Six Nations occupation at Caledonia

[Renegade]

I'm sorry the "Native People" were dispossessed by my ancestors. But I refuse to buy into this all-to-pervasive "white guilt" complex I'm supposed to have. I won't spend one second of my time in pointless hand-wringing over something that happened before I was born. The reason this is still an issue today is the incompetence of previous governments in not disposing of these "land claims" with one simple word - NO.

I strongly agree. If the government spent less time catering to this sense of entitlement to land claims and special treatment then at some point natives themselves would get over it and get on with their lives. In my view, they should have been intergrated into society a long time ago, much as immigrants are. The gettos which have resulted have been a breeding ground for attitudes which precipitate confrontations such as this. Its time they grew up and joined the real world that the rest of us have to live in.

[Riverwind]

The gettos which have resulted have been a breeding ground for attitudes which precipitate confrontations such as this. Its time they grew up and joined the real world that the rest of us have to live in.

Japanese immigrants had all of their possessions stolen by the gov't and were forced to relocate and built new lives. You don't see grandchildren of Japanese immigrants living on welfare and blaming their problems on the Canadian gov't for injustices committed in the past.

[Michael Hardner]

Rene:

The law is only just when it applies uniformly to everyone.

That sounds good in theory but in fact it doesn't happen. The law will treat a drunk person differently than a sober person, a homeless person different than somebody in a suit. When it comes to crowds, they have to be very careful not to incite, to diffuse.

I'm sorry the "Native People" were dispossessed by my ancestors. But I refuse to buy into this all-to-pervasive "white guilt" complex I'm supposed to have. I won't spend one second of my time in pointless hand-wringing over something that happened before I was born. The reason this is still an issue today is the incompetence of previous governments in not disposing of these "land claims" with one simple word - NO.

It's not like that idea hasn't been tried before. Your approach would lead to strife but it sounds like you're prepared for that. Is the rest of the country as prepared as you ? I wonder.

[Michael Hardner]

River:

Japanese immigrants had all of their possessions stolen by the gov't and were forced to relocate and built new lives. You don't see grandchildren of Japanese immigrants living on welfare and blaming their problems on the Canadian gov't for injustices committed in the past.

The government paid them off for their troubles, though. The cultural differences between these two situations are numerous and large. On the one hand you have a preindustrial society that was supplanted and dispersed by European society, on the other you have willful immigrants who came here to prosper.

[Renegade]

That sounds good in theory but in fact it doesn't happen. The law will treat a drunk person differently than a sober person, a homeless person different than somebody in a suit. When it comes to crowds, they have to be very careful not to incite, to diffuse.

I would agree if what were talking about are the right tatics the OPP should employ in order to enforce the order. (ie what is the best way to get them out?) but except for the botched raid, there doesn't seem to be very much in the way of intent either. Do you even agree that the intent of the OPP should be to enforce the order?

Here's some ideas on how even without raiding the place they can speed up resolution:

1. Blockade the subdivision. Cut off the protesters food and water supply.

2. Charge everyone occupying the place with trespassing. They would need to appear in court to fight it or be found guilty. Modify welfare/EI rules so that anyone violating the law, gets benefits cut off.

[Michael Hardner]

Do you even agree that the intent of the OPP should be to enforce the order?

It should be, until the point at which the nature of the operation changes.

[Leafless]

Renegade

You wrote- " If the government spent less time catering to this sense of entitlement to land claims and special treatment then at some point the Natives would get over it and get on with their lives."

What are you talking about!

The federal government did a lot more that Cater to this sense of entitlement they wrote it into the Constitution primarily for Quebec as well as Aboriginals under the Charter of Rights and Fredoms.

Until this Charter is reworked Canadians will be held hostage to many undemocratic dicriminatory demands at the expense of Canadian tax payers including the exclusion of normal rights associated with law and order.

Sheesh, I never voted Liberal ...did YOU??

[Argus]

The land belongs to them by order of the British crown and was repossessed by the .gov. They've filed many complaints over the years but to no avail. Here is a short article on the subject.

Have you got a cite that a reasonable person would believe? Because that one is, frankly, full of crap.

Not saying the indians weren't cheated out of their lands. But I wouldn't believe that cite if it told me water was wet.

[Argus]

Wonder how the people who do support the natives would feel if these guys decided to squat in their subdivision and claim it.

But they are not. They only ask for what is rightfully theirs, They've been filling complaints for the past 25 years and haven't even been acknowledge.

One would think, if the matter were as cut and dried as you say, that the courts would have ruled in their favour by now. Yes, I know that treaty negotiations go on forever. This is not the same thing. According to the only cite thus far presented they were given this land as a grant by the government itself. Thus, unlike most treaty and land negotiations, where the major issues are proving they were ever on that land and then whether they gave it up, there is no disputing the land was, at least once, theirs by legal title. The only question, then, is whether they gave it up legally or not. Which, if the cite were anything close to true, should be fairly easy to demonstrate.

If the cite had any truth to it

[geoffrey]

Look at it this way. If they want our modern standard of living, our money, access to our institutions... it's time they grew up and became part of Canada.

They can't have it both ways. Maintain their traditional way of life of sitting on their asses smoking the peace pipe and have access to all our admenities brought about by hard work.

Canadian taxpayers shouldn't tolerate it. It's time to end any programs for the Indians and force them into our society. No exceptions. I'm sick of being a second class citizen, when will we stand up for our rights?

About the idea that the Indian's were 'cheated' out of their lands... well, Indians didn't have land ownership rights before, so I don't see how they get them now. Are they a traditional people? If so, act like it. Stop asking for my money to fund their lifestyle. Live off the land in tipi's, longhouses, whatever, eatting what they hunt and catch. If they starve one winter, tough, that is their traditional way of life.

You can't have the benefits of modern living with the efforts of nomadic lifestyles. Adapt to our way of life or stop asking for money. I have little patience for this burden on our society, especially when it impacts the lives of very hardworking people.

They don't get the idea of hard work, otherwise, they'd be at work. We can't expect that they will act civilised and proceed through the courts. Shut them down, those that resist, jail them.

Enough of this crap. Time to modernize our Canada.

[scribblet]

Look at it this way. If they want our modern standard of living, our money, access to our institutions... it's time they grew up and became part of Canada.

They can't have it both ways. Maintain their traditional way of life of sitting on their asses smoking the peace pipe and have access to all our admenities brought about by hard work.

Canadian taxpayers shouldn't tolerate it. It's time to end any programs for the Indians and force them into our society. No exceptions. I'm sick of being a second class citizen, when will we stand up for our rights?

About the idea that the Indian's were 'cheated' out of their lands... well, Indians didn't have land ownership rights before, so I don't see how they get them now. Are they a traditional people? If so, act like it. Stop asking for my money to fund their lifestyle. Live off the land in tipi's, longhouses, whatever, eatting what they hunt and catch. If they starve one winter, tough, that is their traditional way of life.

You can't have the benefits of modern living with the efforts of nomadic lifestyles. Adapt to our way of life or stop asking for money. I have little patience for this burden on our society, especially when it impacts the lives of very hardworking people.

They don't get the idea of hard work, otherwise, they'd be at work. We can't expect that they will act civilised and proceed through the courts. Shut them down, those that resist, jail them.

Enough of this crap. Time to modernize our Canada.

Well said. Enough is enough, but will any gov't ever have the guts to stand up to this blackmail?

[Michael Hardner]

I'm sick of being a second class citizen, when will we stand up for our rights?

I don't understand why you think you're a second class citizen. If you're white, chances are you're doing far better than the average Indian - healthier, richer and more secure. Why are you the second class citizen ?

Is it because you're bothered by, or you feel guilty about images you see on TV ?

Indians are doing very badly in this country, and most people feel bad about that even if they don't feel guilty. Governments from both sides are unable to solve these embedded problems, and because of politics they don't wash their hands of it either. So we limp along with half solutions that don't work.

But this second-class citizen business seems to me to have something to do with your identity as a Canadian. In Toronto, an Indian is more often treated like a second class citizen than a white person.

[geoffrey]

I'm sick of being a second class citizen, when will we stand up for our rights?

I don't understand why you think you're a second class citizen. If you're white, chances are you're doing far better than the average Indian - healthier, richer and more secure. Why are you the second class citizen ?

Is it because you're bothered by, or you feel guilty about images you see on TV ?

Indians are doing very badly in this country, and most people feel bad about that even if they don't feel guilty. Governments from both sides are unable to solve these embedded problems, and because of politics they don't wash their hands of it either. So we limp along with half solutions that don't work.

But this second-class citizen business seems to me to have something to do with your identity as a Canadian. In Toronto, an Indian is more often treated like a second class citizen than a white person.

Am I doing better as the average Indian? Most likely.

What images? I honestly don't care what condition they live in, its beyond our responsibility. We've given them so much cash, so many programs, and nothing changes. It's time we cut them off.

How am I not a second class citizen? Indian's don't pay taxes, Indian's don't pay for school... what the heck is up with that? Why do Canadians need to pay for these things, but if your Indian, you get it all free. They even have their own legal systems now, where punishment isn't even involved. So many of them can't accept the laws of the country they live in that they've become a massive burden on our justice system. So many that we gave up trying to deal with them.

That is second class. Treat them equally. Send them a nice tax bill, kick them off the reservations and force them to assimilate. Maybe these Indians in Toronto are treated poorly in your example because other Canadians are sick of giving a free ride to those that just don't want to change. I'm sure any group of second class citizens would be very upset that their first-class counterparts blow all the opportunity given to them in exchange for a life of undignified squalor.

It's time to end all benefits and payments to Indian populations.

[Riverwind]

Maybe these Indians in Toronto are treated poorly in your example because other Canadians are sick of giving a free ride to those that just don't want to change.

Geoffrey, you hit the nail on the head. The idea that certain Canadians enjoy special rights due to their genetic heritage is pure racism. Native groups insist that the government adopt racist policies when dealing with them yet they express outrage when non-aboriginal Canadians adopt racist attitudes when dealing with Natives.

In fact, even if handing all of these entitlements over to natives actually succeeds in bringing the natives out of poverty, I believe you will see even more racism directed at natives because there would no longer be the 'sympathy' factor that convinces some people to overlook the inequity of native entitlements.

[Michael Hardner]

It's pretty obvious that the benefits you describe haven't helped them much on the whole. If they were doing well, maybe I could understand not wanting to help them.

And the motivation for your ideas seems to be rooted more in self-interest than in interest in solving this problem. That's fair. You have no obligation to help them but I still think it's strange to describe yourself as a second-class citizen when compared to them, given their situation.

[geoffrey]

I have second-class rights. I don't have the rights of an Indian, so I am second class.

During the apartheid, there were black's that did hold wealth. Doesn't change the fact they were second class citizens. No one would make an argument to the contrary. This is an extreme example, I admit, but its an applicable example none the less.

The bigger issue is that we have trespassers that the police refuse to deal with. Call in the army, move them off this privately owned land and publically owned roadway. People's lives are being destroyed by people that obviously don't value work, otherwise, like I said previously, they'd be at work and dealing with their problems through legal means.

This illegal bully-tactic should not be tolerated. We need government in Ontario that will strike down anyone that uses illegal tactics to push a political agenda. Rule of law is supreme in our country, apparently not with Indians though.

[Freshinit]

I think a writer for the globe and mail put it best just the other day. "You have a 20 year old drop out with limited education prospects and he is faced with two decisions: Wear steel toed boots and work in a warehouse for $11 an hour, or wear ancestrial warrior gowns and fight for the cause of your tradition."

The solution to these constant territorial debates lie in early education. We must halt this generational drift, this apathy towards making something of yourself.

[Michael Hardner]

I have second-class rights. I don't have the rights of an Indian, so I am second class.

Since most of the rights you mentioned amount to free services, and as you admit you're probably better off than most of them why do you care ?

I could understand your feelings if you were downtrodden, but the fact is that they're doing poorly even with low taxes, free education and so forth. I'm asking you honestly why it bothers you, not to try to shame you for your feelings - I really want to know.

Is it that this problem won't go away even after we've spent millions, billions on it ? Does it offend your idea of what our society should be ? What is it ?

[Riverwind]

I could understand your feelings if you were downtrodden, but the fact is that they're doing poorly even with low taxes, free education and so forth.

We are not talking about an affimative action program that would be phased out if and when the natives are able to pull themselves out of the poverty pit. We are talking about permenant legal rights that Canadian taxpayers have to continue to pay for even if the natives become wealthier than the average Canadian. This is a system of reverse aparthied that has no place in a democratic and egalitarian society.

[Michael Hardner]

We are not talking about an affimative action program that would be phased out if and when the natives are able to pull themselves out of the poverty pit. We are talking about permenant legal rights that Canadian taxpayers have to continue to pay for even if the natives become wealthier than the average Canadian. This is a system of reverse aparthied that has no place in a democratic and egalitarian society.

Again, why does it bother you ? Do you think we should prioritize that inequity right now, given the state that these people are in ?

[Riverwind]

Again, why does it bother you ? Do you think we should prioritize that inequity right now, given the state that these people are in ?

I have nothing against temporary assistance programs that are directed specifically at natives. I have a big problem with setting up a permanent system of apartheid in this country that we will be stuck with long after any problems within the native communities have been addressed. It should concern you as well.

[Michael Hardner]

I have nothing against temporary assistance programs that are directed specifically at natives. I have a big problem with setting up a permanent system of apartheid in this country that we will be stuck with long after any problems within the native communities have been addressed. It should concern you as well.

I might be concerned if we were seeing the problems addressed. Until then, it doesn't bother me a bit -assuming of course that these programs eventually start to help.

I respect your desire for fairness across the board, but given the sorry state that these people are in, I don't feel that absolute fairness should be as much a priority right now. Personally, I feel that our country is obliged to set policies to help groups that are doing much worse than average, and further to that - that there's an economic advantage in investing in these groups.

I understand that you don't feel that way, and that the average Canadian probably has views somewhere between yours and mine. I wouldn't expect your approach to be picked up anytime soon, nor do I expect the current approach to work either.

[Renegade]

It's pretty obvious that the benefits you describe haven't helped them much on the whole. If they were doing well, maybe I could understand not wanting to help them.

And the motivation for your ideas seems to be rooted more in self-interest than in interest in solving this problem. That's fair. You have no obligation to help them but I still think it's strange to describe yourself as a second-class citizen when compared to them, given their situation.

Michael, as you've said the benefits haven't helped much. For me the biggest objection is that the beneifts actually promote a culture of dependance and reduce the initiative for self-reliance. It would be one thing if the benefits were temporary and actually shown to help, but history has shown that all it does is create a culture of dependance and a sense of entitlement.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Again, why does it bother you ? Do you think we should prioritize that inequity right now, given the state that these people are in ?

I have nothing against temporary assistance programs that are directed specifically at natives. I have a big problem with setting up a permanent system of apartheid in this country that we will be stuck with long after any problems within the native communities have been addressed. It should concern you as well.

Apartheid

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, as you've said the benefits haven't helped much. For me the biggest objection is that the beneifts actually promote a culture of dependance and reduce the initiative for self-reliance. It would be one thing if the benefits were temporary and actually shown to help, but history has shown that all it does is create a culture of dependance and a sense of entitlement.

Well, I tend to agree with you on that point but I wanted to assess the nature of your concern first.

I would agree with cutting benefits entirely if I thought it would help, but I don't. I also don't think cutting people a cheque does much for them, aside from stopping them from starving to death.

A healthy community should be able to repair its damage and move forward but the types of social assistance we have seem to prevent wounds from healing. It's been remarked that our system invests more in failure than success. That's the problem I have with social programs as they are.

The downside of the right-left arguments of the last few years is that they've constricted the debate into a framework that lacks flexibility and imagination. The questions that are debated seem to be: "how much do we cut, or increase funding ?" not "are these systems effective ?" or "what else can we try ?".