The federal government plans to sell a 30% stake of Trans Mountain pipeline to indigenous people

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

Giving them a say about their lands costs nothing.

Actually various bands claim the whole geographic area of B.C.  Yet they are only roughly 5% of the population.  So what about the other 95% of the population that live in various parts of B.C.?  Do they have no rights?  It is far more complex than you seem to think.  They don't own the thousands of square kilometers that they claim as "traditional territory".  There are many non-native people whose life and livelihoods depend on the land in various occupations.  What about them?

The non-natives of Canada have been providing housing, water systems, support, and social services to various FNs, bands and villages and have spend billions of dollars on them.  Is this to go on in perpetuity?  And now you think we must just hand over lands that they claim as their own even though there is no proof of anything.  Or we are to pay them a percentage of profits from natural resource extraction when they have no ownership in the land or companies.  Nice to be so privileged.  Kind of like a Prince in Saudi Arabia.

Edited July 24 by blackbird

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No doubt something like that - a total sweetheart deal where the money is lent to them for nothing, to buy something we financed, where they'll pay off the loan at guaranteed rates and zero risk of loss. 

Sounds about right.  

In the meantime Canada has had a pretty sweet deal exploiting someone else's resources for next to nothing for a century and a half.

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

In the meantime Canada has had a pretty sweet deal exploiting someone else's resources for next to nothing for a century and a half.

🥱

We should probably throw more money at it and try more things that we absolutely know do not work and cannot work.  

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

🥱

We should probably throw more money at it and try more things that we absolutely know do not work and cannot work.  

I guess it's like PP says, everything is broken. Meanwhile treaties remain one of the biggest economic drivers in my region.

[Moonbox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

I guess it's like PP says, everything is broken. Meanwhile treaties remain one of the biggest economic drivers in my region.

Treaties do?  🤔

 

[Nationalist]

10 hours ago, blackbird said:

You think all the land the pipeline is on belongs to them?  Obviously you don't have a clue.

If you think the whole country belongs to them, you better pack your bags and move somewhere else.  You will be paying FNs rent to live here if we followed your ideas.

Dude that's not my quote.

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

15 hours ago, blackbird said:

You think all the land the pipeline is on belongs to them?  Obviously you don't have a clue.

If you think the whole country belongs to them, you better pack your bags and move somewhere else.  You will be paying FNs rent to live here if we followed your ideas.

Dude that's not my quote.

Nationalist, 

You are correct.  My comment was meant to be directed to herbie.   I apologize.  He seems to think the whole province belongs to FNs.

[blackbird]

10 hours ago, eyeball said:

Meanwhile treaties remain one of the biggest economic drivers in my region.

Really?  How do treaties help the economy?  They are deals negotiated between FNs and the provincial government, which end by the government paying FN a lot of money, land, and the legal costs involved and the settlement costs.  All born by the taxpayers.

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Treaties do?  🤔

 

What they lead to does - which is money being spent and invested locally.

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

What they lead to does - which is money being spent and invested locally.

You could say that's in spite of, rather than because of. 

That is, of course, unless you're saying that where you live gets a lot of government money on account of the indigenous pandering.  In that case, good for you I guess.  It's not so grand for the RoC.   

Edited July 24 by Moonbox

[eyeball]

32 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

You could say that's in spite of, rather than because of. 

That is, of course, unless you're saying that where you live gets a lot of government money on account of the indigenous pandering.  In that case, good for you I guess.  It's not so grand for the RoC.   

Yeah well we're all kind of increasingly on our own that way aren't we?

The ROC looked the other way when Ottawa dismantled local existing commercial fisheries for the sake of settling treaties...and of course caving to US pressure to keep Canadian boats off fish bound for US...then US fishermen all went to Alaska to catch fish bound for Canada.

Not a geat deal for the ROC but wtf does the ROC know about the migration of fish or fishermen?

The more Canadian indigenous people who go fishing now will be a boon to Canada's economy.

Edited July 24 by eyeball

[Moonbox]

15 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yeah well we're all kind of increasingly on our own that way aren't we?

Pork barrel politics and subsidies are always appreciated by those getting the money, aren't they?  

15 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The ROC looked the other way when Ottawa dismantled local existing commercial fisheries for the sake of settling treaties...and of course caving to US pressure to keep Canadian boats off fish bound for US...then US fishermen all went to Alaska to catch fish bound for Canada

Not sure what you're talking about here, but are we pretending the fishing industry hasn't been heavily subsidized for decades?

[eyeball]

 

 

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Pork barrel politics and subsidies are always appreciated by those getting the money, aren't they?

Always but there are often also lots of people who get hurt and that don't get any money.

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Not sure what you're talking about here, but are we pretending the fishing industry hasn't been heavily subsidized for decades?

Is there a natural resource industry that hasn't? There's an awful lot of lobbying and influencing associated with that too. Taxpayers can often get a stick with an even dirtier end when that gets excessive.

[Moonbox]

15 hours ago, eyeball said:

Always but there are often also lots of people who get hurt and that don't get any money.

...which in this case, is the RoC.  

15 hours ago, eyeball said:

Is there a natural resource industry that hasn't? There's an awful lot of lobbying and influencing associated with that too. Taxpayers can often get a stick with an even dirtier end when that gets excessive.

Probably not, but I'm an equal-opportunity critic of subsidizing non-viable business/communities.  The government just gave $10B to build a battery plant an hour and a half away from me, and we'll likely never recover that investment.  Much like the Ontario government did with solar subsidies over a decade ago, that industry only existed because of subsidies, and it disappeared when they ended.  It's dumb.   

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Probably not, but I'm an equal-opportunity critic of subsidizing non-viable business/communities. 

I guess I care more about whatever my community or region can get and, less about the ROC. I really don't get any sense that the ROC gives a crap about me or mine so...

It's the times we live in I think. Things seem unanchored to anything worth staying anchored too and we need to get as much as we can before the lack of sustainability becomes overwhelming.

Maybe it's the empty grocery store shelves and dysfunction surrounding a cyberattack and the Microsoft update crash on top of that that's affected things around here.

Things seem to be breaking down faster.

[Moonbox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

I guess I care more about whatever my community or region can get and, less about the ROC.

Well you've made that abundantly clear.   

Gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme.  

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

I really don't get any sense that the ROC gives a crap about me or mine so...

That's an interesting attitude considering how many winters you've spent on EI on the RoC's dime over the years.  🙄

 

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme

There was a whole bunch of give give give too.

6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

That's an interesting attitude considering how many winters you've spent on EI on the RoC's dime over the years. 

Not as many as you think - a couple winters during the worst years but it felt more like compensation for some of the lousiest fisheries and environmental mismanagement on the planet. There was a time you could fish pretty much year around hereabouts.

You're saying your money is completely odour free? You're a Canadian too after all 

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme. 

Speaking of which...wait until the ROC has to pick up the tab for dealing with 1000’s of old derelict and abandoned boats scattered and sunk along the coast. The potential cost could be hundreds of millions - another consequence of poorly thought out management across multiple levels. None of it ever dovetails together in any effective never mind efficient manner.

 

I cut my old tub up into pieces and sent it to the landfill where it belongs. It cost me thousands.

[Moonbox]

On 7/25/2024 at 7:09 PM, eyeball said:

There was a whole bunch of give give give too.

If you say so.  I just think it's a really shitty attitude, and don't see how you can critique other people's politics when you've more or less declared that the only thing you care about is what you get from the government.  

If you allow everyone else (like the RoC, or even the rest of the world) that same runway, who are you to criticize big polluters etc?  

On 7/25/2024 at 7:39 PM, eyeball said:

Speaking of which...wait until the ROC has to pick up the tab for dealing with 1000’s of old derelict and abandoned boats scattered and sunk along the coast.

At least you're staying on-brand.  The RoC has to pay for all of the junkers their owners' have walked away from?  I'd say track down the owners and fine them.  

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

If you say so.  I just think it's a really shitty attitude, and don't see how you can critique other people's politics when you've more or less declared that the only thing you care about is what you get from the government.  

I was in bad mood. It's a struggle some days to maintain a positive attitude. 

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

If you allow everyone else (like the RoC, or even the rest of the world) that same runway, who are you to criticize big polluters etc?  

Every community for itself does resonate with everyone for themself though doesn't it? It also jives with the idea that the pursuit of self interest is the surest path forward. And especially if the world becomes even more reduced to a dog eat dog state.

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

At least you're staying on-brand.  The RoC has to pay for all of the junkers their owners' have walked away from?  I'd say track down the owners and fine them. 

Most of the old fishermen that owned the abandoned commercial boats are dead. There's plenty of other old junkers on their last legs though. They're becoming especially popular with otherwise homeless people on the coast where's there's all sorts of little floating communities rafted up alongside one another now.

We've all heard of micro-plastics getting into the environment and soon it'll be micro-glass given the nature of more modern boat building materials. The particles of fibreglass don't just contaminate the organisms that ingest them they also slice them up.

This btw is definitely a big increasingly global issue.

Edited July 30 by eyeball

[Five of swords]

On 7/22/2024 at 1:08 PM, blackbird said:

The federal government seems bent on perpetuating and building a country along racial lines.

We know this will be almost a give away.  No FN group has the billions of dollars to purchase even 30% of the what this pipeline is worth.  So it would be a huge gift at the expense of Canadian taxpayers who are paying tens of billions of dollars for the pipeline.   Is this really fair for the taxpayers who rightly own it in the name of the federal government?

news item on energynow website    

energynow.ca/2024/06/trans-mountain-looking-to-sell-30-stake-to-indigenous-groups-alberta-premier-says/#:~:text=Canada’s%20federal%20government%20is%20looking%20to%20sell%20a,pipeline%20system%20to%20indigenous%20owners%2C%20Alberta’s%20premier%20said.

Politics is never about what is fair.

 

If I were indigenous, I would demand a 100% stake and be outraged in the government refuses. After all, Canada does admit to centuries of war crimes and genocide against the indigenous people. In fact, I think I would argue that Canada owes more to the indigenous people than Germany does to jews, because of the duration and the magnitude of the genocide. Would Trudeau have a clever response to that?

And no, I wouldn't demand such a thing because I think it would be fair. I would demand it because I would get more money. And because frankly Canada is too weak to deny me. It just has zero willpower as a country, so somebody is going to loot the country. Why not me?