Does anyone have any attention span?

[Five of swords]

I realize that the average person has already forgotten that some guy shot at Trump. For that to have mattered for his campaign, it really would have had to happen a week before people start voting.

 

But I personally was taking a walk down memory lane today, and found myself musing about Obama. You know, the hope and change guy. He was going to solve racism. The country was going to make sense again. I remember how much optimism was in the air when he got elected.

 

And now I am just wondering...a decade or so later...did he really change anything? Have we, in fact, solved racism? Was that even an important issue to focus on?

 

How exactly did the promise of the usa in the minds of the 'hopeful' actually measure uo to the reality?

 

Cause to be honest, I get the strong feeling that the usa just feels stale now. People don't even want to talk about anything anymore. Not only because they don't want to be thrown in prison...but also because there doesn't seem like much of a point, because nobody can even manage to have a rational discussion about anything that matters. Being a us citizen really just means keeping your head low and maybe consuming some product to distract yourself from how bleak everything is.

 

I actually feel like science fiction is struggling these days to be interesting...because intuitively and perhaps subconsciously people just doubt that humanity is going to have much of a future at all...certainly not one in the stars. The fascination elon musk has for Mars seems like a sort of gimmick. At best he is naive...more likely he is ghost dancing.

 

Is it just me? Or does anyone else feel like 2008-2024 was a period where about a billion people just gave up? And they don't even have the energy to try anymore?

[Dougie93]

32 minutes ago, Five of swords said:

I actually feel like science fiction is struggling these days to be interesting...

Is it just me? Or does anyone else feel like 2008-2024 was a period where about a billion people just gave up? And they don't even have the energy to try anymore?

it's not science fiction

it's just science

see; the Mouse Utopia experiments from 1958 to 1972

you create the perfect conditions for a massive and sudden population explosion

and that alone is enough to incite a societal collapse by what is called the Behavioural Sink

[Five of swords]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it's not science fiction

it's just science

see; the Mouse Utopia experiments from 1958 to 1972

you create the perfect conditions for a massive and sudden population explosion

and that alone is enough to incite a societal collapse by what is called the Behavioural Sink

Population explosion was not the issue with the mouse utopia...

 

It was that everyone survived.

 

Thus the gene pool is never pruned, and you get runaway mutations.

 

But I don't understand why you are bringing up the mouse utopia. I was thinking star trek. Huh?

Edited August 30 by Five of swords

[Dougie93]

23 minutes ago, Five of swords said:

Population explosion was not the issue with the mouse utopia...

 

It was that everyone survived.

 

Thus the gene pool is never pruned, and you get runaway mutations.

 

But I don't understand why you are bringing up the mouse utopia. I was thinking star trek. Huh?

everyone surviving incited a population density beyond which the society could sustain itself

So what exactly happened in Universe 25? Past day 315, population growth slowed. More than six hundred mice now lived in Universe 25, constantly rubbing shoulders on their way up and down the stairwells to eat, drink, and sleep. Mice found themselves born into a world that was more crowded every day, and there were far more mice than meaningful social roles. With more and more peers to defend against, males found it difficult and stressful to defend their territory, so they abandoned the activity. Normal social discourse within the mouse community broke down, and with it the ability of mice to form social bonds. The failures and dropouts congregated in large groups in the middle of the enclosure, their listless withdrawal occasionally interrupted by spasms and waves of pointless violence. The victims of these random attacks became attackers. Left on their own in nests subject to invasion, nursing females attacked their own young. Procreation slumped, infant abandonment and mortality soared. Lone females retreated to isolated nesting boxes on penthouse levels. Other males, a group Calhoun termed “the beautiful ones,” never sought sex and never fought—they just ate, slept, and groomed, wrapped in narcissistic introspection. Elsewhere, cannibalism, pansexualism, and violence became endemic. Mouse society had collapsed.

sound familiar ?

the operating mechanism was loss of "meaningful societal roles"

this is happening right before our eyes in real time

Edited August 30 by Dougie93

[myata]

The political discourse has all but collapsed indeed. It's not about priorities anymore, but getting to the power and hanging out there as long as at possible. In the extremely polarized political landscape implementing any major changes, even absolutely needed like healthcare with Obama managed to have done after all or border security becomes next to impossible. The more citizens become detached from the power, the less the conversation focuses on common issues and shared responsibility for the present and the future and the more, a fairy tale - Christmas shopping attitude push here and expect a miracle even when you know that in reality it's not possible. Disengaged citizens is a serious problem for democracy and ultimately, it's not the political elites but citizens who own their democracy and so, must assume full responsibility for its condition, and fate.

[Five of swords]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

everyone surviving incited a population density beyond which the society could sustain itself

So what exactly happened in Universe 25? Past day 315, population growth slowed. More than six hundred mice now lived in Universe 25, constantly rubbing shoulders on their way up and down the stairwells to eat, drink, and sleep. Mice found themselves born into a world that was more crowded every day, and there were far more mice than meaningful social roles. With more and more peers to defend against, males found it difficult and stressful to defend their territory, so they abandoned the activity. Normal social discourse within the mouse community broke down, and with it the ability of mice to form social bonds. The failures and dropouts congregated in large groups in the middle of the enclosure, their listless withdrawal occasionally interrupted by spasms and waves of pointless violence. The victims of these random attacks became attackers. Left on their own in nests subject to invasion, nursing females attacked their own young. Procreation slumped, infant abandonment and mortality soared. Lone females retreated to isolated nesting boxes on penthouse levels. Other males, a group Calhoun termed “the beautiful ones,” never sought sex and never fought—they just ate, slept, and groomed, wrapped in narcissistic introspection. Elsewhere, cannibalism, pansexualism, and violence became endemic. Mouse society had collapsed.

sound familiar ?

the operating mechanism was loss of "meaningful societal roles"

this is happening right before our eyes in real time

Well yeah...I studied the experiment in depth. What is interesting is that if you remove the 'beautiful ones' then the nest winds up being fine and functional

[Five of swords]

1 hour ago, myata said:

The political discourse has all but collapsed indeed. It's not about priorities anymore, but getting to the power and hanging out there as long as at possible. In the extremely polarized political landscape implementing any major changes, even absolutely needed like healthcare with Obama managed to have done after all or border security becomes next to impossible. The more citizens become detached from the power, the less the conversation focuses on common issues and shared responsibility for the present and the future and the more, a fairy tale - Christmas shopping attitude push here and expect a miracle even when you know that in reality it's not possible. Disengaged citizens is a serious problem for democracy and ultimately, it's not the political elites but citizens who own their democracy and so, must assume full responsibility for its condition, and fate.

I don't think politics was ever any different, though. I guess all that has changed is that now citizens seem more aware that their opinions don't matter. It seemed like for a long time people were duped into believing that the elite gave a damn about public opinion.

[DUI_Offender]

Five of Swords has a Magnificat Nazi span.

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, Five of swords said:

I realize that the average person has already forgotten that some guy shot at Trump. For that to have mattered for his campaign, it really would have had to happen a week before people start voting.

But I personally was taking a walk down memory lane today, and found myself musing about Obama. You know, the hope and change guy. He was going to solve racism. The country was going to make sense again. I remember how much optimism was in the air when he got elected.

And now I am just wondering...a decade or so later...did he really change anything? Have we, in fact, solved racism?

Obama talked, just like all politicians talk. That doesn't mean that he actually intended to do anything.

He wasn't the first race-hustler in US political history and he obviously won't be the last because Biden did the exact same thing when he hired Kamala because of her ethnicity.

At the end of the day, Obama's legacy on racism was using fake narratives to divide Americans by skin colour and the Dems are still doing it every day.

Racism grew like a weed under Obama. It wasn't awkward to meet black Americans in 2008, it was just normal. Now whenever you meet a black American you can't help but think they could be a CNN-cult racist.

Edited August 30 by WestCanMan

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Obama talked, just like all politicians talk. That doesn't mean that he actually intended to do anything.

He wasn't the first race-hustler in US political history and he obviously won't be the last because Biden did the exact same thing when he hired Kamala because of her ethnicity.

At the end of the day, Obama's legacy on racism was using fake narratives to divide Americans by skin colour and the Dems are still doing it every day.

Racism grew like a weed under Obama. It wasn't awkward to meet black Americans in 2008, it was just normal. Now whenever you meet a black American you can't help but think they could be a CNN-cult racist.

This is entirely true.   Right down to the Trayvon Martin case

Obama had an absolutely fascinating and clever political strategy. He promoted the hell out of intersectional politics and formed the intersectional coalition while at the same time preaching the need for unity.  His "'a morte perfect union' speech is an interesting case study. It's basically one line about america good followed by one about america bad.  " America is great! Except it's terribly racist and repressive and hurt a lot of people. But are founding fathers worked hard to complete the constitution. But they screwed it up and left it unfinished. But that's okay because in it's very core it has what it needs, the idea that all men are equal. Except it doesn't actually say that so we got screwed"

As a result racism of course got worse. That's what will always happen. When you tell one group that they are horrible victims who can never ever in the foreseeable future call their way back from the pit into which they have been thrown and then you turn to another group and say it's your fault entirely even though none of you were actually there Then you create a fertile breeding ground for horrible racism and division

But let's get real, that actually works for politicians. Division and hatred and anger and separateness and fear of the other, those are all things that have been harnessed by politicians throughout history going back to Rome because they work.

[robosmith]

4 hours ago, Five of swords said:

I don't think politics was ever any different, though. I guess all that has changed is that now citizens seem more aware that their opinions don't matter. It seemed like for a long time people were duped into believing that the elite gave a damn about public opinion.

The "elite" give a damn about getting elected and therefore NEED the FAVORABLE mass public opinion. Duh

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Obama talked, just like all politicians talk. That doesn't mean that he actually intended to do anything.

He wasn't the first race-hustler in US political history and he obviously won't be the last because Biden did the exact same thing when he hired Kamala because of her ethnicity.

At the end of the day, Obama's legacy on racism was using fake narratives to divide Americans by skin colour and the Dems are still doing it every day.

Racism grew like a weed under Obama. It wasn't awkward to meet black Americans in 2008, it was just normal. Now whenever you meet a black American you can't help but think they could be a CNN-cult racist.

Biden didn't "hire" Kamala. The US voters hired BOTH OF THEM.

YOU obviously don't know ANYTHING about racism in the US BEFORE Obama.

RepubliCONS do FAR MORE to divide Americans by race; they didn't VOTE for Obama, Dems did.

And they're still doing it. Trump has a long history of PRACTICING RACISM.

See Trump race discrimination lawsuit (he lost) and Central Park Five (he made clear he thought it didn't matter they were exonerated).

[myata]

8 hours ago, Five of swords said:

I don't think politics was ever any different, though.

Well no, according to the facts. Someone built this system diligently and intelligently, someone cared to think, reflect and put effort into it. Its very existence is the evidence. But no system, no machine is perfect and is guaranteed to run perfectly for eternity no matter what we do. That just doesn't exist in this Universe, by the law of entropy. So if and when citizens get tired of thinking and assuming responsibility bad things can happen and probably will. The world cannot be blamed it just exists. So if you want to assign it, I suggest looking elsewhere.

8 hours ago, Five of swords said:

I guess all that has changed is that now citizens seem more aware that their opinions don't matter.

"Opinions" mean nothing to the Universe. And again you're forgetting this is not a Christmas bazaar here, we can't just order our future online and pick it up at the door. Amazing how it took only some decades of relative peace and prosperity for some folks to completely forget it, push this button and expect it in the mailbox or a tantrum. Did dinosaurs have opinions? How would we know? Will to change as and when needed, reason, responsibility: if we losing or have lost it, who's there to blame? Where to complain to?

Edited August 30 by myata

[CouchPotato]

10 hours ago, Five of swords said:

I don't think politics was ever any different, though. I guess all that has changed is that now citizens seem more aware that their opinions don't matter. It seemed like for a long time people were duped into believing that the elite gave a damn about public opinion.

I think that smartphones and then covid have affected us psychologically.

Edited August 30 by CouchPotato

[Black Dog]

10 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Racism grew like a weed under Obama. It wasn't awkward to meet black Americans in 2008, it was just normal. Now whenever you meet a black American you can't help but think they could be a CNN-cult racist.

So Obama made you racist.

[Five of swords]

3 hours ago, myata said:

Well no, according to the facts. Someone built this system diligently and intelligently, someone cared to think, reflect and put effort into it. Its very existence is the evidence. But no system, no machine is perfect and is guaranteed to run perfectly for eternity no matter what we do. That just doesn't exist in this Universe, by the law of entropy. So if and when citizens get tired of thinking and assuming responsibility bad things can happen and probably will. The world cannot be blamed it just exists. So if you want to assign it, I suggest looking elsewhere.

"Opinions" mean nothing to the Universe. And again you're forgetting this is not a Christmas bazaar here, we can't just order our future online and pick it up at the door. Amazing how it took only some decades of relative peace and prosperity for some folks to completely forget it, push this button and expect it in the mailbox or a tantrum. Did dinosaurs have opinions? How would we know? Will to change as and when needed, reason, responsibility: if we losing or have lost it, who's there to blame? Where to complain to?

Are you attempting to disagree with me? I didn't say that nobody put any thought into designing the system.

[myata]

4 minutes ago, Five of swords said:

I didn't say that nobody put any thought into designing the system.

Have you read carefully? What about maintaining it: cleaning, repairing when needed, upgrading and modernizing? Whose responsibility would that be? Where's that service to send orders and opinions? Who monitors and assures the standard?

[Five of swords]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

Have you read carefully? What about maintaining it: cleaning, repairing when needed, upgrading and modernizing? Whose responsibility would that be? Where's that service to send orders and opinions? Who monitors and assures the standard?

With any political system, the sovereign decides the exceptions

2 hours ago, CouchPotato said:

I think that smartphones and then covid have affected us psychologically.

Who is us? Neither had any affect on me

8 hours ago, robosmith said:

The "elite" give a damn about getting elected and therefore NEED the FAVORABLE mass public opinion. Duh

The only people who are elected are the public face of accountability, and they make no decisions on their own. It is like deciding the cast for the movie. Actors are not directors 

[myata]

1 minute ago, Five of swords said:

the sovereign decides the exceptions

This would be who, depending on the type of the system of course. A king, dictator, tyrant - or who?

[Black Dog]

15 hours ago, Five of swords said:

I realize that the average person has already forgotten that some guy shot at Trump. For that to have mattered for his campaign, it really would have had to happen a week before people start voting.

Some guy shot at Trump? I don't know, i feel like we would have heard about that if it actually happened.

[Dougie93]

13 hours ago, Five of swords said:

Well yeah...I studied the experiment in depth. What is interesting is that if you remove the 'beautiful ones' then the nest winds up being fine and functional

well Democrats are half the population

so even in the event of all out Civil War II

that wouldn't come close to wiping them out

ultimately Postbellum America is a cold war with an inner American border once called the Mason - Dixon Line

that remains the situation, it's simply that the location of the Mason Dixon line moves around

it's more Midwest and less Southeast now

[myata]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

ultimately Postbellum America is

could be, and that would be nothing less than a failure of a great, magnificent democracy project. Not a given as yet, but certainly something to think about. Democracy and freedom is never free, repeated and reminded to us throughout history; our laziness of thought and spirit, complacency on the other hand is limited only by us.

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, myata said:

could be, and that would be nothing less than a failure of a great, magnificent democracy project.

it's not a failure

Democracy in of itself is simply the tyranny of the majority

hence why America is not a democracy, but rather a constitutional republic federated state

[Hodad]

2 hours ago, Black Dog said:

So Obama made you racist.

That's the long and short of it. After seeing a Black man in the Oval Office half of Republicans just lost their minds and dropped the facade. Suddenly someone as previously unelectable as Trump became electable. No more pretense of decency.

Edited August 30 by Hodad

[myata]

25 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Democracy in of itself is simply the tyranny of the majority

That is absolutely not what it is, no matter how authoritatively one tries to argue otherwise. A functional modern democracy has principles, founding laws, regular laws, checks and balances, independent oversight by the society.