Ontario Budget

[margrace]

I was just wondering what people want. John Tory wants income tax cuts and to pay down the debt. So I got to thinking what do people want or need in their life. Seems like a lot of us want our cake and eat it too.

What is important for me? Well living on around $30,000 a year and still paying a small mortgage at 70 years of life the following things are imperative. Good health care is tops. We live in mid Ontario and have great health care.

Much more public transportation, we have to drive 35Ks to catch a train that goes by 5Ks from where we live. Buses only run 3 times a day, 7AM 1.30 Pm and 5PM, the nearest shopping centre with more than a grocery store is 35K's away. Our doctor is 35Ks away, as is our main hospital. Bus service to them would be better.

So food is available close, we do have good ambulance serice, four and one half minutes to get here, an available minimum health care facility the same distance away.

So what else do I need?

[Renegade]

What I'd really like is for the government to minimize its interference in my life.

Yes, I'd like to pay less taxes. I'd much rather decide myself what I do with my money then have the government decide for me. I'm ok if the government has to cut services to do so.

Yes good healthcare is necessary. But it requires change in order to be both viable, give people choices, and be equitable for those who are asked to pay for it.

[fryingpan]

I think every government official in the province should have their paychecks cut to minimum wage. With the excess funds, we can increase spending by 200% to every single program we have and reduce taxes to 0%. For the next 20 years.

This would encourage economic growth among businesses (non-existant taxes = endless opportunities for expansion). It would also encourage more people to remain in Canada instead of going to the States, since they can actually keep their money. This would result in better services for all of us, since our professionals would have actual skills.

And most importantly, it will help stop the constant leaching of the government.

[Big Blue Machine]

Public officials deserve every penny they make. It's a terrible job. Long hours, having to put up with the media and attacks from others, listening to people complaning to them, travelling, then on top of that, they only have a four year job security.

[John]

I'd like to see the elimination of the property tax. What kind of society is it where I'm paying the bank my mortgage with after tax income, but if I don't pay more tax I lose my house??? Home ownerhip is only a theory. The government owns it all and we're all just renters.

Mortgage interest should also be tax deductable, if it's not already.

Bring in a flat tax for all taxpayers, something low, like 5%. People who make a lot of money already pay more in taxes by the simple fact that they earn more. They shouldn't be taxed at a higher rate on top of that.

Also, why is anyone earning under 35k-40k taxed at all? Especially one income families?

The corporate tax should also be slashed.

I should be free to pay for my own health care if I choose. If I want to pay for health care with my after tax dollars in a private clinic I should be able to do so.

De-regulate electricity markets. Competition should eventually bring in lower prices, and solve the energy crisis in this province.

I heard the Ontario government pays $15 billion a year to subsidize electricity. Annually, that's about $1,250 in pockets of every man, woman and child in this province or $5,000 per 4-person household.

My family pays about $1,000 per year in electricity.

I'd like the difference please!

Renewable energy generating products should be tax deductable.

That's all for now...but not all there is.

I'll submit more sooner or later.

[Hydraboss]

I'd like to see the elimination of the property tax. What kind of society is it where I'm paying the bank my mortgage with after tax income, but if I don't pay more tax I lose my house??? Home ownerhip is only a theory. The government owns it all and we're all just renters.

Mortgage interest should also be tax deductable, if it's not already.

Bring in a flat tax for all taxpayers, something low, like 5%. People who make a lot of money already pay more in taxes by the simple fact that they earn more. They shouldn't be taxed at a higher rate on top of that.

Also, why is anyone earning under 35k-40k taxed at all? Especially one income families?

The corporate tax should also be slashed.

I should be free to pay for my own health care if I choose. If I want to pay for health care with my after tax dollars in a private clinic I should be able to do so.

De-regulate electricity markets. Competition should eventually bring in lower prices, and solve the energy crisis in this province.

I heard the Ontario government pays $15 billion a year to subsidize electricity. Annually, that's about $1,250 in pockets of every man, woman and child in this province or $5,000 per 4-person household.

My family pays about $1,000 per year in electricity.

I'd like the difference please!

Renewable energy generating products should be tax deductable.

That's all for now...but not all there is.

I'll submit more sooner or later.

Just a note from Alberta....you may want to rethink the power de-regulation thing. Based on this month's power bill (it goes up EVERY month) I pay over $2300 a year. My gas bill from last year was $2640. "Competition" has quadrupled my bills. Be careful what you wish for.

[geoffrey]

And thats why you pay much less taxes. Our bills haven't gone up that much.

And tell the whole truth about it, the government caps prices at $7 or $8 a gigajoule for Nat. Gas. Prices can't go up when its capped.

Electricity prices have gone up here, in Ontario, taxes have gone up to cover the same concept.

That is the nature of the beast, your going to pay for it one way or another. It's a big falisy to believe that because its public that its somehow cheaper. You do pay for it.

[Hydraboss]

And thats why you pay much less taxes. Our bills haven't gone up that much.

And tell the whole truth about it, the government caps prices at $7 or $8 a gigajoule for Nat. Gas. Prices can't go up when its capped.

Electricity prices have gone up here, in Ontario, taxes have gone up to cover the same concept.

That is the nature of the beast, your going to pay for it one way or another. It's a big falisy to believe that because its public that its somehow cheaper. You do pay for it.

Geoffrey, are you kidding? Not to be rude, but how long have you been paying utilities in this province? It wasn't long ago that my power bills were $45-$55 per month. Last month $173.86. Gas bill used to be roughly $80. Last month $233.00. Same house. Same people living there. Tell me again that the government caps work. What a load of crap.

I am a proud Albertan, and partially because of our tax structure (which I have been paying into for years). BUT Klein royally f**ked up the whole de-reg thing. And then the government consistently misleads Albertans about it.

[John]

Here's some more ideas...

Privatize the liquor/beer stores...spend the yearly savings on education. Spend any future income from liquor licenses on education.

End no-fault insurance...it's such a sham. Why should my premiums go up if I'm not at fault? I'm being penalized for driving my car!?!

Withdraw from the CPP and set up an Ontario version. That money should stay and be invested in Ontario.

Withdraw from EI and set up an Ontario version. The program is overfunded by $40 billion which is used to fund other programs nation wide. Bring it home, where it can help pay off our debt and then cut the premiums people are forced to pay for it.

I'd also be willing to fight for Ontario's share of that 40B. Simply put, Ontario has 40% of the population, so we should get 40% of 40B -- that's 16B. Doubt we'd get it though.

[geoffrey]

If you Ontario people think you've got something to whine about in the fiscal imbalance, just check out Alberta. We pay 4 times per capita is much as you guys into confederation. Your not robbed nearly as much as we are.

[geoffrey]

Geoffrey, are you kidding? Not to be rude, but how long have you been paying utilities in this province? It wasn't long ago that my power bills were $45-$55 per month. Last month $173.86. Gas bill used to be roughly $80. Last month $233.00. Same house. Same people living there. Tell me again that the government caps work. What a load of crap.

I am a proud Albertan, and partially because of our tax structure (which I have been paying into for years). BUT Klein royally f**ked up the whole de-reg thing. And then the government consistently misleads Albertans about it.

Check out the commodity prices and factor inflation. Our utility bills have no gone up much. The difference is made up in less government expeditures, which the ulitily program was before. We pay less taxes because of deregulation.

Why must everyone insist that the government subsidize everything we do?

[Hydraboss]

Geoffrey, are you kidding? Not to be rude, but how long have you been paying utilities in this province? It wasn't long ago that my power bills were $45-$55 per month. Last month $173.86. Gas bill used to be roughly $80. Last month $233.00. Same house. Same people living there. Tell me again that the government caps work. What a load of crap.

I am a proud Albertan, and partially because of our tax structure (which I have been paying into for years). BUT Klein royally f**ked up the whole de-reg thing. And then the government consistently misleads Albertans about it.

Check out the commodity prices and factor inflation. Our utility bills have no gone up much. The difference is made up in less government expeditures, which the ulitily program was before. We pay less taxes because of deregulation.

Why must everyone insist that the government subsidize everything we do?

I am not in favor of government subsidizing anything. My statement is simply that the Alberta government handled de-reg horribly. I was a Klein fan, and am still a PC supporter, but the "following blind" attitude in this province is the problem. Not everything they do is for the benefit of the people of the province. And if you research the inflation issue, they're not even close to being reasonable when it comes to utilities.

Based on a monthly price of $55 in 1993, the inflation rate would have had to be 10% every year (year over year) for 12 years to reach a price of $172.61. 313.84% effective increase.

/hijack

[John]

If you Ontario people think you've got something to whine about in the fiscal imbalance, just check out Alberta. We pay 4 times per capita is much as you guys into confederation. Your not robbed nearly as much as we are.

I know you guys pay a lot and have a right to complain (Ontarians pay out almost $2000 while Albertans pay almost $3000, going by what Ralph said last year). The fiscal arrangement in this country needs to be reworked to give the people more of their own money.

[Hydraboss]

If you Ontario people think you've got something to whine about in the fiscal imbalance, just check out Alberta. We pay 4 times per capita is much as you guys into confederation. Your not robbed nearly as much as we are.

I know you guys pay a lot and have a right to complain (Ontarians pay out almost $2000 while Albertans pay almost $3000, going by what Ralph said last year). The fiscal arrangement in this country needs to be reworked to give the people more of their own money.

John, I agree. My problem is the "give the people" part. They shouldn't be taking it in the first place, and I equate it to theft.

[John]

If you Ontario people think you've got something to whine about in the fiscal imbalance, just check out Alberta. We pay 4 times per capita is much as you guys into confederation. Your not robbed nearly as much as we are.

I know you guys pay a lot and have a right to complain (Ontarians pay out almost $2000 while Albertans pay almost $3000, going by what Ralph said last year). The fiscal arrangement in this country needs to be reworked to give the people more of their own money.

John, I agree. My problem is the "give the people" part. They shouldn't be taking it in the first place, and I equate it to theft.

You're right...I think we're on the same page though...lower, much lower, taxes for all.

[geoffrey]

No more equalisation programs is the big deal. The maritimes wouldn't need it if they didn't have such luxourious welfare. Cut their budget down to Alberta's welfare levels and they'd be running surpluses without trasnfers.

Why does Alberta, Ontario and BC have less then the rest in government services, but we end up paying for everyone elses spending?

[Hydraboss]

No more equalisation programs is the big deal. The maritimes wouldn't need it if they didn't have such luxourious welfare. Cut their budget down to Alberta's welfare levels and they'd be running surpluses without trasnfers.

Why does Alberta, Ontario and BC have less then the rest in government services, but we end up paying for everyone elses spending?

Exactly. An ingrained culture that the government will take care of everything. Try standing on your own two feet, and leave mine alone. Politically incorrect? Yup. And I just don't care anymore.

[Michael Hardner]

The maritimes wouldn't need it if they didn't have such luxourious welfare. Cut their budget down to Alberta's welfare levels and they'd be running surpluses without trasnfers.

Check out this link:

http://www.ncwcnbes.net/htmdocument/report...03/WI2003_e.pdf

Welfare isn't that much more in the eastern provinces.

Depending on how much you want to cut welfare, you wouldn't get a huge amount savings.

[John]

The maritimes wouldn't need it if they didn't have such luxourious welfare. Cut their budget down to Alberta's welfare levels and they'd be running surpluses without trasnfers.

Check out this link:

http://www.ncwcnbes.net/htmdocument/report...03/WI2003_e.pdf

Welfare isn't that much more in the eastern provinces.

Depending on how much you want to cut welfare, you wouldn't get a huge amount savings.

I saw the title of the paper(boring), and then that it had 109 pages(swoon)...sorry I couldn't even start to look at it...

Anyway, it's not just welfare though. It's the amount of money being pumped to those provinces.

If the federal government would just cut taxes and stop meddling with the provinces they just might be able to do something that would make them competitive.

Iceland and Ireland both have kick-ass economies. How are they that much better than our maritimes (I'm not even going to get in on Quebec here)?

[geoffrey]

It's a ridiculous amount of money that has ALWAYS (well always since a majority of us have been alive, mid-1950's) been going from Alberta and Ontario to the Maritimes.

Without oil in the 1980's (Oh how I love Trudeau) Alberta still paid out, a little less than we normally do mind you, even though the Newfoundland cod were bountiful.

It isn't just that their fisheries are gone. It is an attitude, a 'culture of defeat', that the government has insisted in placing upon these people.

I don't believe that they are substandard people, that'd be impossible because of all the Newfies that have found success since they've left the rock. But the government has kept them oppressed and poor on that little island of theirs, by giving them such generous payments. Got to love it.

--

By the way, its not the amount of welfare people are getting that ticks me off. It's this idea that they need not work until a job comes to them.

Get off their lazy asses and find a job, move if they must. Unemployment is unjustified for able bodied people in this country.

--

A little bit of stats from a prof of mine:

1961-02' Average payments into equalisation per capita per annum

Alberta $2510

Ontario $758

BC $428

New Brunswick ($3355)

Newfoundland ($4119)

Nova Scotia ($4199)

PEI ($4659)

As a percentage of their NET GDP

Alberta (6%)

Ontario (2%)

BC (2%)

New Brunswick 18%

Nova Scotia 23%

Newfoundland 24%

PEI 17%

--

So what do we have here? 6% of money made in Alberta is going to pay for the rest of the country. In Newfoundland, 24% of their economy is government handouts.

It's unsustainable, and really, it pissed me off. I don't see why we out west and you people in Ontario must support such a burden when the maritimers really don't care.

Give them the boot off the welfare couch or lets pack up and leave.

[fryingpan]

So what do we have here? 6% of money made in Alberta is going to pay for the rest of the country. In Newfoundland, 24% of their economy is government handouts.

It's unsustainable, and really, it pissed me off. I don't see why we out west and you people in Ontario must support such a burden when the maritimers really don't care.

Give them the boot off the welfare couch or lets pack up and leave.

I say stick them on planes, fly them to Alberta, and let them work at McDonalds for $10/hour. If the starting wage rate is so high, they must need people, so let's give them some.

[margrace]

So what do we have here? 6% of money made in Alberta is going to pay for the rest of the country. In Newfoundland, 24% of their economy is government handouts.

It's unsustainable, and really, it pissed me off. I don't see why we out west and you people in Ontario must support such a burden when the maritimers really don't care.

Give them the boot off the welfare couch or lets pack up and leave.

I say stick them on planes, fly them to Alberta, and let them work at McDonalds for $10/hour. If the starting wage rate is so high, they must need people, so let's give them some.

Where would they live, out on the Prairies in tents as our Japanese neighbours did when they were shifted to Alberta in the war time. Housing up north is terrible, I have 7 family members working there.

[geoffrey]

Terrible housing is better than them doing nothing for the rest of their lives. Build a nice set of one bedroom trailers for them, who cares, I know I don't.

Sacrifices sometimes have to be made, I have no sympathy for people living off the public teat for so long.

A trailer that you paid for yourself is better than a suburban home paid for by the State.

When will lazy welfare types realise that someone else is working for all they have?

[fryingpan]

So what do we have here? 6% of money made in Alberta is going to pay for the rest of the country. In Newfoundland, 24% of their economy is government handouts.

It's unsustainable, and really, it pissed me off. I don't see why we out west and you people in Ontario must support such a burden when the maritimers really don't care.

Give them the boot off the welfare couch or lets pack up and leave.

I say stick them on planes, fly them to Alberta, and let them work at McDonalds for $10/hour. If the starting wage rate is so high, they must need people, so let's give them some.

Where would they live, out on the Prairies in tents as our Japanese neighbours did when they were shifted to Alberta in the war time. Housing up north is terrible, I have 7 family members working there.

Do you mean lack of housing or lack of decent houses? I can understand if there are literally no houses or apartments left for them to live in, but if the houses/apartments are just poorly maintained...

[scribblet]

No more equalisation programs is the big deal. The maritimes wouldn't need it if they didn't have such luxourious welfare. Cut their budget down to Alberta's welfare levels and they'd be running surpluses without trasnfers.

Why does Alberta, Ontario and BC have less then the rest in government services, but we end up paying for everyone elses spending?

I wonder about that too, evidently McGuinty is wondering the same thing. The report put a nice spin on equalization, it said " equalization is not a program in which money from richer provinces is shipped to poorer ones. Instead, it stresses that equalization comes from federal revenues provided to Ottawa from all taxpayers from coast to coast." Well duh...what's the difference other than terminology, it is still a socialist Robbing Hood endeavour. Not that I object to some form of help for the poorer provinces, but I'd rather see more done to create jobs and businesses.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...ef-6884288ad31a

McGuinty breaks ranks with Premiers

Leaders meeting: Ontario stand on transfer payments called 'act of aggression'

MONTREAL - Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty's claim that his province can no longer afford to serve as a cash cow for the rest of Canada has angered his fellow premiers and threatened the united front the provinces hope to present in their dealings with Ottawa.

Mr. McGuinty -- who skipped the final day of the premiers' two-day meeting here after breaking ranks yesterday -- was under fire for opposing a proposed enrichment of the federal equalization program, which flows cash to every province except Ontario and Alberta.

-snip-