Copper, Transit Workers & Bicycles

[August1991]

The skyrocketing prices of commodities are being blamed for a rash of copper roof thefts from Quebec City churches.

....

It's believed three men removed the 81-year-old metal from the St-Charles-de-Limoilou and St-Francois-d'Assise churches. Another church was also attacked, along with a former church that had been sold to a funeral home.

While the culprits may be able to sell the copper for a few hundred dollars, the repairs to the churches will total between $35,000 and $50,000, Angers said.

CTV

So, to make a few hundred bucks, a few thieves imposed costs of several thousand dollars on the rest of society (or at least Catholics).

[incidentally, the price of copper is in the $2 a kilo range which makes theft of all sorts of stuff profitable. There has been a spate of bronze historical plaque thefts in Montreal recently. People might start stealing statues.]

On to the transit workers:

Arterial roads were clotted for hours as the 700,000 people who ride with the Toronto Transit Commission each day found other means of transportation.

....

The walkout by 8,500 employees was prompted by a decision to move 22 cleaning staff from the day to the night shift without the union's consent. Heather Alden, the union's lawyer, argued TTC management had effectively ''locked out'' the employees by refusing to let them keep their old shifts.

She added union members with seniority had been assigned menial tasks during the shift restructuring.

''Our senior employees are not going to be cleaning bathrooms,'' Alden told the board.

National Post

So, to avoid having to clean toilets or work late, to avoid a small cost, a few hundred workers imposed horrendous costs on hundreds of thousands of other people.

Now on to the bicycles:

The federal government has rejected pleas from bike and barbecue manufacturers to put special duties on some imported products.

"After considering all of the information, it was determined that temporary protective tariffs simply wouldn't provide a competitive long-term solution in these two cases," Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said in a statement Monday.

Some retailers had previously argued against the special duties, claiming that they would simply help two inefficient Quebec companies.

But the Steelworkers Union, which represents workers at Procycle Inc. in Saint-Georges de Beauce, Que., said there are only 100 workers today, down from 500 a few years ago.

"We firmly believe that the decrease in the number of employees at Procycle Inc. is the result of the insufficient protective measures implemented over the past decade, as well as the major influx of bicycles and bicycle frames into Canada, especially from Asian countries such as China, Taiwan, India, Vietnam and Malaysia, at prices that are too low" the union website said.

CBC

So, to gain several thousand dollars for themselves, a few hundred workers in bicycle manufacturing plants in Quebec wanted to impose costs of millions on Canadian consumers.

The bicycle story is the good one in the bunch. The federal government took the right decision and chose not to impose the tariff.

Too many people in too many countries are poor because a small group of people, to gain a benefit for themselves, impose a much greater cost on everyone else.

[Guest Warwick Green]

The walkout by 8,500 employees was prompted by a decision to move 22 cleaning staff from the day to the night shift without the union's consent. Heather Alden, the union's lawyer, argued TTC management had effectively ''locked out'' the employees by refusing to let them keep their old shifts.

Don't you just love this argument? The TTC reorganized its shifts so the union has a right to engage in an illegal strike. And for this no doubt Ms. Alden is stiffing the union (or more correctly, its members) at something like 400 bucks an hour.

[geoffrey]

The skyrocketing prices of commodities are being blamed for a rash of copper roof thefts from Quebec City churches.

....

It's believed three men removed the 81-year-old metal from the St-Charles-de-Limoilou and St-Francois-d'Assise churches. Another church was also attacked, along with a former church that had been sold to a funeral home.

While the culprits may be able to sell the copper for a few hundred dollars, the repairs to the churches will total between $35,000 and $50,000, Angers said.

CTV

So, to make a few hundred bucks, a few thieves imposed costs of several thousand dollars on the rest of society (or at least Catholics).

[incidentally, the price of copper is in the $2 a kilo range which makes theft of all sorts of stuff profitable. There has been a spate of bronze historical plaque thefts in Montreal recently. People might start stealing statues.]

Speaking of this, some guy got killed stealing copper from a BC electrical substation last week as well. It's a major issue for the power transmission business, thefts have skyrocketed in recent months.

Apparently everyone is out for a little copper these days.

[lost&outofcontrol]

On to the transit workers:

Arterial roads were clotted for hours as the 700,000 people who ride with the Toronto Transit Commission each day found other means of transportation.

....

The walkout by 8,500 employees was prompted by a decision to move 22 cleaning staff from the day to the night shift without the union's consent. Heather Alden, the union's lawyer, argued TTC management had effectively ''locked out'' the employees by refusing to let them keep their old shifts.

She added union members with seniority had been assigned menial tasks during the shift restructuring.

''Our senior employees are not going to be cleaning bathrooms,'' Alden told the board.

National Post

So, to avoid having to clean toilets or work late, to avoid a small cost, a few hundred workers imposed horrendous costs on hundreds of thousands of other people.

I wonder how you would feel if your employer told you that you had to work the nights shifts instead of your day shift and there's nothing you can do about it?

Everytime I see people lamenting unions I think of this cartoon.

[Guest Warwick Green]

On to the transit workers:

Arterial roads were clotted for hours as the 700,000 people who ride with the Toronto Transit Commission each day found other means of transportation.

....

The walkout by 8,500 employees was prompted by a decision to move 22 cleaning staff from the day to the night shift without the union's consent. Heather Alden, the union's lawyer, argued TTC management had effectively ''locked out'' the employees by refusing to let them keep their old shifts.

She added union members with seniority had been assigned menial tasks during the shift restructuring.

''Our senior employees are not going to be cleaning bathrooms,'' Alden told the board.

National Post

So, to avoid having to clean toilets or work late, to avoid a small cost, a few hundred workers imposed horrendous costs on hundreds of thousands of other people.

I wonder how you would feel if your employer told you that you had to work the nights shifts instead of your day shift and there's nothing you can do about it?

Everytime I see people lamenting unions I think of this cartoon.

The union could have done what the law provides - file a grievance without stoppage of work.

[August1991]

I wonder how you would feel if your employer told you that you had to work the nights shifts instead of your day shift and there's nothing you can do about it?

I didn't take sides in this specific labour dispute.

I was merely pointing out that to gain a small benefit, one group of people (e.g. church roof thieves) can impose a much larger cost on other people (e.g. church goers). A society that allows this to happen frequently will soon be impoverished. That is simple common sense.

[lost&outofcontrol]

I didn't take sides in this specific labour dispute.

I will rephrase then, I wonder how *most people* would feel if *their* employers told *them* that *they* had to work the nights shifts instead of the day shift and that nothing could be done about it?

**edit*

Having said that, I think the union went on strike partially for the wrong reasons (I'm a believer in parecon.)

I was merely pointing out that to gain a small benefit, one group of people (e.g. church roof thieves) can impose a much larger cost on other people (e.g. church goers). A society that allows this to happen frequently will soon be impoverished. That is simple common sense.

I never commented on that although I do think this shows the bad side of a "private property society" but that's for another discussion.

[August1991]

I didn't take sides in this specific labour dispute.

I will rephrase then, I wonder how *most people* would feel if *their* employers told *them* that *they* had to work the nights shifts instead of the day shift and that nothing could be done about it?

I was merely pointing out that to gain a small benefit, one group of people (e.g. church roof thieves) can impose a much larger cost on other people (e.g. church goers). A society that allows this to happen frequently will soon be impoverished. That is simple common sense.

I never commented on that although I do think this shows the bad side of a "private property society" but that's for another discussion.

It's not for another discussion. The transit workers' union in Toronto apparently has the power to impose a tremendous cost on other people in order to ensure a few of its members have a small gain.

Around the world, there are many poor countries and I would argue that the main reason for their poverty is that a small group, to gain an advantage for themselves, can impose a much greater cost on everyone else. My three examples above make plain how this can happen. Fortunately, in the case of the bicycle tariffs, the small group was stopped.

BTW, Warwick Green noted above that the union could have filed a grievance.

[lost&outofcontrol]

It's not for another discussion. The transit workers' union in Toronto apparently has the power to impose a tremendous cost on other people in order to ensure a few of its members have a small gain.

I meant the cause of crime is private property in the case of the copper getting stolen.

Around the world, there are many poor countries and I would argue that the main reason for their poverty is that a small group, to gain an advantage for themselves, can impose a much greater cost on everyone else. My three examples above make plain how this can happen. Fortunately, in the case of the bicycle tariffs, the small group was stopped.

Everywhere around the world, poverty is cause by the concentration of capital (hence power and influence) in the hands of the few. Tariffs and/or subsidies are imposed everywhere, you only need a good army of lobbies to get them. Why should our US counterparts have them and not us? Isn't free trade all about leveling the playing field and comparative advantage?

BTW, Warwick Green noted above that the union could have filed a grievance.

I agree that the strike could have been averted.

[Guest Warwick Green]

BTW, Warwick Green noted above that the union could have filed a grievance.

I agree that the strike could have been averted.

I did and furthermore if the union had felt the employer's action was a deliberate violation of the CBA it could have asked for an emergency cease-and-desist order from the OLRB, again without stoppage of work.

[lost&outofcontrol]

I did and furthermore if the union had felt the employer's action was a deliberate violation of the CBA it could have asked for an emergency cease-and-desist order from the OLRB, again without stoppage of work.

I disagree with the constraints imposed by the system but within the structure itself I agree with your conclusion. I hope that made sense.

[BHS]

I meant the cause of crime is private property in the case of the copper getting stolen.

What on earth are you talking about? Are you saying private property causes theft? Isn't that like saying beauty causes jealousy? If that's your opinion, perhaps the world could be made a better place by disfiguring beautiful people.

Only one of the examples August provided was of copper being stolen from private property. Is theft of public property not a crime?

Everywhere around the world, poverty is cause by the concentration of capital (hence power and influence) in the hands of the few.

What you're saying here is that wealth is zero-sum: if one person is made wealthy, it is only because many others have been rendered poor in the process. This is provably untrue, and one of the most popular canards repeated by socialists who don't understand basic economics.

Briefly: your wealth exists because other people place value on the things you possess (real property, personal property, specialized skills, etc.) that make you wealthy. In other words, skills and possesions do not have intrinsic value as concerns wealth creation. If other people did not value your skills and possessions you would not have any wealth. The value of possessions is arbitrary and transitory over time, such that what is valuable today might become valueless tomorrow and vice versa. That some people have more possessions or skills that others is not the point. Wealth creation is circular in nature, such that having wealth affords more opportunities to accrue further wealth. But the rich getting richer cannot be said to occur soley at the cost of the poor becoming poorer. That theft and abuse of power are methods for accumulating the material goods that may constitute wealth does not mean that wealth can only be accumulated by this method, or even that this is the primary way in which wealth is generated. Again, stealing leads to zero wealth creation if the property stolen is of no value to outside parties.

A wealthy society is wealthy because it's people both inside and outside of that society place a higher premium on the holdings and labour of members of that society than those outside of that society, and NOT because that society has "stolen" wealth from outsiders.

The stock market is a good example of the nature of wealth creation. The fiscal value of stocks is established directly on an ongoing basis by the value that investors assume for a given company. Enormous amouts of value can be created and lost in a single session based on nothing more than arbitrary assumptions.

Wealth creation is also directly analogus to law creation. Both rely on a strong civil society to succeed. A large portion of society must follow the assumption that it is to their own individual benefit to recognize the value that others place on i) obeying laws and ii) assigning broadly recognized fiscal value to particular holdings and skills. Without those recognitions laws and wealth cease to have meaning within that society.

Tariffs and/or subsidies [/url] are imposed everywhere, you only need a good army of lobbies to get them. Why should our US counterparts have them and not us? Isn't free trade all about leveling the playing field and comparative advantage?

That the US imposes tarriffs on steel products is contrary to NAFTA. It is wrong of them to do so. It is debatable whether we should play this game as well, but doing so on a regular basis means scrapping NAFTA in practice.

[lost&outofcontrol]

What on earth are you talking about?

If you want a discussion on this topic, I suggest we create a new thread.

Tariffs and/or subsidies are imposed everywhere, you only need a good army of lobbies to get them. Why should our US counterparts have them and not us? Isn't free trade all about leveling the playing field and comparative advantage?

That the US imposes tarriffs on steel products is contrary to NAFTA. It is wrong of them to do so. It is debatable whether we should play this game as well, but doing so on a regular basis means scrapping NAFTA in practice.

I'm all for. Heck, the majority of Canadians were against it in '88 and we still ended up with it.

[August1991]

Everywhere around the world, poverty is cause by the concentration of capital (hence power and influence) in the hands of the few.

What you're saying here is that wealth is zero-sum: if one person is made wealthy, it is only because many others have been rendered poor in the process. This is provably untrue, and one of the most popular canards repeated by socialists who don't understand basic economics.

The church roof itself example is a perfect proof of the non-zero sum nature of life. The thieves got a few hundred dollars, but society lost several thousands. That's non zero-sum.

Tariffs and/or subsidies are imposed everywhere, you only need a good army of lobbies to get them. Why should our US counterparts have them and not us? Isn't free trade all about leveling the playing field and comparative advantage?

That the US imposes tarriffs on steel products is contrary to NAFTA. It is wrong of them to do so. It is debatable whether we should play this game as well, but doing so on a regular basis means scrapping NAFTA in practice.

A US steel tariff, and the proposed Canadian bicycle tariff, are exactly identical to the church roof (and the transit workers).

US steel producers wanted a gain for themselves, and to give it to them, the US government (Bush Jnr) imposed a much greater cost on US society at large by imposing an import duty on foreign steel. Our own federal government thankfully didn't grant a similar request of Quebec bicycle producers.

[lost&outofcontrol]

US steel producers wanted a gain for themselves, and to give it to them, the US government (Bush Jnr) imposed a much greater cost on US society at large by imposing an import duty on foreign steel.

Quick question, would the US steel producers be able to survive without the import duties in the face of cheap Korean and Chinese steel? Aren't the import duties just to level the playing field? (50 cents an hour in China vs. x$ in the U.S.)

[August1991]

Quick question, would the US steel producers be able to survive without the import duties in the face of cheap Korean and Chinese steel? Aren't the import duties just to level the playing field? (50 cents an hour in China vs. x$ in the U.S.)

From what I know of the industry, some would survive and some wouldn't. I understand that new technology has made micro steel producers profitable and there are markets for specialty steel. Keep in mind too that the largest consumer of steel is the auto industry and cars now require less an ddifferent types of steel.

With all that said, Bush Jnr needed the votes in Ohio (where there are many steel producers) and so he allowed them to go and take the roof off the church. You don't make a country rich that way but if you're a politician, you'll get re-elected. Ohio was a critical state in 2004.

[geoffrey]

US steel producers wanted a gain for themselves, and to give it to them, the US government (Bush Jnr) imposed a much greater cost on US society at large by imposing an import duty on foreign steel.

Quick question, would the US steel producers be able to survive without the import duties in the face of cheap Korean and Chinese steel? Aren't the import duties just to level the playing field? (50 cents an hour in China vs. x$ in the U.S.)

The efficent companies would survive and the inefficient ones die off.

You need to get past seeing the world with borders, free trade has ended that. It doesn't matter where the goods are, if they are cheaper, they will win out. We are seeing that with the Asian automakers, the North American ones that have been on corporate welfare for decades can't compete anymore, and they are slowly dying out.

America is good at some things, China at others. Free trade lets both countries play to their strengths.

[Riverwind]

America is good at some things, China at others. Free trade lets both countries play to their strengths.

However, China is not free trader. They manipulate their currency an subsidize their industry with cheap oil and low-zero cost loans.

[geoffrey]

America is good at some things, China at others. Free trade lets both countries play to their strengths.

However, China is not free trader. They manipulate their currency an subsidize their industry with cheap oil and low-zero cost loans.

Do you actually think we don't manipulate our currency? We do all the time, as do the Americans. There is talk right now that Dodge will deal with some higher inflation (hurting Alberta, while helping Ontario of course) to lower our currency to make it easier on Ontario manufacturing companies at the expense of increasing Alberta's unsustainable boom.

We have plenty of zero cost loans too, or programs that affect them. Oil sands companies don't pay royalties (ok they do, 1%) until they've paid off their entire original capital expenditure! Good example right there. And do you not think these lower financing costs make our oil cheaper?

How long have we bailed out GM with tax breaks and subsidizes? Same idea here.

[Riverwind]

Do you actually think we don't manipulate our currency? We do all the time, as do the Americans. There is talk right now that Dodge will deal with some higher inflation (hurting Alberta, while helping Ontario of course) to lower our currency to make it easier on Ontario manufacturing companies at the expense of increasing Alberta's unsustainable boom.

Apples and oranges. The BOC has intervened in the currency markets in the past without success and is not likely to try again - no matter what the pundits say. China, on the other hand, pegs it currency to the US dollar.

Furthermore, Canadians have to buy oil at the market rate - in China the Chinese gov't pays 40% of the cost.

Lastly, low cost loans do exist in Canada but they are few and fair between. In China the banking system is unstable because there are so many non-performing loans on the books (one of the excuses China uses to justify its currency peg).

It is very naive to say that China is 'free trader' that simply out competes Canadian industry.

[August1991]

America is good at some things, China at others. Free trade lets both countries play to their strengths.

However, China is not free trader. They manipulate their currency an subsidize their industry with cheap oil and low-zero cost loans.

Should we care whether the Chinese manipulate their currency or subsidize their oil price? Does it matter?

Whatever China does, Canada will be poorer if it allows a few Canadians to gain more for themselves while other Canadians suffer greater costs. That's common sense. The Quebec copper church roof, Toronto transit and Beauce bicycle examples above illustrate the point.

Thankfully, the federal government said no to the bicycle producers.

[Charles Anthony]

Should we care whether the Chinese manipulate their currency or subsidize their oil price? Does it matter?

No. We should not care. That is their problem. It does not matter to us.

I am putting this here.

$350G Ukrainian statue stolen

by Brian Gray

A 10-foot bronze portion of a statue weighing about 2 tons has vanished, leaving an Oakville plot of land without its tribute to a Ukrainian poet.

---

Gregorovich said the thieves left the ladder they used to climb atop a 10-foot pedestal where they sawed off the Shevchenko statue at the ankles.

---

Unveiled in 1951, the statue commemorates the 60th anniversary of Ukrainian immigration to Canada.

TorontoSun.com

What confused me about this crime was that the figure was sawed off at the ankles. I can understand somebody stealing a piece art but I do not understand defacing art. Clearly this person was not interested in the statue for its artistic merit. I have been racking my brains trying to figure out why this crime was committed.

I just happened to find this thread and it likely provides the answer. Unfortunately, I doubt this statue CAN be recovered. It has probably already been melted down.

[geoffrey]

Interesting time to post such a thing Charles...

Another related story:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

These copper thiefs keep killing themselves, and it's costly to power companies. In the report we got at the office, they had an Quebec police officer saying "We believe it to be a white male." So badly burned they couldn't tell.

Ouch.

What people will do for quick buck. I honestly couldn't imagine getting the idea to steal power lines.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey,

"We believe it to be a white male." So badly burned they couldn't tell.

Ouch.

Darwin strikes again. I think I would try to pull off a diamond heist or something, rather than steal live power lines.

Evidently there is a television show about some dumb criminals, called 'Trailer Park Boys'. A customer of mine asked an aquaintance (who was a cop) if people could really be that dumb. His reply? "Oh yes, we deal with people just like that on a regular basis." Scarios.

[geoffrey]

Exactly. There seems to be hundreds of much easier things to steal than a live high voltage line.