law of Canada didn;t restrict it. Is it not true that in Romans chapter 12 you are told to not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with Good. Yet whne I read your posts, I do nto see any attempts made to overcoem "evil" with Good, instead I am witnessing a man attempting to overcome good with evil. did Romans 12 not say if oyur enemy is hungry feed him and if he is thirsty let him drink. I do nto see that love in you, instead I see you calling someone ----ing stupid. Does the bible not tell you to be kindly and affectionate one to another. Where is the kindness in dressing up in the garment of the KKK? Does the bible not say not to think of yourself more highly then you ought to think. Yet you are tainted with the poison of conciet and ruled by the thrown of hatred. Does the bible not say to bless them that persecute you and curse them not? But instead you have told us that you loathe someone who is in a debate with you. You have called the defenders of Human rights Pussies. You are hurling insults aganst those that stand up to injustice, when the bible tells you to love your nieghbor.

If you read the bible you will fidn that it says all have sinned, it will tell us that if you break on commandment you are guilty of breaking them all. Whne you persecute and attack gays because they have broken one commandment, you should likewise persecute yourself, because you canot say you ahve lived a perfect life. But the bible does not instruct you to persecute those that don;t believe the bible it tells you to avenge not, it tells you to turn the other cheek, show them kindness. You have done none of this, instead you ahve conintued to preach a message of hatred trying to point out a speck of saw dust in our society. But why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

[Technocrat]

Most of this shit is caused by left wing homosexuals with no ambition but to cause havok on the rest of the country, because they don't want to work and want the government to pay their way.

Is that a new definition of welfare queen? (Sorry, I just couldn't walk away from that one.)

August... you just made my day.... so horribly wrong... yet funny

leader circle... WOW... just WOW... with that statement you wrote is unbeleivably rediculous.

I will now ignore all posts you write as they are clearly a waste of time to read. In fact i think it says alot about the degeneration of the discourse here on the forums. Which is sad. I used to like reading the discussions here, unfortunately they have become well... a little silly as of late.

In an appeal to everyone here can we please please try to keep our discussions a little more civil? If i wanted to engage in political wanking i would watch fox news or Lou Dobbs.

[Leader Circle]

Most of this shit is caused by left wing homosexuals with no ambition but to cause havok on the rest of the country, because they don't want to work and want the government to pay their way.

Is that a new definition of welfare queen? (Sorry, I just couldn't walk away from that one.)

August... you just made my day.... so horribly wrong... yet funny

leader circle... WOW... just WOW... with that statement you wrote is unbeleivably rediculous.

I will now ignore all posts you write as they are clearly a waste of time to read. In fact i think it says alot about the degeneration of the discourse here on the forums. Which is sad. I used to like reading the discussions here, unfortunately they have become well... a little silly as of late.

In an appeal to everyone here can we please please try to keep our discussions a little more civil? If i wanted to engage in political wanking i would watch fox news or Lou Dobbs.

You are right, it is pointless to have an opinion around you! I have not tried to make my beliefs sound like hatred, but if that is how you interpret it then, so be it.

You may call me a bigot or whatever, but I don't hate you for being gay, I just don't agree with same sex marriage. That is the only point I was trying to make. It is still okay to be a social conservative, even though the media & the big cities will tell you that you're wrong.

[Leader Circle]

I know that I am smarter than you, yet I am nice enough a person to not look down on you for it.

You are too ----ing dumb to realize that I mean I will abide by the laws of the land. If the Canadian governments says it is okay to bash & beat gays, then I will ablige them, if they tell me not to, I will not. Pretty simple logic, don't ya think?

As far as answering your question, I don't feel compelled to give you a reason, that you will attempt to trash and call bigotry or whatever you human rights pussies use to make you sleep better at night.

I am a believer in the Bible and believe in the traditional definition of marriage and even though you aethiests don't buy that as a reason, I don't feel the need to give you more. In the same sentence, I don't think that gays are being oppresssed if they did not have the right to marriage. I think your kind of people are the main reason we have problem children running around, because you are one of the people who would call spanking a child a criminal activity.

If my becoming a clansman would get people like you out of Canada, I'd gladly wear the hood!!

I am done with you, don't bother responding. I loathe your kind of people!

You know it has been along time since I have felt this Irrate, but it has been a long time since I have read such hatred as is found in your post. Your post is perhaps the perfect example of all that is wrong with Religion. You talk about a loving god but you preach hatred.

Is it not true that in Romans chapter 12 the word of God insturcts you to live peaceable with mankind? Yet you propose beating and bashing gays if the law of Canada didn;t restrict it. Is it not true that in Romans chapter 12 you are told to not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with Good. Yet whne I read your posts, I do nto see any attempts made to overcoem "evil" with Good, instead I am witnessing a man attempting to overcome good with evil. did Romans 12 not say if oyur enemy is hungry feed him and if he is thirsty let him drink. I do nto see that love in you, instead I see you calling someone ----ing stupid. Does the bible not tell you to be kindly and affectionate one to another. Where is the kindness in dressing up in the garment of the KKK? Does the bible not say not to think of yourself more highly then you ought to think. Yet you are tainted with the poison of conciet and ruled by the thrown of hatred. Does the bible not say to bless them that persecute you and curse them not? But instead you have told us that you loathe someone who is in a debate with you. You have called the defenders of Human rights Pussies. You are hurling insults aganst those that stand up to injustice, when the bible tells you to love your nieghbor.

If you read the bible you will fidn that it says all have sinned, it will tell us that if you break on commandment you are guilty of breaking them all. Whne you persecute and attack gays because they have broken one commandment, you should likewise persecute yourself, because you canot say you ahve lived a perfect life. But the bible does not instruct you to persecute those that don;t believe the bible it tells you to avenge not, it tells you to turn the other cheek, show them kindness. You have done none of this, instead you ahve conintued to preach a message of hatred trying to point out a speck of saw dust in our society. But why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Slav if you followed the whole conversation, you'd see it was meant to be a joke. I don't feel the need to explain to you, but I am not a good example of christian values. I just hate to see Bible bashers, trying to make their case for same sex marriage. I believe homosexuality is WRONG and I think the Bible agrees with me and if you have a problem with that, well.... too bad.

[Oddman]

Dear Leader Circle,

I could continue the barrage of insults and Bible interpretation, but instead I will try to appeal to the good in you. I know it must be there somewhere.

I can't help but wonder, hypothetically speaking, if you were left in the dark regarding the rights of gays to marry each other. Let's say for years you just didn't have a clue gay people were getting married.

Would you notice a sudden or even gradual decaying of society? Of course you wouldn't, because things would be the same as they are now, only gay couples would have a piece of paper and sport a couple of rings. Virtually nothing in your life would be affected whatsoever. So it begs the question - What are you so afraid of?

As a gesture of good faith I will give you this - I did in fact type out the word "fag" but not the N bomb - you've got me there, and I can only say that you are right - if I am to equate the two words I should be equally willing to omit them both. I suppose the latter holds a higher 'sting rate' in my mind.

Leader, do you have any gay friends? I think maybe you base your opinion solely on your religious beliefs and not on first hand experience. I really hope we can continue discussing/debating without having to bait one another or hurl insults. If I have in previous posts offended you than I apologize.

I write this with the sincere intention of trying to explore the issue, rather than inflame tensions.

[Slavik44]

Slav if you followed the whole conversation, you'd see it was meant to be a joke. I don't feel the need to explain to you, but I am not a good example of christian values. I just hate to see Bible bashers, trying to make their case for same sex marriage. I believe homosexuality is WRONG and I think the Bible agrees with me and if you have a problem with that, well.... too bad.

I do have a problem with that, I have a very big problem with that. You see the bible tells us all have sinned. And what you are doing is claiming that one group of sinners canot get married while allowing other sinners to get married. The bible is clear on the fact that God makes no differentiation in sins. God apparently sees one sin just as bad as the other, and if you commit one, you commit them all. You infact admit that you are not a good Christian, perhaps you should not be allowed to be married. Every time you sin according to God you commit homosexuality so becarefull.

When you attack homosexuals ability to get married based on the so called immorality of Homosexuality you become a hypocrit, who founds his beliefs on a double standard. I will attack such things and campaign against such things, because actions like those are intolerable. It is extending the powers of evil and tyrany to a level they should not be extended to, it is trampling on the liberty of your fellow Canadians. And this is nothing short of Immoral. I do not believe you can stand behind the bible and say it gives you the justification to be an imoral, hypocrit, who lives a life of double standards and helps perpetuate injustice and discrimination, that is intolerable. And If I don't like it? No, not tough I will campaign against it, I will argue against it, and I will not stand for it. The bible gives you no justification to ruin other peoples lives, the bible has said that God wants humankind to choose to follow god. But when you get the government to force people to follow Gods morals, your are not only robbing people of their political liberties, but you are robbing people of their God given liberties. Who else do you want to steal Liberties from, who else do you want to persecute in the name of your religous text, Persecution in the name of religion needs to be removed from our society, I do not see a reason to reward such actions. You say homosexuality is wrong, I say you are in the wrong and I believe that anyone with an ounce of compassion or logic would understand that you do not have a religous or political leg to stand on when you deny gays the right to marry.

[Leader Circle]

Dear Leader Circle,

I could continue the barrage of insults and Bible interpretation, but instead I will try to appeal to the good in you. I know it must be there somewhere.

I can't help but wonder, hypothetically speaking, if you were left in the dark regarding the rights of gays to marry each other. Let's say for years you just didn't have a clue gay people were getting married.

Would you notice a sudden or even gradual decaying of society? Of course you wouldn't, because things would be the same as they are now, only gay couples would have a piece of paper and sport a couple of rings. Virtually nothing in your life would be affected whatsoever. So it begs the question - What are you so afraid of?

As a gesture of good faith I will give you this - I did in fact type out the word "fag" but not the N bomb - you've got me there, and I can only say that you are right - if I am to equate the two words I should be equally willing to omit them both. I suppose the latter holds a higher 'sting rate' in my mind.

Leader, do you have any gay friends? I think maybe you base your opinion solely on your religious beliefs and not on first hand experience. I really hope we can continue discussing/debating without having to bait one another or hurl insults. If I have in previous posts offended you than I apologize.

I write this with the sincere intention of trying to explore the issue, rather than inflame tensions.

Oddman,

I too can be civilized and I appreciate your sincerity in your last post. I too apologize for my behavior, but you have to understand where I come from. I was raised in a religious household and was taught that homosexuality was wrong and it has stuck with me. I have seen first hand the damage people do under the "religious" flag and it makes me understand where people's intolerance towards religion comes from. I do believe that the Bible does in fact preach against homosexuality and I stick to that. It sounds dumb to someone who does not believe in the Bible, but it's what I was taught.

As far as what same sex marriage, it doesn't do alot to me per se, but I have always grown up to understand marriage as a union of a man and a woman, and since I was taught that homosexuality was wrong, it cheapens marriage to me for it to include same sex unions. Many may call this short-sighted, but if it's what you were taught from birth and how you were raised and how you personally believe, then it makes sense. Sorry if this offends you, I just don't accept anything else.

I hold no ill will towards homosexuals and treat everyone with the same respect that I am treated(in person, not necessarily online...I can bust loose!)LOL. My wife's cousin is gay and lives with his partner and because we are both into computers, we actually have alot to talk about. I do not like his lifestyle and would not attend the wedding, were he to marry his partner, but I would not treat him with any less respect than another person. I am actually one of few in the family that treats him decent, most talk behind his back, because they don't like his homosexuality. He knows where I stand and we don't discuss their sex life, so everything is fine when I run into him. He is also one of the cousins I get along with better, because he is not stuck-up or unpleasant. I must also tell you I live in rural Alberta and these sort of things are greatly frowned upon.

I also grew up with an older neighbor who was gay and lived the wild life in Toronto and caught aids and died at 40 and he was a decent guy, just never respected the world of diseases.

I do see a decay in society, but not necessarily from same sex couples, it is also their supporters and the left side of the political spectrum who cause grief for the rest of Canada, be it through strikes, protests, marches and that sort of thing. I have seen the corruption in the schools & hospitals by these same people and the whole country has to pay for it. I spent some time while my wife was in the local hospital and saw the poor care that was offered to her and it outraged me that these same people want a raise every year or 6 months or however long their union leader decides, it truly disgusts me. And although they may not be the ring leaders in all of this, they seem to dwell in the same circles and carry the same flags and to me it is the decline of society as a whole. It pisses me off that these people can command much of how the government and the school system & hospitals are ran and they have no passion for what they do, just the wage they make.(They are not all this way....there are many though!)

They control the healthcare system and they use it to their advantage and it is truly sick and the more money thrown at them, the more they want. They control the school system as well and would try to instill in the children, their beliefs, right or wrong. I strongly disagree with this as you can imagine. I read about this stuff everyday in the news & online and it boils my blood to think the power they exert on the rest of the country.

So when you tell me... all they want is to be equal, I feel they surpassed that along time ago, some of us blue collar guys want some respect back. I know these are broad-sweeping accusations, but it involves a great number of like-minded people, all the same people who would call me a bigot. So for me to give my blessing to same sex marriage is against everything I believe.

I see the bad things done in the name of the church and they give a black eye to true Christians(I could be considered one of those at times.), but don't hate the church, they, like me were taught to believe homosexuality is wrong and they believe it. There are some who look to tarnish the church as well, right from the inside and they do not represent what a Christian is.

I hope this has shed some light on my last few posts and I hope this hasn't offended you, it wasn't intended that way.

[Oddman]

Leader,

Thank you. I now have a greater understanding of your position, and although I do not agree with it, at least I can understand better.

What has dawned on me is the possibility of an open dialog on both sides of the issue, or any issue for that matter. Much of my disdain for the church is how it was taught to me growing up in the Catholic school system. We would have nuns come in every Wednesday in elementary school who would teach us values that I can respect, and likely still hold to this day. But they also said things that irked me, even as a young child. One nun in particular. always invoked a sense of fear in us and, using Jews as an example, said that non Christians were bound for hell...no questions asked. Like you, I also realize that not all Christians feel this way, but there are many who quietly believe this to be true.

I appreciate the referencing of your cousin and I have to say that maybe you are right - being raised in rural Alberta might drastically affect the way one thinks about these kind of issues. I recently moved back to Toronto after spending six months in Saskatchewan and I couldn't believe the differences in people - a lot of which really shocked me to say the least. I don't know about you, but I feel that as I get older this country is more like three or four countries nestled in one giagantic border.

Anyway, I feel we are good examples of how the usual forum banter between two opposite viewpoints can be settled with maturity, and I look forward to more debates between my left and your right....I am not saying you're right you know, but you get the idea.

[Leader Circle]

Slav if you followed the whole conversation, you'd see it was meant to be a joke. I don't feel the need to explain to you, but I am not a good example of christian values. I just hate to see Bible bashers, trying to make their case for same sex marriage. I believe homosexuality is WRONG and I think the Bible agrees with me and if you have a problem with that, well.... too bad.

I do have a problem with that, I have a very big problem with that. You see the bible tells us all have sinned. And what you are doing is claiming that one group of sinners canot get married while allowing other sinners to get married. The bible is clear on the fact that God makes no differentiation in sins. God apparently sees one sin just as bad as the other, and if you commit one, you commit them all. You infact admit that you are not a good Christian, perhaps you should not be allowed to be married. Every time you sin according to God you commit homosexuality so becarefull.

When you attack homosexuals ability to get married based on the so called immorality of Homosexuality you become a hypocrit, who founds his beliefs on a double standard. I will attack such things and campaign against such things, because actions like those are intolerable. It is extending the powers of evil and tyrany to a level they should not be extended to, it is trampling on the liberty of your fellow Canadians. And this is nothing short of Immoral. I do not believe you can stand behind the bible and say it gives you the justification to be an imoral, hypocrit, who lives a life of double standards and helps perpetuate injustice and discrimination, that is intolerable. And If I don't like it? No, not tough I will campaign against it, I will argue against it, and I will not stand for it. The bible gives you no justification to ruin other peoples lives?????????????? WTF?, the bible has said that God wants humankind to choose to follow god. But when you get the government to force people to follow Gods morals, your are not only robbing people of their political liberties, but you are robbing people of their God given liberties. Who else do you want to steal Liberties from, who else do you want to persecute in the name of your religous text, Persecution in the name of religion needs to be removed from our society, I do not see a reason to reward such actions. You say homosexuality is wrong, I say you are in the wrong and I believe that anyone with an ounce of compassion or logic would understand that you do not have a religous or political leg to stand on when you deny gays the right to marry.

You talk about hatred, yet your post is chock full of hatred and distain for me and people like me.

Your post is also quite full of contradictions and I don't know where to begin.

I have never called myself a christian and don't represent the church the way it deserves it. As I told Oddman, I was raised on the Bible and was taught about the wrongs of homosexuality and I believe it. The fact that you HATE the Bible & people who support it, shows your intolerance and distain for Godly things. It seems you have more issues to deal with than my ignorance to things pertaining to homosexuality. If you misunderstood where I was headed when bantering with oddman, I am sorry if I offended you in the process.

You and I will disagree on this part and it is okay, because in the end, you have the upper hand. Same sex marriage is legal in Canada...you won!! Good luck to you, sorting out your hatred for traditional marriage.

[newbie]

I have never called myself a christian and don't represent the church the way it deserves it. As I told Oddman, I was raised on the Bible and was taught about the wrongs of homosexuality and I believe it.

So, you're obviously a believer in the Old Testament then. While you're condemning homosexuality, you might want to consider what else God had to say in Leviticus 20. Also consider Deuteronomy 21:21 about what to do with rebellious children. My point is one can cherry pick any Biblical passage to make an argument. And it amazes me some of us still insist on using a 2000 year old book to solve 21st century problems.

[Leader Circle]

I have never called myself a christian and don't represent the church the way it deserves it. As I told Oddman, I was raised on the Bible and was taught about the wrongs of homosexuality and I believe it.

So, you're obviously a believer in the Old Testament then. While you're condemning homosexuality, you might want to consider what else God had to say in Leviticus 20. Also consider Deuteronomy 21:21 about what to do with rebellious children. My point is one can cherry pick any Biblical passage to make an argument. And it amazes me some of us still insist on using a 2000 year old book to solve 21st century problems.

So I guess you're not a believer in the Bible or it's relevance to today?

You are right that people can take one verse of scripture and make whatever they want out of it. Many religions were spawned that way, even if they are based on just a few scriptures. I guess the task for someone seeking Christ is to find that religion that uses the whole Bible.

As far as Leviticus 20, it basically tells the evils of forbidden carnal sins, most of what is covered in the 10 commandments. I'm not sure the point you are trying to prove?? So much of the Bible I don't understand and I know that stoning someone today is not the way to handle these sins, but in it's time it was acceptable. Many wouldn't mind doing some of that to child molestors and I would find it very hard to stop them from doing that, even though it is not acceptable today.

[newbie]

I'm not sure the point you are trying to prove?? So much of the Bible I don't understand and I know that stoning someone today is not the way to handle these sins, but in it's time it was acceptable. Many wouldn't mind doing some of that to child molestors and I would find it very hard to stop them from doing that, even though it is not acceptable today.

That particular passage was used to demonstrate that the Mosaic Code or Law is unacceptable today, including the penalty for homosexuality. By using the bible to make one's case against homosexual activity, then one should be consistent and stone unruly children.

[MightyAC]

The sheer number of people that use the bible to justify their hatred astounds me.

A comedian once said that Christianity is a lot like the telephone game. It starts off with “Jesus loves you” and ends up “You must hate gays, jews, blacks, women and any member of an opposing sect”

I am not at all religious and for the most part I’m indifferent to it. However, it is hard to remain indifferent to such a vehicle of hate. Like Oddman tried to do, I often ask religious folk why they are so opposed to equality for homosexuals. Most often their opposition to same-sex marriage comes from the bible. They believe that God is against it. The idea that people could hate any group simply because it said to do so in a book is mind boggling but that seems to be the case.

It seems that Christians believe the text in the bible was directly inspired by a god. Again that is ridiculous to me but let’s go with that. Let’s say that a god spoke to some humans and they wrote down her words. At that time there were no printing presses. People had to copy the text by hand. The copies these educated people produced were then recopied by others. The original texts no longer exist and all we have now are copies of copies of copies, etc. However, some very old texts still exist. Historians have found examples from different time periods that show the texts weren’t simply copied but were in fact altered. The evidence shows that people took poetic license with the texts and exaggerated, altered and rewrote sections to support or discredit various religious movements at the time. Even if we believe that a god had inspired the original document it has long since become a very flawed human text. Many religious historians have discontinued their faith after researching this topic.

So now many people are using a flawed human document as a reason to hate other people. Like Mark Twain said “In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination.”

A good book on this topic is “Misquoting Jesus: The story of who changed the bible and why”

http://www.harpercollins.com/global_script...isbn=0060738170

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti.../601280384/1007

Blah blah blah blah.

Is any of this useful? NO! Another Bible hater who wants to find the meaning of life from tea leaves!

I do not agree with people who will use the Bible for their convenience or people who will use the translation argument for anything that does not suit their cause. Homosexuality is wrong according to the Bible and Sodom & Gommmorah is a fine example of that, I am sorry to be the one to tell you that and it really hangs a cloud over what you believe, but I believe the Bible not you.

I'm not using the Bible for any cause. I'm just pointing out that it has been proven that the Bible was continuously changed by humans to suit their purposes for hundreds of years. Since it is simply a flawed human text it would be foolish to use as the grounds to condemn any other religion, gender, race or sexual orientation.