robosmith Posted July 11, 2024 Report Posted July 11, 2024 If Trump Wins He Will Abandon NATO Quote “I don’t give a shit about NATO.” Thus did former President Donald Trump once express his feelings about America’s oldest and strongest military alliance. Not that this statement, made in the presence of John Bolton, the national security adviser at the time, came as a surprise. Long before he was a political candidate, Trump questioned the value of American alliances. Of Europeans, he once wrote that “their conflicts are not worth American lives. Pulling back from Europe would save this country millions of dollars annually.” NATO, founded in 1949 and supported for three-quarters of a century by Democrats, Republicans, and independents alike, has long been a particular focus of Trump’s ire. As president, Trump threatened to withdraw from NATO many times—including, infamously, at the 2018 NATO summit. But during Trump’s time in office, the withdrawal never happened. That was because someone was always there to talk him out of it. Bolton says he did; Jim Mattis, John Kelly, Rex Tillerson, Mike Pompeo, and even Mike Pence are thought to have done so too. But they didn’t change his mind. And if Trump is reelected in 2024, none of those people will be in the White House. All of them have broken with the former president, in some cases dramatically, and there isn’t another pool of Republican analysts who understand Russia and Europe, because most of them either signed statements opposing him in 2016 or criticized him after 2020. In a second term, Trump would be surrounded by people who either share his dislike of American security alliances or don’t know anything about them and don’t care. This time, the ill will that Trump has always felt toward American allies would likely manifest itself in a clear policy change. “The damage he did in his first term was reparable,” Bolton told me. “The damage in the second term would be irreparable.” Trump doesn't understand that if we withdraw from NATO, all that NATO foreign military spending will go ELSEWHERE. And Europe will be weaker, thus inviting more Putin INVASIONS. Like the true SKINFLINT that he is, Trump is always chintzing pennies at the cost of mega dollars to the US economy. Quote
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 1 hour ago, robosmith said: If Trump Wins He Will Abandon NATO Trump doesn't understand that if we withdraw from NATO, all that NATO foreign military spending will go ELSEWHERE. And Europe will be weaker, thus inviting more Putin INVASIONS. Like the true SKINFLINT that he is, Trump is always chintzing pennies at the cost of mega dollars to the US economy. Trump got NATO nations to spend more on defense. Almost all of his ire to NATO is that we spend more $$$ than they do. We hold up our end of the bargain, and they are not. Trump made NATO stronger. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
Hodad Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 1 hour ago, robosmith said: If Trump Wins He Will Abandon NATO Trump doesn't understand that if we withdraw from NATO, all that NATO foreign military spending will go ELSEWHERE. And Europe will be weaker, thus inviting more Putin INVASIONS. Like the true SKINFLINT that he is, Trump is always chintzing pennies at the cost of mega dollars to the US economy. Or, perhaps, he does understand that. Quote
robosmith Posted July 12, 2024 Author Report Posted July 12, 2024 1 hour ago, User said: Trump got NATO nations to spend more on defense. Almost all of his ire to NATO is that we spend more $$$ than they do. We hold up our end of the bargain, and they are not. It went up under Trump and then back down. And then spiked much greater under Biden. 1 hour ago, User said: Trump made NATO stronger. He sure made Putin happy. And Biden made Putin mad by expanding NATO (Norway and Sweden) on his border. Quote
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 48 minutes ago, robosmith said: It went up under Trump and then back down. And then spiked much greater under Biden. Gee... I wonder what happened around that time as to why Europe was contributing more $$$ to defense spending... hmm... Hint: It was not Biden that did anything 50 minutes ago, robosmith said: He sure made Putin happy. And Biden made Putin mad by expanding NATO (Norway and Sweden) on his border. How did he make Putin happy? You guys live liberal la la land in your brain. Putin invaded on Biden's watch, not on Trumps. Trump threatened Putin. Norway was a founding member of NATO, they did not join under Biden. Sweden joined NATO because Russia invaded Ukraine. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
myata Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 11 hours ago, User said: Putin invaded on Biden's watch, not on Trumps. What's wrong with your brains people? Why is it hard to check the facts? Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 by occupying Crimea and other territories. Trump was a president from 2016 to 2022 and did nothing to stop it. Before our eyes is the result of following the lying mob: one has to part with all, everything that defines them: reason; principles; dignity and integrity; objectivity and reality. One can only repeat the lies. Reality doesn't matter. Well, it's good that he's saying it and we can talk about it. In the history, people played with lying aggressive fascist-leaning populism for any number of reasons: recessions; starvation; absolute despair. So if anyone is thinking of trying it out of boredom or curiosity, will know exactly what they are dealing with. Not a chance in a million years; not a grain of substance to "we didn't know". Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 7 minutes ago, myata said: What's wrong with your brains people? Why is it hard to check the facts? Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 by occupying Crimea and other territories. Trump was a president from 2016 to 2022 and did nothing to stop it. The full scale invasion took place under Bidens watch... the question you should be asking is what did Obama do about Crimea when that took place on his watch. Trump did in fact do far more to stop it as he directly told Putin, threatening him, if he did any more. Trump also reversed Obama policy to not deliver anti-tank weapons to Ukraine. Obama refused to send them anti-tank missiles. So, no, you are wrong. 11 minutes ago, myata said: Before our eyes is the result of following the lying mob: one has to part with all, everything that defines them: reason; principles; dignity and integrity; objectivity and reality. One can only repeat the lies. Reality doesn't matter. Where are your principles as you sit here pushing these lies about what Trump did? Reality doesn't matter to you. 1 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
Moonbox Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 13 hours ago, User said: Trump got NATO nations to spend more on defense. Almost all of his ire to NATO is that we spend more $$$ than they do. We hold up our end of the bargain, and they are not. Trump made NATO stronger. Did Trump do it, or did the Russian invasion of Ukraine? This is one of the few areas on which I agree with Trump (especially from the Canadian perspective), but I think you give him too much credit here. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Deluge Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 15 hours ago, robosmith said: If Trump Wins He Will Abandon NATO Trump doesn't understand that if we withdraw from NATO, all that NATO foreign military spending will go ELSEWHERE. And Europe will be weaker, thus inviting more Putin INVASIONS. Like the true SKINFLINT that he is, Trump is always chintzing pennies at the cost of mega dollars to the US economy. What Trump needs to do is get NATO back in line. No more woke bullshit; just preserving life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for us and the allies. Quote
myata Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 15 minutes ago, User said: the question you should be asking is what did Obama do about Crimea Why could I not be asking both of these questions? Sure liberal elites were wrong in enticing Putin's thuggery and failing react to it as they should have. That doesn't make Trump right in any way. He was the leader of the free world for a full term. He had means to stand to Putin much stronger; and he did nothing of that. As a result, the lawful order was not restored. Further, it's him who orchestrated the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan that invited Putin to the full-scale invasion by showing him West's perceived weakness. Trump as a champion against Putin and dictator thugs - a stupid fairy tale for his brainless cult. In his own words: "genius", "savvy", "very honorable". What can you not see, right before your eyes? Why you don't see it, ask yourself. Pick one: your own eyes and brain or the Idol's. It never worked both ways. Just can't. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 7 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Did Trump do it, or did the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Trump did it. He got them to increase spending before the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Just one article regarding this from 2019: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/pressed-by-trump-over-defense-germany-says-can-pay-more-for-nato-running-costs-idUSKBN1WQ1YQ/ 19 minutes ago, Moonbox said: This is one of the few areas on which I agree with Trump (especially from the Canadian perspective), but I think you give him too much credit here. The main point of my response was not to praise Trump for all he did for NATO, it was to merely point out that most of his ire and criticism for not just NATO, but for countries in general, is that they are taking advantage of American spending on our military to provide them peace and stability in the world and for NATO, they need to pay more $$$. But, yes, he clearly did in fact get them to spend more. That is just a fact, not any specific amount of praise or credit. 22 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Did Trump do it, or did the Russian invasion of Ukraine? here is another article on it: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-16/nato-members-ramp-up-defense-spending-after-pressure-from-trump?embedded-checkout=true Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 10 minutes ago, myata said: That doesn't make Trump right in any way. He was the leader of the free world for a full term. He had means to stand to Putin much stronger; and he did nothing of that. As a result, the lawful order was not restored. You just ignored everything I told you otherwise. You are not an honest person at all. Again: "Trump did in fact do far more to stop it as he directly told Putin, threatening him, if he did any more. Trump also reversed Obama policy to not deliver anti-tank weapons to Ukraine. Obama refused to send them anti-tank missiles. " 11 minutes ago, myata said: Further, it's him who orchestrated the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan that invited Putin to the full-scale invasion by showing him West's perceived weakness. This is an outright lie. Biden was President, Biden carried out that withdrawal as he did. You have no interest in reality or truth here. 12 minutes ago, myata said: Pick one: your own eyes and brain or the Idol's. It never worked both ways. Just can't. I pick the truth and facts. You are more concerned with hating Trump than caring about being honest. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
myata Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 (edited) This is what lending one's brains to the cult does for you: you lose sanity, nothing less: "The Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan, commonly known as the United States–Taliban deal or the Doha Accord, was a peace agreement signed by the United States and the Taliban on 29 February 2020 in Doha, Qatar, to bring an end to the 2001–2021 war in Afghanistan." How far beyond the boundary of reason one has to cross to deny obvious facts? 59 minutes ago, User said: he directly told Putin, threatening him, if Seriously? And where is the evidence of that? Fat lying cheeks is all the evidence, no: the reality you live by now? Edited July 12, 2024 by myata Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Fluffypants Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 13 minutes ago, myata said: This is what lending one's brains to the cult does for you: you lose sanity, nothing less: "The Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan, commonly known as the United States–Taliban deal or the Doha Accord, was a peace agreement signed by the United States and the Taliban on 29 February 2020 in Doha, Qatar, to bring an end to the 2001–2021 war in Afghanistan." How far beyond the boundary of reason one has to cross to deny obvious facts? Seriously? And where is the evidence of that? Fat lying cheeks is all the evidence, no: the reality you live by now? The agreement had conditions of which the Taliban immediately violated. Quote
myata Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 1 minute ago, Fluffypants said: of which the Taliban immediately violated And it was still nine months to the 2020 election, and just a bit under a year to the transfer of power. Fact. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 15 minutes ago, myata said: How far beyond the boundary of reason one has to cross to deny obvious facts? You asserted that Trump orchestrated the chaotic withdrawal, not that he was the one who orchestrated the agreement to withdrawal. It is a lie to sit here blaming Trump for how Biden executed that mess. 16 minutes ago, myata said: Seriously? And where is the evidence of that? Fat lying cheeks is all the evidence, no: the reality you live by now? Yes, seriously. I deal in facts. Now I will wait for you to run away like Robo does... But he did assert that warning Russia against escalating the war “was a regular topic.” Trump canceled a meeting with Putin at the G20 in 2018 over Russia shooting at and capturing Ukrainian sailors in the Kerch Strait. A former Trump administration official, granted anonymity to detail direct presidential-level discussions, said Trump in at least one call told Putin that Russia couldn’t wade deeper into Ukraine because he had approved the transfer of anti-tank missiles to Kyiv. “It was in the context of ‘you can’t do what you did with Obama,’” the official said, noting that the annexation of Crimea and the “little green men” in the Donbas happened on that administration’s watch." https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2023/05/11/trump-used-to-talk-about-ukraine-invasion-with-putin-00096394 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 14 minutes ago, myata said: And it was still nine months to the 2020 election, and just a bit under a year to the transfer of power. Fact. The failure of the Taliban to abide by the deal was on Biden's watch. He chose to stick to the withdrawal anyway. That is a fact. 1 Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
myata Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 "Cancelled a meeting", right. Compare it to Russia being kicked out of G8, all EU associations and Obama may actually stand in a good light. 9 minutes ago, User said: You asserted that Trump orchestrated the chaotic withdrawal, He sure did just that, by making Afghan government a sitting duck. There was no ground left for the West to defend there, this was a major betrayal. I'm not saying the war should have gone on indefinitely, but capitulating to the thugs was definitely not the way to end it. And that's what he does best, and always. 12 minutes ago, User said: A former Trump administration official, granted anonymity That says everything. I said so. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 5 minutes ago, myata said: "Cancelled a meeting", right. Compare it to Russia being kicked out of G8, all EU associations and Obama may actually stand in a good light. You are ignoring everything else? You set the bar low, as you repeatedly said he did nothing. Then you said the only source I had was Trump lying... I give you that source that proves otherwise and you ignore it and mock one small part of it. He shipped Ukraine anti-tank missiles. He threatened Putin. Putin did not invade on his watch. 8 minutes ago, myata said: He sure did just that, by making Afghan government a sitting duck. There was no ground left for the West to defend there, this was a major betrayal. I'm not saying the war should have gone on indefinitely, but capitulating to the thugs was definitely not the way to end it. And that's what he does best, and always. Biden could have stopped any of it if he didn't like it. No one forced Biden to withdrawal as he did. Part of that agreement was Afghan peace talks. Biden owns that mess. 9 minutes ago, myata said: That says everything. I said so. Sigh, you are such a dishonest person. "ALEXANDER VINDMAN, a National Security Council specialist on Ukraine in the Trump administration who testified against the former president, told NatSec Daily that conversations... " Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
myata Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 3 minutes ago, User said: Putin did not invade on his watch. He already invaded. "Cancelling a meeting" isn't even a mosquito bite just a joke for Putin and the bunch. At least being kicked out of G8 was a real thing. Look you are trying to cling desperately to the alt-reality fairy tale that you created in your mind and the last thing I'll attempt is to convince the converted. Lifetime may not be enough as the previous experiences taught us. Here's the reality though: Syria: withdrew and abandoned positions. Afghanistan: engineering withdrawal of the West and return of the Taleban. Cowered to Kim with zero results, being played for a fool. Cowered to Putin, with zero results. The buffoon admires and all but worships totalitarian dictator thugs. The last thing he would do (and did) is standing to them. The results speak all and lying words can add nothing. This is the reality and I'm not going to discuss objective facts any longer. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 3 minutes ago, myata said: He already invaded. "Cancelling a meeting" isn't even a mosquito bite just a joke for Putin and the bunch. At least being kicked out of G8 was a real thing. You are talking in circles now. Putin had not yet invaded Ukraine full-scale invasion, as we were discussing here. He did more than cancel a meeting. I have outlined this to you several times now. Stop being dishonest. 4 minutes ago, myata said: This is the reality and I'm not going to discuss objective facts any longer. So... you are going to run away like you almost always do. You lie and run. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
myata Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 (edited) 12 minutes ago, User said: run away like I'm not going to babble with the converted forever about their fantasies, constructed alt-realities: each such attempt makes it only worse for them and wastes my time. So no: not a chance. The reality is for everyone to see; and it has been posted here yet again as a courtesy. See and learn if you still can. Edited July 12, 2024 by myata Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 6 minutes ago, myata said: I'm not going to babble with the converted forever about their fantasies, constructed alt-realities: each such attempt makes it only worse for them and wastes my time. So no: not a chance. The reality is for everyone to see; and it has been posted here yet again as a courtesy. See and learn if you still can. I backed up everything I said. I tore apart each of your responses piece by piece. Run away. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
Moonbox Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 1 hour ago, User said: Trump did it. He got them to increase spending before the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Just one article regarding this from 2019: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/pressed-by-trump-over-defense-germany-says-can-pay-more-for-nato-running-costs-idUSKBN1WQ1YQ/ Yes, but this was mostly lip-service. By the time Trump's term had ended, I think there were two countries outside of the US meeting the spending target. That number is 13 now (not Canada, lol) and mostly a result of the Russia invasion. 1 hour ago, User said: The main point of my response was not to praise Trump for all he did for NATO, it was to merely point out that most of his ire and criticism for not just NATO, but for countries in general, is that they are taking advantage of American spending on our military to provide them peace and stability in the world and for NATO, they need to pay more $$$. No argument there. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted July 12, 2024 Report Posted July 12, 2024 4 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Yes, but this was mostly lip-service. By the time Trump's term had ended, I think there were two countries outside of the US meeting the spending target. That number is 13 now (not Canada, lol) and mostly a result of the Russia invasion. That particular link was more about funding the costs of NATO, not total contributions to defense $$$, and yes, they did end up taking up a larger share of those costs. I also added this link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-16/nato-members-ramp-up-defense-spending-after-pressure-from-trump?embedded-checkout=true " NATO Members Ramp Up Defense Spending After Pressure From Trump Eleven allies met 2% guideline on defense expenditures in 2020" 5 minutes ago, Moonbox said: No argument there. Welcome to team Trump. Quote LOL, when people have to tell you they are ignoring you... From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE."
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