The horrors of abortion which our governments support

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, User said:

your 24 week thing?

Which denies her the right to an abortion? Am confused.

17 minutes ago, User said:

but just not enough to care to do anything. 

Other than respect her rights to have one. Vote accordingly.

If thats nothing, then I will keep doing "nothing", respecting womens rights.

17 minutes ago, User said:

That is not what I said. 

Insinuated.

18 minutes ago, User said:

I was pointing out you don't support a woman's right to an abortion either.

By respecting her lawful right to have one? Am confused.

18 minutes ago, User said:

You support a very narrow timeframe

So respect her rights to having one. Unless am missing something. 

[User]

20 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Which denies her the right to an abortion? Am confused.

What if they want an abortion at 25 weeks?

21 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Other than respect her rights to have one. Vote accordingly.

If thats nothing, then I will keep doing "nothing", respecting womens rights.

Oh, well, you didn't really mean it when you said:

"I don't like the idea of abortion."
 

22 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

By respecting her lawful right to have one? Am confused.

Not at 25 weeks.

23 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

So respect her rights to having one. Unless am missing something. 

Not at 25 weeks. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, User said:

What if they want an abortion at 25 weeks?

What if the teenager is a brat, and the mother wants an abortion at 14 years of age?

Same logic. 

1 hour ago, User said:

Oh, well, you didn't really mean it when you said

You don't need to like an idea to respect it. I am not religious, I fully respect my wife's faith, and go as far as supporting her by attending church with her.

Still confused as to what point you're trying to make.

1 hour ago, User said:

Not at 25 weeks.

Are they legal in Canada at 25 weeks? If they are, guess what. I would support one.

I will reiterate. I am in full support of a womans lawful right to abortion. 

You're grasping at straws here, and have no argument.

Now, please insert the 5 years of age comparison, and instead of moving the goal posts, taking the team to another continent where they will need to learn a new language or have to quit pro sports.

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

Listen, I know the RC system is a dark oppressive system.  I oppose it completely.  The problems you describe would exist in RC countries.  Maybe you don't realize it but Biblical Christianity or Protestantism is entirely different.  This could be a long discussion, but might be necessary.  I could give you lots of information that you are probably not aware of.

Romanism is a dark system of control of everyone's life.  Control of marriage does affect women badly when they are in an abusive relationship.  There are a some Reformed Churches that try to control or stop people getting a divorce, but I strongly disagree with them.  In fact I attended one once for over 20 years.  I got into a major disagreement over the subject of divorce because I believe people should be free to divorce in a hopeless marriage where there is abuse.

But Protestant Churches that are Biblical don't stick their noses into that area and just leave it to the couples themselves do decide what to do.  Some Christians would be available for counseling if that would help a individual or couple. 

People need support, not condemnation and control.

You're talking to somebody who feels for people who are struggling in life and need some friendship and encouragement.  That is what I believe.  I know this sounds good in theory and is not always easy to do or implement.  But that is the way it should be.  People with differences should be able to at least sit down together over a coffee and discuss things peacefully.  We may have to agree to disagree about some things.

The darkest countries would be the countries that are predominately Roman Catholic.  Perhaps you should read about and study the Reformation.  That was a hundred years of struggle for some countries to break free of the RC church system and become Protestant.  They developed democracy and human rights.  The RC Church hated that and fought against Biblical Christianity for the past 500 years.   Actually they opposed Bible believers longer than that.  Bible believers were hunted down during the middle ages or dark ages and burned at the stake or tortured or imprisoned.  Some sects were annihilated.  They were considered as heretics.  That is why we had the Holy Roman Inquisition for four or five hundred years.  To eliminate the heretics.  You either towed the line or were punished or eliminated.  I have books and can point you to some that tell the truth about what things were like under the RC system.

I can understand why some people would oppose the RC Church on some subjects, but it is a mistake to support abortion because one opposes the oppression of the RC Church system.

Protestantism brought freedom and rights for people, but that does not mean they endorse anarchy or immorality such as abortion and other things.  The rights of people should be respected.  But there are certain things that just don't fit into the definition of rights.  Nobody is forced to hold a certain religious belief as in Romanism over the past 1,500 years.  But society has standards of right and wrong.  Liberalism believes immorality is an individual choice.  Liberalism is a rejection of many historic Judeo-Christian beliefs in the Bible.  But there are things that affect other people negatively and should not be supported.  Abortion is one of those things.  Pre-marital sex is another liberal thing that leads to trouble and also contributes to abortion.

 

I have to speak out here as a Catholic.  You can find plenty of examples of Protestant oppression of Catholics during the Reformation.  Don’t forget how Henry required that priests sign an oath to his church.  He had his best friend Thomas Moore executed, to say nothing of his wives.  Catholics weren’t afforded voting and property rights and were generally treated as second class citizens in the British Empire until the early to mid twentieth century.  Don’t worry, Catholic countries went after Protestants too.

Getting an annulment actually isn’t that hard and there are many reasons one can get one, such as immaturity or disagreement over whether to have kids.

On the abortion front Catholics are your allies.  The ideal for Catholics is to keep birth natural within marriage.  It may seem restrictive, but there are good reasons for these rules, as birth control can fail, abortion does end a human life, even if it’s in early stages, and ideally children should be wanted, planned, and had within a marriage between a man and woman who love each other.  Anything less requires an excuse.

That’s not to say that people don’t sin or that it’s for people to judge them.  I simply state that there are good reasons for these rules.

[blackbird]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I have to speak out here as a Catholic.

Yes, I understand where you're coming from.  It would be pointless to try to debate the history.  I am not saying there were no atrocities against Catholics in history, but I think the overwhelming oppression was by Rome because they controlled much of Europe for most of the past 1,500 years.  They had the backing and support of kings, church clergy, priests in the various countries of Europe.  They controlled everyone's lives to the extreme degree.  You should look up Avro Manhattan and read some of his books on the internet at archive dot org.  The books are out of print now and very rare.  But many of them can be read on the internet.  Check the book "The Vatican Billions" and see how they accumulated such great wealth over the past 1,500 years.  When the Reformation occurred, it led to wars as countries struggled to be independent.  Wars lasting about a hundred years. 

There is lots of information in many books on the history of what went on through the centuries.

Part of what fueled the Reformation was the discovery by Martin Luther that what Rome was teaching and doing, selling indulgences to get time off in purgatory for sins committed in the past and in the future.  The whole system of Rome was discovered to be unbiblical.  The Bible says salvation is not by works or sacraments or indulgences or anything but by faith alone in Christ alone.  The church cannot give a person salvation and a person cannot earn it by his good works.  That was the central message of Martin Luther from the Bible.

[User]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

What if the teenager is a brat, and the mother wants an abortion at 14 years of age?

Same logic. 

Nope. You are the one constantly saying you respect their right to an abortion... but you don't when you say only to 24 weeks. You only kind of respect it. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Still confused as to what point you're trying to make.

I already made it:

"but just not enough to care to do anything. "

All you had to say was, yes. 

 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Are they legal in Canada at 25 weeks? If they are, guess what. I would support one.

I will reiterate. I am in full support of a womans lawful right to abortion. 

This is all circular. What if we change that to 1 week? Then that is the lawful timeframe. You respect that too?

 

[Zeitgeist]

16 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes, I understand where you're coming from.  It would be pointless to try to debate the history.  I am not saying there were no atrocities against Catholics in history, but I think the overwhelming oppression was by Rome because they controlled much of Europe for most of the past 1,500 years.  They had the backing and support of kings, church clergy, priests in the various countries of Europe.  They controlled everyone's lives to the extreme degree.  You should look up Avro Manhattan and read some of his books on the internet at archive dot org.  The books are out of print now and very rare.  But many of them can be read on the internet.  Check the book "The Vatican Billions" and see how they accumulated such great wealth over the past 1,500 years.  When the Reformation occurred, it led to wars as countries struggled to be independent.  Wars lasting about a hundred years. 

There is lots of information in many books on the history of what went on through the centuries.

Part of what fueled the Reformation was the discovery by Martin Luther that what Rome was teaching and doing, selling indulgences to get time off in purgatory for sins committed in the past and in the future.  The whole system of Rome was discovered to be unbiblical.  The Bible says salvation is not by works or sacraments or indulgences or anything but by faith alone in Christ alone.  The church cannot give a person salvation and a person cannot earn it by his good works.  That was the central message of Martin Luther from the Bible.

Well I won’t argue your theology regarding faith not deeds, etc.  I agree that people in the Church did many bad things, but remember that almost all Christians were Catholics until about 500 years ago after Luther’s nailing of the theses.  He said the devil taught him reformation on his deathbed.  Anyway, agree to disagree.  I also agree that selling indulgences was wrong and that practice ended.

The big problems today are not in most cases Catholic versus Protestant but rather Christian versus everything else. We see this as the Christian West has basically let its culture be neglected and replaced by lesser forms of political ideology, atheism, and paganism.  Muslims aren’t letting their beliefs and cultures disappear.  On the contrary, they are expanding in what’s left of the so-called Christian West.  I won’t even get into the new rainbow pride state ideology which is insisting on supremacy over all other beliefs and inserting itself in our education systems.

Soon we may have no Christian leadership to turn to, so we may find ourselves caught between rainbows and mosques, lamenting our once strong Judeo-Christian values and civilization, which was the greatest civilization.  

Edited August 16 by Zeitgeist

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, User said:

You are the one constantly saying you respect their right to an abortion

Am confused as to how I do not.

20 minutes ago, User said:

You only kind of respect it

Correct, as long as its lawfully done. Am confused as to how this rejects the right to the abortion to begin with, which is your wobbly argument.

22 minutes ago, User said:

I already made it

Which is?

22 minutes ago, User said:

This is all circular.

How so?

 

[blackbird]

21 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The big problems today are not in most cases Catholic versus Protestant but rather Christian versus everything else.

Yes, I understand what you are saying.  But you should be aware that Catholicism won't help you receive salvation.  That is why it is important to understand the subject.  Do you have a Bible?  You should be getting your information on religion from the Bible, not from fallible men who wrote catechism, etc.

There may be a false religious system developing to create a one-world religion too.  Many are working to bring all Christianity back under the control of Rome.  That will not be Christianity either.

As I said before Avro Manhattan wrote quite a number of books on the Vatican in the world.

There has been a struggle still going on between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland as they have been trying to drive the Protestants out of Northern Ireland and bring it under the control of the Catholic Republic of Ireland.  The I.R.A. have been at the centre of it.  You can read the book on this called "Catholic Terror in Ireland" by Avro Manhattan.

Catholic Terror in Ireland : Avro Manhattan : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Edited August 16 by blackbird

[blackbird]

24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The big problems today are not in most cases Catholic versus Protestant but rather Christian versus everything else.

According to the information in Avro Manhattan's books there has been a lot of serious things going on in the 20th century involving the Vatican.  Here is another book I just discovered.

CATHOLIC TERROR TODAY AVRO MANATTAN(1969) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[blackbird]

30 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The big problems today are not in most cases Catholic versus Protestant but rather Christian versus everything else

Here is a part of the Forward to the book Catholic Terror Today.

quote

To the readers of the paper-back editions:

This book has been criticised, condemned, banned, mutilated, destroyed and even burned as frequently as it has been quoted, recommended, reproduced and praised in many parts of the world. Because of the events and revelations it describes. These have never been published before as a co¬ herent, integrated narrative of contemporary history.

Catholic, Protestant and lay publishers alike, not to mention the Press, Radio and Television Agencies, have main¬ tained a mighty wall of silence around many of the facts mentioned in this work. Several of which, although by now a matter of public knowledge, have more often than not been purposely distorted and greatly minimised, when not partially suppressed or even ignored altogether.

We have heard a great deal about modem Dictatorships. About their curtailment of liberties, their concentration camps and their warmongering policies which were to cul¬ minate in the outbreak of the Second World War.

Yet we have heard next to nothing about the exertions of an ecclesiastical Authoritarianism wielding as much in¬ fluence as the sundry contemporary Dictatorships of the Right, of the Left and of the Centre. We are referring to that of the Catholic Church. Engaged upon the promotion of mighty political interests behind the walls of the Vatican and as responsible for the catastrophic events of the last few decades as are the paramount nations of the Earth.  unquote

CATHOLIC TERROR TODAY AVRO MANATTAN(1969) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

This might explain why most of his books are "out of print" and the ones that do exist, are extremely rare and expensive now.  It wouldn't surprise me if Rome has worked hard to ban them.

[blackbird]

53 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well I won’t argue your theology regarding faith not deeds, etc.  I agree that people in the Church did many bad things, but remember that almost all Christians were Catholics until about 500 years ago after Luther’s nailing of the theses.  He said the devil taught him reformation on his deathbed.  Anyway, agree to disagree.  I also agree that selling indulgences was wrong and that practice ended.

The big problems today are not in most cases Catholic versus Protestant but rather Christian versus everything else. We see this as the Christian West has basically let its culture be neglected and replaced by lesser forms of political ideology, atheism, and paganism.  Muslims aren’t letting their beliefs and cultures disappear.  On the contrary, they are expanding in what’s left of the so-called Christian West.  I won’t even get into the new rainbow pride state ideology which is insisting on supremacy over all other beliefs and inserting itself in our education systems.

Soon we may have no Christian leadership to turn to, so we may find ourselves caught between rainbows and mosques, lamenting our once strong Judeo-Christian values and civilization, which was the greatest civilization.  

While it is true what you say about the Christian west being under attack by these various other cultures and beliefs, we cannot ignore what has been going on in the world with the Vatican.

"

The ordinary individual cannot accept as yet the startling facts that only a few years back, for instance, the Catholic Church advocated forcible conversions, helped to erect con¬ centration camps, and was responsible for the sufferings, torturing and execution of hundreds of thousands of non-Catholics. Deeds coolly perpetrated by her lay and eccles¬ iastic members. Furthermore, that many of such atrocities were carried out personally by some of her Catholic priests and even monks.

One of the main purposes of this book is to relate where, when and by whom such atrocities were committed.

Many will reject as sectarian falsification, if not pure invention, what have been justly reckoned the greatest religious massacres of our century. They will not be the first to have done so. It took the author almost half a decade of painstaking investigation before he accepted what seemed unbelievable.

The result is this account, documented from as authoritative and as varied sources as possible. Among them, people with whom the present writer became personally acquainted. Some of these played no mean role in the religious, political and military events herein narrated. Others were eye¬ witnesses. Indeed, not a few even victims of the incredible atrocities sanctioned and promoted by the Catholic Church."

CATHOLIC TERROR TODAY AVRO MANATTAN(1969) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The fact is people generally get very worked up about their religion and will do horrible things to their fellow man in the name of it.

 

[User]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Am confused

Yes you are. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Correct, as long as its lawfully done.

I am glad you agree with me, that as long as the choice is lawfully done BEFORE a woman gets pregnant, that is within the law and to be respected. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Which

The one I just said. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

How so?

Because its a circle. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, User said:

BEFORE

After. Thanks for lie # 300.

[User]

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

Thanks

You are welcome!

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Yes, I understand what you are saying.  But you should be aware that Catholicism won't help you receive salvation.  That is why it is important to understand the subject.  Do you have a Bible?  You should be getting your information on religion from the Bible, not from fallible men who wrote catechism, etc.

There may be a false religious system developing to create a one-world religion too.  Many are working to bring all Christianity back under the control of Rome.  That will not be Christianity either.

As I said before Avro Manhattan wrote quite a number of books on the Vatican in the world.

There has been a struggle still going on between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland as they have been trying to drive the Protestants out of Northern Ireland and bring it under the control of the Catholic Republic of Ireland.  The I.R.A. have been at the centre of it.  You can read the book on this called "Catholic Terror in Ireland" by Avro Manhattan.

Catholic Terror in Ireland : Avro Manhattan : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I hear you, but I’m quite close to these topics.  I’ve studied and taught religion in my past, not that that makes me an expert.  I would simply say that our understanding of the divine is limited, but we do have scripture/books.  I also recognize that there are many interpretations.  I’ve come to the conclusion that family, prayerful reflection on the sacred, and not getting lost in vices are important in life.  The West is a very confused place right now.  From increasingly permissive assisted suicide to our unlimited abortion laws to our narcissistic obsessions with self-indulgence, it’s a very different world from the one I knew as a young man — and I’m only middle-aged.  I think the world is worse than it was just several years ago.  I see this as the result of moral rot.  There’s a fear of taking a Christian stance and a capitulation to dubious lifestyles, identities, and choices.  The dubious values are being pushed and in some cases required through legislation.  

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

While it is true what you say about the Christian west being under attack by these various other cultures and beliefs, we cannot ignore what has been going on in the world with the Vatican.

"

The ordinary individual cannot accept as yet the startling facts that only a few years back, for instance, the Catholic Church advocated forcible conversions, helped to erect con¬ centration camps, and was responsible for the sufferings, torturing and execution of hundreds of thousands of non-Catholics. Deeds coolly perpetrated by her lay and eccles¬ iastic members. Furthermore, that many of such atrocities were carried out personally by some of her Catholic priests and even monks.

One of the main purposes of this book is to relate where, when and by whom such atrocities were committed.

Many will reject as sectarian falsification, if not pure invention, what have been justly reckoned the greatest religious massacres of our century. They will not be the first to have done so. It took the author almost half a decade of painstaking investigation before he accepted what seemed unbelievable.

The result is this account, documented from as authoritative and as varied sources as possible. Among them, people with whom the present writer became personally acquainted. Some of these played no mean role in the religious, political and military events herein narrated. Others were eye¬ witnesses. Indeed, not a few even victims of the incredible atrocities sanctioned and promoted by the Catholic Church."

CATHOLIC TERROR TODAY AVRO MANATTAN(1969) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The fact is people generally get very worked up about their religion and will do horrible things to their fellow man in the name of it.

 

I disagree.  No the Catholic Church didn’t create concentration camps.  Christendom was involved in the Crusades much as the Muslim world was.  The Catholic Church has played an important role in liberating countries from communism and corrupt governments. Consider JP2’s involvement in the Solidarity movement in Poland or Archbishop Romero’s speaking out against military dictatorship.

Anyway, the Catholic Church has many challenges that go to the highest levels of the organization.  I have been very critical of what appears to be infiltration within the Church and perhaps even the papacy itself.  I’m not going to enter into more debate on that subject, because I also think the Protestant churches are largely in states of collapse.  I certainly see rot in these organizations much as I see it in universities, government, and the wider culture.

Edited August 16 by Zeitgeist

[Guest]

2 hours ago, User said:

You are the one constantly saying you respect their right to an abortion... but you don't when you say only to 24 weeks.

You're essentially trying to pull a strawman. I make it clear I support lawful abortions. I provided cites. You then compare lawful abortions to killing fully grown kids.

Fetuses can't feel pain up to a certain point. Cites provided. To you? Then this means fully grown kids being numbed, could be murdered. No difference.

Canada lawfully allows abortions  up until a certain amount of weeks. I support this.

You then feel whats the difference between doing it near or post birth. What about a few weeks after the lawful point. months?

Disagreement is not supporting her right, because a right should be whenever she wants, vs the lawful ability to do so.

Your debate style has nothing to do with factual, with data. You just want to lie and conflict your way to some type of satisfaction of a circular argument. You've done so with all posters in this thread just about, while bringing nothing tangible to either of them.

You have the maturity of a 5 year old, ironically. 

Your debate style leans heavily on hooking someone into a strawman, as you otherwise stand zero chance debating on the topic at hand.

You spinning this, or strawmanning your way out of this, proves my point.

Edited August 16 by Perspektiv

[Guest]

5 hours ago, User said:

What if they want an abortion at 25 weeks?

See?

5 hours ago, User said:

Oh, well, you didn't really mean it when you said:

"I don't like the idea of abortion."

This is your idea of schooling me.

5 hours ago, User said:

Not at 25 weeks.

Again, strawman. You can't beat me on the logic of a lawful abortion being acceptable, so you deflect.

[Guest]

On 8/15/2024 at 10:51 AM, User said:

More like I have too much intelligence...

This is your idea of schooling people. 

Again, wanting to highlight your posting style. Nothing to do with debate.

7 hours ago, User said:

Doesn't seem like it. You can't even agree on showing a woman an ultrasound

Logic to you is shaming women, while telling me I don't respect their rights.

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I disagree.  No the Catholic Church didn’t create concentration camps.

We're not talking about the crusades.  This is 20th century history.

Read chapter 8.  

CATHOLIC TERROR TODAY AVRO MANATTAN(1969) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

We all need to face up to the truth of this world.  Not doing so would mean we are living in a fantasyland or make-believe.

 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I also think the Protestant churches are largely in states of collapse.

For many of them that may be true.

However, remember, truth is not a popular thing and as Jesus said, many are called but few are chosen.

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 No the Catholic Church didn’t create concentration camps.

Wikipedia does mention genocide that went on, but doesn't give much detail about who was behind it. 

"This nation lasted from 1918 to 1941, when it was invaded by the Axis powers during World War II, which provided support to the Croatian fascist Ustaše (founded in 1929), whose regime carried out the genocide of Serbs, Jews and Roma by executing people in concentration camps and committing other systematic and mass crimes inside its territory.^[9]"

-Wikipedia

^"The Independent State of Croatia (Serbo-Croatian: Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH) was a World War II–era puppet state of Nazi Germany^[6][7][8] and Fascist Italy. It was established in parts of occupied Yugoslavia on 10 April 1941, after the invasion by the Axis powers. Its territory consisted mostly of modern-day Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as some parts of modern-day Serbia and Slovenia, but also excluded many Croat-populated areas in Dalmatia (until late 1943), Istria, and Međimurje regions (which today are part of Croatia).

During its entire existence, the NDH was governed as a one-party state by the fascist Ustaša organization. The Ustaše was led by the Poglavnik, Ante Pavelić.^{[note 2]} The regime targeted Serbs, Jews and Roma as part of a large-scale campaign of genocide, as well as anti-fascist or dissident Croats and Bosnian Muslims.^[9] "  

-Wikipedia

To see the actual details of this and find out who was involved, one would have to read parts of the book I mentioned by Avro Manhattan.

The page I posted with the photo says this:

"The Nazis, who for a time were posted in Croatia,. were so horrified at the Ustashi atrocities that they set up special commissions to investigate them. The Orthodox Church of Serbia, in fact, appealed directly to the Nazi General Dulkeman to intervene and stop the Ustashi horrors.

The Germans and the Italians managed to restrain the Ustashi while these were under their supervision. When the Nazis left Croatia, however, the Ustashi multiplied their atrocities, unreprimanded by the Government. Since the latter's policy was one of total elimination of the Orthodox Serbian population via forcible conversions, expulsion, or straightforward massacre.

Victims were executed in groups without trial on bridges and then thrown into the river. In May 1941 the Ustashi beseiged Glina. Having gathered together all the Orthodox males of over fifteen years of age from Karlovac, Sisak and Petrinja, they drove them outside the town and killed 600 of them with guns, knives and sledge hammers."

 

Edited August 17 by blackbird

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

No the Catholic Church didn’t create concentration camps.

This is from Wikipedia:

" Phayer wrote that just after becoming dictator of Croatia and "after receiving a papal blessing in 1941, Ante Pavelić and his Ustaša lieutenants unleashed an unspeakable genocide in their new country."[9]"

Catholic clergy involvement with the Ustaše - Wikipedia

Photo of Ustashi leader Pavelic meeting with Archbishop Stepinac in 1941.  - Wikipedia

 

Edited August 17 by blackbird

[herbie]

He hates Catholics as they're supposed to confess their sins to the priest, whereas he can't even admit them to himself.

7 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

What if the teenager is a brat, and the mother wants an abortion at 14 years of age?

The wife used to threaten the kids with "retroactive abortion rights". They asked their teacher and she almost fell out of her chair laughing. Said she was highly tempted to tell them it was true.