Six Nations occupation at Caledonia

[geoffrey]

It's ghettoisation at its finest. Give someone a basic living allowance and they will never work.

Only when all Canadians have the same rights will people truly succeed and fail on their own merits. Instead, we have welfare with which the government has kept groups, like the Indians, like the Atlantic Canadians, intentionally poor. I can't see it any other way. If people are forced to work or not eat, they will work.

Your ignoring the main issue though Michael, or I've missed your statement on this part of the conflict. Why are we allowing a group to break the law in Canada?

They should all be arrested and the barricades broken up, they are trespassing.

[Michael Hardner]

It's ghettoisation at its finest. Give someone a basic living allowance and they will never work.

That's not exactly true. From a study I read, most welfare users aren't permanent users. But your point is taken. Permanent assistance doesn't motivate people with deep seeded problems to move on.

Only when all Canadians have the same rights will people truly succeed and fail on their own merits. Instead, we have welfare with which the government has kept groups, like the Indians, like the Atlantic Canadians, intentionally poor. I can't see it any other way. If people are forced to work or not eat, they will work.

I agree with you up until the point where you want to take the crutch away completely.

Actually, the crutch analogy might be apt here. Crutches are supposed to be used for the term of an injury. What happens if a small percentage of people refuse to stop using them ? Do we get rid of crutches altogether.

So I guess I agree with your assessment of the problem, but the solution might be more nuanced than that.

I knew two able bodied males who were on welfare, and they were glad when they were cut off - it allowed them to get on with their lives. So there's something to be said for your solution in some cases, but other situations need to be handled differently.

One way to handle it might be to pay more attention to these people - to the point where they become aware of the burden they're putting on society. Have case workers put their lives under a microscope to find out what is wrong. Those who aren't totally helpless might eventually resent that and move on. ( I'm blue skying here. )

Your ignoring the main issue though Michael, or I've missed your statement on this part of the conflict. Why are we allowing a group to break the law in Canada?

I don't think I did ignore that. I addressed it earlier in the thread I believe when I talked about how police handle protestors.

They should all be arrested and the barricades broken up, they are trespassing.

As I indicated, the political ramifications aren't likely to be borne by anyone currently in office.

[Renegade]

I agree with you up until the point where you want to take the crutch away completely.

Actually, the crutch analogy might be apt here. Crutches are supposed to be used for the term of an injury. What happens if a small percentage of people refuse to stop using them ? Do we get rid of crutches altogether.

It's not that the crutch is taken away. The question is why have a special set of crutches based upon race? Surely there are people in society who have the same need to get back up on their feet. We already have social programs which address that. Why have a special set of benefits which only natives are entitled to?

As I indicated, the political ramifications aren't likely to be borne by anyone currently in office.

In your response you've indicated that all protest groups needed to be treated with care. Do you recognize that when the protest group are natives that the defferential treatment goes beyond what is provided to other groups? If it were a funamentalist Moslem organization behaving in the same fashion as Six Nations, the population at large would be demanding their heads. Should justice be blind or racist?

[Argus]

I think a writer for the globe and mail put it best just the other day. "You have a 20 year old drop out with limited education prospects and he is faced with two decisions: Wear steel toed boots and work in a warehouse for $11 an hour, or wear ancestrial warrior gowns and fight for the cause of your tradition."

While cashing his monthly welfare cheques? What's wrong with $11hr to start? I can see some elitist Globe writer thinking that's the pits, but I've worked for a lot less. And you know, until you do the $11hr job you don't get the $14hr job, and until you do that you don't get the $19hr job. Understand?

The cause of your tradition? What kind of crap is that? Should I have put on a kilt and played a bagpipe rather than take a lousy night job doing data entry?

The solution to these constant territorial debates lie in early education. We must halt this generational drift, this apathy towards making something of yourself.

You make it sound like we don't provide them with schools and teachers and free education right up through university.

[margrace]

It's ghettoisation at its finest. Give someone a basic living allowance and they will never work.

That's not exactly true. From a study I read, most welfare users aren't permanent users. But your point is taken. Permanent assistance doesn't motivate people with deep seeded problems to move on.

Only when all Canadians have the same rights will people truly succeed and fail on their own merits. Instead, we have welfare with which the government has kept groups, like the Indians, like the Atlantic Canadians, intentionally poor. I can't see it any other way. If people are forced to work or not eat, they will work.

I agree with you up until the point where you want to take the crutch away completely.

Actually, the crutch analogy might be apt here. Crutches are supposed to be used for the term of an injury. What happens if a small percentage of people refuse to stop using them ? Do we get rid of crutches altogether.

So I guess I agree with your assessment of the problem, but the solution might be more nuanced than that.

I knew two able bodied males who were on welfare, and they were glad when they were cut off - it allowed them to get on with their lives. So there's something to be said for your solution in some cases, but other situations need to be handled differently.

One way to handle it might be to pay more attention to these people - to the point where they become aware of the burden they're putting on society. Have case workers put their lives under a microscope to find out what is wrong. Those who aren't totally helpless might eventually resent that and move on. ( I'm blue skying here. )

Your ignoring the main issue though Michael, or I've missed your statement on this part of the conflict. Why are we allowing a group to break the law in Canada?

I don't think I did ignore that. I addressed it earlier in the thread I believe when I talked about how police handle protestors.

They should all be arrested and the barricades broken up, they are trespassing.

As I indicated, the political ramifications aren't likely to be borne by anyone currently in office.

Yep get the guys out there with their guns and shoot a few more, that will really help. We have three groups of people on this conintent. The Natives who were here first and believed the land belonged to everyone and were quite happy with their hunting.

The Black people who were loaded onto boats like cattle and forced to come to North American and have litterally been slaves ever since.

And then the mighty white man, fleeing from starvation and lack of rights in their own lands because the landlords owned everything and treated them as slaves and hung them for stealing a loaf of bread for their hungry children.

So they came here and did exactly the same thing, they drove the Natives off their hunting grounds killed the game the lived on, remember the buffalo, got rid of a lot of them by giving them gifts of pieces of blankets infected with smallpox. Then they brought in the black people to do the work they didn't want to do. Yes we are a mighty fine bunch of people. We certainly came here and improved things.

[geoffrey]

They sure don't act like the land belongs to everyone when they illegal occupy it.

And they were here first? Boohoo, so were the French before the English government was founded. I hope your willing to give me all full benefits because my ancestors were here before. I don't want to pay for anything, and I claim all the land of Quebec, the Maritimes and parts of Ontario for my corrupt, monarchy type society ok? And I refuse the government to look over my finances which they provide too!!

They were here first is the worst argument ever for 'native' rights.

If you don't believe we've improved things, I suggest you go to a reservation, take away all manufactured possesions and tell them to actually live their traditional life if they believe they have a right to it. So live in huts, tipis, longhouses, hunt strictly for their food (we will even restock their animal herds so they can hunt!) and when winter comes and half their population dies off, we will turn them away from the hospitals. Because hey, we don't improve things. We haven't given them everything free of charge.

That is what your saying margrace, our development has caused all their problems. I disagree. Their disability with conforming to modern standards like the rest of the world has is the problem.

Do you think its reasonable for us to all have stayed in Europe and just let the Natives be over here?

I'm all for one solution or the other. No special native rights. Or reservations that don't get a dollar of our money.

Live like the people they were 300 years ago or live like Canadians. They can't have it both ways.

I have no problem with cops shooting those that attack them. One O.P.P. officer last week was hit in the head with a bag of rocks because he asked them to leave and stop breaking the law. Did we shoot them? No.

Let's forceably remove them, put them back on their free land, and tell them they don't get anymore money. If they try another stunt, jail them all, or jail them on their reserve.

No more patience for these idiots that think they are entitled to Canadian lifestyles and benefits while living in a manner that ended for the rest of the world hundreds of years ago. They have no respect for the law, no respect for Canada. So in turn, I have no respect for them.

Again, adapt or go live like Indians. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[lost&outofcontrol]

About the idea that the Indian's were 'cheated' out of their lands... well, Indians didn't have land ownership rights before, so I don't see how they get them now. Are they a traditional people? If so, act like it. Stop asking for my money to fund their lifestyle. Live off the land in tipi's, longhouses, whatever, eatting what they hunt and catch. If they starve one winter, tough, that is their traditional way of life.

How can you live off the land when you are stuck on the smallest/worst piece of land around?

And they were here first? Boohoo, so were the French before the English government was founded.

The French lost all their North American possessions(almost all) in wars, the Indians were made promises that were not kept and have been getting screwed ever since.

That is what your saying margrace, our development has caused all their problems. I disagree. Their disability with conforming to modern standards like the rest of the world has is the problem

Why should they? Why is our version of society the correct one? A very ethnocentric way of thinking...

... it's time they grew up and became part of Canada.

You would fit right into Nazi Germany in the late 30's, They're different, assimilate or get out.

[Renegade]

How can you live off the land when you are stuck on the smallest/worst piece of land around?

Who says they are stuck? Do they not have the right to work in any area either on or off the reservation?

The French lost all their North American possessions(almost all) in wars, the Indians were made promises that were not kept and have been getting screwed ever since.

You can't go pointing to historical incidients for ever. Should the English sue the Italians for benefits because the Romans occupied the British Isles? As has been pointed out historically land transfers take place all the time whether just or unjust. Natives need to adjust to the current condition and get over this obsession of historical injustices. Or maybe it's not just the natives, it's the socialists in our midst who cater to this nonsense.

BTW, if all the benefits that natives gets is screwing them, please screw me the same way.

Why is our version of society the correct one? A very ethnocentric way of thinking...

No one is obliging them to live in our version of society. They can create their own version but without our financial support. If they want our financial support they need to accept it in our context of society.

[geoffrey]

No one is obliging them to live in our version of society. They can create their own version but without our financial support. If they want our financial support they need to accept it in our context of society.

Exactly.

If they want to be part of Canada, start living in our society.

If they want to be 500A.D. hunter-gatherer people, we'll give you Wood Buffalo Park or something to frolic around. Without a dime of Canadian money, without any Canadian institutions like Health Care or schools.

We have no obligation to anyone that doesn't want to be part of our society.

[seabee]

Indians don't pay taxes because according to federal law, they are minors; their signatures are legally worthless.

[geoffrey]

Indians don't pay taxes because according to federal law, they are minors; their signatures are legally worthless.

Even minors pay taxes in Canada. Funny how our hardworking students and young people pay more than Indians that just collect the fruits of their labour.

[Renegade]

Indians don't pay taxes because according to federal law, they are minors; their signatures are legally worthless.

Not completely true. They only don't pay taxes on on the work they do on reserves or reserve-based businesses:

In general, aboriginals pay taxes just like other people in Canada. However, there are exemptions under the Indian Act. The act says that the "personal property of an Indian or a band situated on a reserve" is tax exempt. Métis and Inuit are not eligible for this exemption.

The act says that a Status Indian working on a reserve is exempt from income taxes. However, there is a complicated formula involved here – the location of the duties and residence of the employee and employer must be taken into consideration.

And Status Indians do not generally pay the federal goods and services tax or provincial sales tax if they buy something on a reserve or if it is destined for a reserve.

link

[quinton]

The whole point is that there should not be a new 250 unit housing development in an already overpopulated southern Ontario.

It is morally wrong in my opinion for humans to expand indefinitely taking more than their share of the planet's resources away from all other living things.

[geoffrey]

The whole point is that there should not be a new 250 unit housing development in an already overpopulated southern Ontario.

It is morally wrong in my opinion for humans to expand indefinitely taking more than their share of the planet's resources away from all other living things.

Again, where are we to live? In caves?

[scribblet]

The whole point is that there should not be a new 250 unit housing development in an already overpopulated southern Ontario.

It is morally wrong in my opinion for humans to expand indefinitely taking more than their share of the planet's resources away from all other living things.

Well gee, why don't we all just curl up and die. I agree there is an over population problem, but I'm not going back to living in a cave either.

http://citizensofcaledonia.ca/ check this out, gives picture and details.

Good website here with information on this native terrorisim.

We have a rather romantized vision of what natives where and are, they are no more

Part of the problem is that reasonable, sensible, discussion on native issues are almost always interpreted as racist or bigoted, which does the job of stiffling debate.

Indians deserve to be treated equally given the same rights and obligations Treaties signed two hundres years ago have little relevance to today, despite the Supreme Court.

To actually presume that aboriginals cab return, to a life their ancestors once lived is just plain silly. Few Indians today live, or could live, as their ancestors did. Heck, even the term "First Nations" is rhetoric No people have built in right to anything simply and only because they were somewhere first.

[geoffrey]

Well, they can start by paying for our bridge, I'm sure they have plenty of our money stashed somewhere.

April 28/06

Funding to Replace Bridge Annouced Today In Local Paper

"One day after it was burned during a native protest, the federal government has announced it will replace the Stirling St. Railway Overhead bridge." Projected cost $1,274,350 - Government investment $424,783.00

There is pictures of the Indians burning down the bridge from the website from the previous post. They should all be jailed for maximum sentences for arson and their band should pay the complete cost of rebuilding the bridge.

Actually, make the Indians rebuild our bridge. Obviously they don't work anyways, they have been sitting on this protest line for weeks.

[Renegade]

The whole point is that there should not be a new 250 unit housing development in an already overpopulated southern Ontario.

It is morally wrong in my opinion for humans to expand indefinitely taking more than their share of the planet's resources away from all other living things.

While I agree with you regarding overpopulation, it is not the point at all. No one except the builders and workers give a damn they are creating new housing units. What has got people up in arms is that once people move in, it makes it much harder to enforce land claims whether right or wrong.

[scribblet]

Well, they can start by paying for our bridge, I'm sure they have plenty of our money stashed somewhere.

April 28/06

Funding to Replace Bridge Annouced Today In Local Paper

"One day after it was burned during a native protest, the federal government has announced it will replace the Stirling St. Railway Overhead bridge." Projected cost $1,274,350 - Government investment $424,783.00

There is pictures of the Indians burning down the bridge from the website from the previous post. They should all be jailed for maximum sentences for arson and their band should pay the complete cost of rebuilding the bridge.

Actually, make the Indians rebuild our bridge. Obviously they don't work anyways, they have been sitting on this protest line for weeks.

Agreed! but guess what, that website has been shutdown due to harassment and intimidation. Didn't take long did it for those who don't believe in equality for all and freedom of speech to shut down opinion because they didn't want the truth told.

Did anyone keep a copy of the .pdf on the site, I didn't save it, darn it.

[Argus]

The whole point is that there should not be a new 250 unit housing development in an already overpopulated southern Ontario.

It is morally wrong in my opinion for humans to expand indefinitely taking more than their share of the planet's resources away from all other living things.

We're bringing in a quarter of a million immigrants every year. Where do you want to put them? The Yukon?

[scribblet]

www.smalldeadanimals.com has the .pdf files from the Caledonia.ca site and http://www.dustmybroom.com/?p=3548 has info. on this:

NON-ABORIGINAL GROUPS DECLARE SUPPORT. CHECK OUT SOME SAMPLES FROM THE LIST. THE GAME OF FOOTSIE WITH RADICAL ANTISEMITES CONTINUES***********:

Al-Awda (Palestinian Right of Return) Coalition-Vancouver

Canada Palestine Association

Palestine Community Centre

Palestine Solidarity Group

Palestinian Arab Women’s Association

Voice of Palestine-Vancouver

Iranian Federation of Refugees

[Drea]

www.smalldeadanimals.com has the .pdf files from the Caledonia.ca site and http://www.dustmybroom.com/?p=3548 has info. on this:

NON-ABORIGINAL GROUPS DECLARE SUPPORT. CHECK OUT SOME SAMPLES FROM THE LIST. THE GAME OF FOOTSIE WITH RADICAL ANTISEMITES CONTINUES***********:

Al-Awda (Palestinian Right of Return) Coalition-Vancouver

Canada Palestine Association

Palestine Community Centre

Palestine Solidarity Group

Palestinian Arab Women’s Association

Voice of Palestine-Vancouver

Iranian Federation of Refugees

My husband met a couple from Isreal. They said that our "Indian problem" is similar to their "Palestinian problem".

NOT!

Not one single native person has ever blown themselves or other people up.

On that note... I do not agree with "reserves" in this day and age. They simply encourage the "bad" culture of laziness and personal "unacountability". How can a young native person growing up on a reserve be expected to grow up with any self esteem at all? By being segregated on a "reserve" he is being told that he is not "worthy". How can he grow up with any sense of accomplishment when the govt has provided everything for his family? How can he grow up with a work ethic in this situation?

I know many many natives who do not live on reserves who are very successful. I say tear up all those old "treaties" and let the people be free to work and live just like everyone else. Yah want land? Save up and buy it, just like the rest of us.

[geoffrey]

Good post Drea. You touch on that very important concept. Keeping them on reserves stunts their ability to ever be productive members of society.

Segregation didn't do alot of good for Blacks in the South, so why are we doing it to Indians?

[Temagami Scourge]

On that note... I do not agree with "reserves" in this day and age. They simply encourage the "bad" culture of laziness and personal "unacountability". How can a young native person growing up on a reserve be expected to grow up with any self esteem at all? By being segregated on a "reserve" he is being told that he is not "worthy". How can he grow up with any sense of accomplishment when the govt has provided everything for his family? How can he grow up with a work ethic in this situation?

I know many many natives who do not live on reserves who are very successful. I say tear up all those old "treaties" and let the people be free to work and live just like everyone else. Yah want land? Save up and buy it, just like the rest of us.

Drea: I agree with everything you said about israelis and Palestinians, and then you dropped the ball with the rest.

I'm one of those off-reserve, tax-paying Natives who can't stand seeing posts like your that assume that people on reserves are lazy. I live in the GTA and I see alot of humans walking around here being a waste of skin, so I can't see how its only Natives on reserves who have problems.

Secondly, those treaties you want to tear up are Canadaian law. The whole basis behind the treaties was for the Crown to provide medical care, housing and education to the Indians, along with a recognized plot of land that they would have control over, in exchange for Canada.

If you want to abrogate the treaties, then its only right and proper to give the land back.

However, I don't think Canada and Canadians got the worse of the deal. I don't even think the Indians got the aorse of the deal until the government began to single-handedly alter the Indian Act to suit their needs...without a speck of input from the Indians themselves!

Ahhhhh! Good ol' Canadian democracy.

I also don't think there'd be an issue on most reserves if the feds bothered to live up to their agreements..but no one here thinks of actually demanding the Feds do anything other than sending the army after the Natives.

[Temagami Scourge]

I'm surprised no one here is aware of how drunk the Caledonians have been during their rallies. It appears that the anti-protest protests bring out the underbelly of Caledonia, and all the white welfare bums get a belly-full of liquid courage before going down to the barricades to call the Natives "wagon-burners" and "timber-niggers" from a distance.

The funny part is that I see other posters like Scribblet try to elicit support from John and Jane Canuck like the Caledonians are upstanding citizens!

Hell...they are an unending embarrassment to the province and all taxpayers like myself!

which brings up the amusing point that I've spen the past two weekends going to Six Nations to take a turn on the barricades with my Nadoway brothers and sisters. fortunately, I pay tax for living off reserve, so it is my tax-paying right to protest against the police whose salaries I pay with my taxes!

Oh the craziness of it all!

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey,

Keeping them on reserves stunts their ability to ever be productive members of society.

Who is to say our society is the more desirable one to join? Besides, I have been on many reserves, and seen a great level of industriousness from a lot of the 'Originals'. Some very well-off farmers live on reserve.

Drea,

If you want to abrogate the treaties, then its only right and proper to give the land back.

Do you like apples? How would you like 'them apples'? The 'Originals' could actually show the rest of us how to live in a country without destroying it, and everything would be free, provided you had the 'spiritual and moral' gumption to respect it.